Please have a backbone, Linden Lab

does it bother you? to me it doesnt i just dont look at them as passionately as you do

It bothers me in that I might very well be paying money to be harrassed. Unless LL takes stronger and more visible steps to disincent that, then I shall ensure that I not pay a cent beyond the $9.95 "basic" setup fee.

Did anyone actually catch the fact that tolerance and freedom of harrassment is written into SL's TOS? And that freedom to harrass isn't? I did not read that LL is after a "3D Web" experience. If that's what they want -- and if that's what they think the majority of their customers want -- fine. Let them change policy officially, spell it out, so those of us who want to take a break from Dystopia can know up front that it's not what SL is here for. That's their right, but ONLY if they're advertising it truthfully.

If not, then it is fraud.

You are assuming that people speaking out here haven't had previous experiences with the racist that posted that pic. His intentions are known by people in our community from other incidents.

Please tell me what LL's current steps are? Not what you percieve them to be.

As for visible you have no right to know what is between LL and another user.

The Concentration Camp - was a pretty good copy of Crematoria 1 at Auschwitz/Birkenau and had the two builders roaming its halls dressed as german soldiers.As soon as it was discovered there was an almost universal protest.The ONLY thing missing from the place was any sign of the swastika so that in effect it did not breach TOS.Never the less after being presented with a photograph of said place the Lindens at the scene agreed it should be torn down.

The KKK incident was in fact - NOT a picture on someones wall but a group in SL going to clubs in full KKK regalia and burning crosses and ranting homophobic/racist veiws at people who were just out to play a dam game and have a laugh.Screenshots and chatlogs were presented to Linden Labs and the group responsible is still active in Second Life despite it's leader receiving numerous bans.

They say ignorance is bliss - there - now your not ignorant anymore.

Some of you in this thread are not in fact talking about freedom of speech your talking about anarchy.Even in a free and democratic society there is law.I could fully understand a copy of a crematoria built as a monument or as a museum display - this was neither.In the real world a KKK attack on a club complete with burning cross and chants would not be tolerated.

You think I'm the intolerant biggoted one? Lets talk about some of the more nefarious spots in SL then.Ever been to the sheep farm? it's a lovely place you can visit and butcher sheep in any inhumane way you can think of - ever been to the assylum? a charming place where you can go and have yourself shut in a padded room and be abused by the staff.Sick? nefarious? well maybe,but the point IS that these places are only an affront if you actually GO there - the people that made them and take part in their activities dont force their views/lifestyles down my throat by romping all over my land and hurling abuse at my friends.

In real life stalking is a crime - in real life making unsolicited threats on someones life is a crime, so PLEASE stop with the freedom of speech bullshit because someone is asking for some degree of action to be taken against people who are an affront to the community.

Making a difference in the real world? In the real world I was a Royal Marine and served in time of conflict and now I serve as an armed response officer in my countries Police Force so stop making assumptions about what and who people are in real life because this ISNT real life it's supposed to be a recreational activity.

In short - stop crusading for Anarchy and start using some common sense.

i am defending freedom of speech but another and more important thing, the fact some here seems to want that nothing happend in sl exept nice and happy events. I am sorry i dont think SL is a place for retirement and i will fight agains this too smooth vision

Thanks for taking the time to debase the dangerous ambiguity floating around in this thread, Sox.

Perception is the mirror of reality, Talen -- and it appears LL does not have any consistent steps they follow in such cases. That is the point of contention. As a customer of LL (I believe they've billed me that $9.95 already) I demand clarity and consistency in rule enforcement.

And as for visible, there are plenty of ways for action to be visible without violating privacy rights of another user. A very good parallel is news reporting of violent crime, in which the victim is usually unidentifiable. (Curious inversion, that.)

Agreed - thank you Sox, it is much appreciated.

Sox, I'm curious, where are these locations? Can you please post coordinates or drop me landmarks inworld? I'd like to visit and see for myself... thanks a lot.

Great post Sox. It sums up how I feel.

And just to be clear, "The Concentration Camp" was built on someone elses land under false pretenses that something else was being built. So that 'project' was unauthorized and on land they didnt own. Its not like people went out of their way to find it and say "Hey thats offensive!". It was more like "Hey, whats that offensive crap doing on MY land?"

hehe i wanna visit that too

Make sure you visit the crack house in boardman as well....meth labs in the kitchen...help yourself

People like you worry me.

People like you are too busy wondering what COULD be done and you dont stop and think about if it SHOULD be done.

People talk about SL being a mirror for real life and thats a more dangerous prospect than you think.While it's entirely possible that eventually the SL framework could be the way we use the internet it's also possible that its the way ANYONE could use it.

Is that what you want to build?

You want to build a medium thats a platform for Pushers,Rapists,Racists,Stalkers et al?Freedom of speech is like Marxism, it's an ideal that does not work in reality and the reason why is very very simple and has it's basis in an age old cliche'........

give some people an inch and they'll take a mile.

The very problem with the worldwide web is that there is NO control at all and its become a haven for all kinds of people that you would not want to run into in real life,why do you think that the surest way to convict a child molester in 2005 is to confiscate his PC and check out his hardrive?

Some of the posters in this thread are so shortsighted it's scary and leaves very little hope for Second Life as a medium of the future.Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing until it's stood in your living room with a gun at your head.You HAVE to have some kind of standards/law or your doomed to failure and the time to take action is NOW before it spirals out of control.

And thats my last word on this subject - if LL dont have the message by now then it's time to haul arse to another world.

So you are going to decide for us?



Can't it be a mix? The internet has, by nature, always mirrored RL, and SL is no exception. Why worry so much about how others may use it. Why not concentrate on how you use it, as long as others aren't harassing you.



A platform for Pushers, rapists, racists and Stalkers?? Huh? Dramatize much? Wouldn't they have better luck actually being able to capture, touch or assault their victims? On the internet, one simply has to logoff to escape. I don't see an SL rapist or stalker as being particularly dangerous or threatening, but more pathetic and stupid. I wouldn't think they would be much of a threat until the took it to RL.

Freedom of speech has and does work in cultures all over the world. Freedom of speech means just that. The right to express ones views. It doesn't carry any additional right, such as harassment, violence or anything beyond speech. You seem to be adding all sorts of things to it.



Gee...do you work as a warden at a prison? Who are you to decide what's right for everyone? The BEST thing about the internet is it's lack of control. It's freedom. It's originality. It's ability to trancend the bonds of corporations and politics and religion.

You speak as if the internet is brand new and hasn't survived on it's own just fine for 25 years. Eeek..control it or it will somehow doom us in the next 10 days.



Still don't understand what message they are supposed to get? That folks are paying them money and being creative and having fun? That there are always gonna be some bad apples? I'd love harsher penalties for any hate or haressment displayed within SL, but it's just not the huge problem and drama that you seem to think it is.

Computer intrusion (i.e. hacking)
Password trafficking
Copyright (software, movie, sound recording) piracy
Internet harassment
Internet bomb threats

Just a few ILLEGAL activities that can be related to here ALL of which are punishable by fines/jail terms in the real world.No I'm not a prison warder I'm a Police Officer - something you'd already know if you'd read the whole thread.

Players harassing others,players threatning others repeatedly are not banned in Second Life for things that they COULD be jailed for in real life - why?

I just hope we don't end up as a cross between Neopets and Mary Poppins because we are so 'regulated' and afraid to do anything that may be in any way offensive to anyone, i suppose we can already rule out any kind of 'art statement' along the lines that modern museums have shown in the last couple of decades, the crucifix in a jar of urine etc would most likely cause a SL protest regardless of the artist's intent, so we are already one level below the level of sensitivity endured in real life....

There is a well established technique for atacking an idea or concept when your argument is either weak, or not suitable to be openly revealed.

This technique is used by two sorts of people.
Those without clear minds, who just "know they are right" and cobble any old things together.
And those who see clearly, and use it as a deliberate, if dishonest, tactic.

The technique is to attack the target, by confusing and mixing it with another different issue which almost everybody will agree is bad.

So here.

Some are opposed to free speech, and wish to ram their own viewpoint down everyones throat, and silence dissenters. They often don't mean to, they don't think they do ! To them their own view is just so naturally and obviously correct that they feel no decent person could disagree. Thats how bigotry feels to a bigot.

So what are these people, right here on this forum, endlesssly trying to muddle this issue together with?

Why, the issue of harrassment, of attacks, of stalking, of persecution.

If you can confuse these two together, you can use the obvious badness of the second to try to justify suppression of the first.

Just because, when harassment is occurring, one party or other may fairly often express non-mainstream views or beliefs, does not mean these two are the same.

All lions are animals, but not all animals are lions.

Maybe many persecutors do have non-standard views.
It does NOT FOLLOW that many people with non-standard (non-american establishment?) views are persecutors.

Please get it clear. I think virtually ALL OF US, except the pathologically insane, are oppposed to harassment and bullying of the innocent who want to keep themselves to themselves. And want LL to act against them.

The free speech issue is entirely separate. Please try to keep it so.

The key word there is COULD....every case is different ...everyone that does these things in real life doesn't necessarily go to jail ...why would you assume that everyone that does this in SL should be banned. There could be extenuating circumstances....lets say someone talks a newbie into placing anti-gay sign telling the newbie..." just an old joke that everyone loves" Should the newbie be banned because they were gullible and stupid?

Linden lab has to do more than be a police officer they also have to be judge and jury and research the facts before they make decisions.

But it's not my man, this is a world of endless possibilities, providing I do not intentionally harass my fellow SL people, but there can be situations where there is no harmfull intent but both parties are wronged for example, what If I was gay, and had a female avatar, talked to a male avatar who didn't realise I was just a female avatar and role playing a female for fun but he later found out I was a gay male and because of him being a fundementalist Christian he became upset (I don't know if this is a good example or not, not being any of these things except male, but work with me here) Is that just hard cheese for him? or has he been wronged? was I just innocently role playing a female for fun, because I could, or was my intent something more sinister? what if he, thinking I was a female, made an anti-gay comment? would he then be at fault and booted out of the game? this is the gray area I was trying to clarify earlier on, how can you tell intent? should certain limits be placed on what we can and cannot do?

ohmygoduseperiods!

"made an anti-gay comment? would he then be at fault and booted out of the game?"

omg, daz.

Are you just simply assuming, by way of example, that making an anti-gay comment to a private individual who is gay in private conversation could conceivably be justification for booting from the game? Not an "insult", not "name calling" , but in the course of normal conversation? Nothing more than a "comment".

I would hope that even in direct conversation with a gay, anyone who had beliefs that it was wrong to be gay should be allowed to express that opinion politely if this question came up naturally in conversation. Even to a known gay. Provide there was no harassment, attempts to force their opinion, or insulting tone, and that they dropped the subject the moment they were asked to do so.

Are you unable to conceive of a belief system where someone can honestly believe that homosexuality is wrong, and have the right to express that view if the topic arises in normal conversation between consenting conversationalists?

I'm sure I must have misunderstood you.

Something that they DONT do - which was the whole point of this thread before the 'freedom fighters, stepped in.

To correct all those saying we are trying to accuse Linden Lab of inaction where they don't deserve it.... The Nazi concentration camp incident with the self-proclaimed Nazi WAS investigated by Linden Labs. What did she get? A 14-17 day suspension, and she is back in game. Saw her out the other night. The Lindens are WELL aware of this, as she says in the SL Herald interview she even talked to them on the phone and they consider her a Nazi etc. but they STILL HAVENT perma banned her. She claims she has been suspended 8 times. Her "associate" grandduke ferdinand is responsible for the Nazi concentration camp (Building it with her) AND the KKK picture. Obviously this all ties back to two people, and the Lindens are doing SHIT about it.






Grandduke Ferdinand also helped Katja (By his own confession) build the "SS Training Camp" (Nazi Concentration Camp)