Is it wrong to post a landmark to a place...

Any position from the Lindens yet?

They are very conspicuous by absence. The thread is still not locked, so has this come down to the community doing the work for them?

Neg ratings, half-baked excuses, stolen property and lies. That is your reward

Hold your heads up though, because you stand up for what is right, even though Lindens do not. I am proud you are my neighbors.

This whole affair disturbs me quite a bit.

1. Receiving stolen goods: I bought an item from Imagoel... when I first started she was really helpful in SL, and I bought some stuff to show appreciation for being helpful.
Turns out, its stolen. Great. I deleted the items I bought rather than continue using someone's stolen items.

Everyone who bought items from her should get a refund, or the money should be taken from Imagoel and given to the actual creators.

2. Chilling effect: if the Lindens let this go without stiffly punishing Imagoel, then I and many others will NOT make items in SL. If the primary protection for content developers (the DRM system) can be avoided, exploited, etc then who is going to make items...knowing the entire time they make them that someone can just come steal them?

The primary basis of SL is *user-created* content, and if that content can be stolen, then users will stop making it. It seems ridiculous to have to point out that the BASIS of the ENTIRE SL economy is under attack by Imagoel and those like her.

As long as she is online, I will create nothing, nor will I purchase land or anything else.
SL is just a 3D chat as far as I am concerned. The building and the enforcement of the administration is currently too flawed to rely on.

3. Neg-rating falls down: We see what neg-rating is worth... it's the Prisoner's Dilemma.
If you neg-rate someone, they can just automatically neg you back... and there's nothing that can be done. So who is going to neg someone?

Dump the worthless neg-rating system and make it ALL abuse reports *and ACT ON THEM*.

Personally, Imagoel and everyone who supports her should be blown off the SL system and good riddance to bad rubbish.

I came to SL from Blaxxun looking for a good place to express some 3D and scripting creativity... and one of the main "selling points" was the DRM system. I "bought in" expecting better than what the reality turns out to be.

I hope the Lindens read this, and take it to heart.

I think that it's very honorable for you to delete the stolen items, even though you purchased them thinking they were legit and from the actual creator.
FYI: Many of the stolen items were removed, but last I checked there was a green bed being sold that had Tala Fate as the creator. I sent an IM to Tala to let her know, just in case she didn't or she had given permission for the bed to be sold.

It seems that LL may at least be paying attention to the situation...see /20/c0/25648/1.html

My thoughts: There's no rule in the TOS saying anything about stealing other's stuff, just that people are responsable for protecting their own creations. But there is a line in TOS forbiding the use of explots in the system. *puts on the "I've done this before in another game" voice of experience.* If it can be prooved that someone found an exploit in the system and used it to make/sell other people's items, then they're in violation of the TOS. If a mentor violates the rules of the game...any game...they ought to be removed from their position. I don't know what the rules are governing mentors (are there any? Someone explain?) but this should be one if it isn't already. As it's relative to SL: giving someone the job of mentor or instructor indicates that an individual has been shown to be worthy of a certian degree of trust and respect along with having a sense of responsability. If they subsequently show that they aren't any of those things, they need to be sent packing.

That was also posted back in October about 1.5.6. We are now on 1.5.11.

I finally just got through all this thread first off ....Aimee and Mistress, How dare you start a Thief attack without me...hmmpf...oh wait I was on vacation ok your both forgiven..hehe.

Actually, I am very disheartened to hear this especially knowing all that several of us have done to try to prevent this in the past. With no recompense and no support to our rights of our creations currently this unfortunately is the only way we can speak our minds and opinions.

Aimee, Mistress have either of you heard anymore from Phillip after the 10k bug reward I have seen nothing else yet our stuff is still out in the world being copied freely and transmitted for sale by others without remorse.

I havent created any new content other than building for almost two months now because I see no point to it until we are given some security. Anyway, I digress but maybe its time we start a List of things that were stolen from Creators and post pics of said Items. This way people if they recognize them could help in stoppingtheir sale.

Id almost be for setting up a Bill Board like LL has for Telehub advertisments allowing content creators to come post pics of things they have had stolen and have had pointed out to them. In addition to this being able to drop a note card in with full descriptions of said Items and where they are currently being sold by unauthorized dealers. Im sorry but if LL isnt going to do something we need to do it and get the word out. I am tired of sitting on my duff and being Mr. Nicey Nice about shit.

If you can't make em stop at least ruin them by killing their sales. In addition make the bill board a mandantory stop for all Newbies before they venture off buying stuff so that they dont get duped.

Ok guess I better hush for now before I get a negative attitude again.

Shadow

Sorry Shadow! We wont leave you out again

The status so far, Philip paid a visit to Imagoel's site and agreed that it was a violation of CS. We then had a very productive conversation about how to prevent this kind of theft in the future. Philip takes this issue very seriously and I am convinced he is going to make every effort to create a fair and balanced resolution in future versions of SL.

As of now, I haven't heard from Imagoel, and her entire store is GONE. I don't know if this was due to Linden action, or if she took it down herself. Given her level of defiance throughout this arguement, I suspect the Lindens made her take down the store. She IS, however, still a Mentor and Instructor.

This issue damn near drove me out of the game. There was a good 3 weeks where I logged in for no more than the occasional 10 minutes to answer *PREEN* requests. But my discussion with Philip has filled me with optimism and I think you guys should feel hopeful too.

Until better systems are in place to prevent theft, we as content creators need to stick together and watch out for each other. If we find another thief, I think our actions can boil down to the following routine:

1. Notify the creator and ask the thief to take the item down immediately.
2. If they don't comply in a reasonable time (a day or two) Report an abuse. Site this thread if you wish.
3. If no Linden action is taken, notify the content creation community here in the forums. Include the location and individual doing the stealing (remember no personal attacks. Just let us know what's going on)
4. We can then ALL issue abuse reports as a community.
5. If the Lindens STILL don't take action, we can then discuss how we can work within the TOS to make the stealing activity unprofitable for the thief. This may include mass neg rating, or other near-abuse-but-not-quite-TOS-violation activities.

I doubt it will come to the later stages anymore, but we know we have options when the time comes.

-Aimee

and de-mentoring is in order!

de-mentoring of the demented!

WOW!

I finally got thru this thread LOL

I'd like to echo what Shad said. It's time for us to do something guys.

As creators we have loosly banded together to fight this. A lot of times it's because someone reports to us they see our items somewhere or we run across them ourselves and in the proccess see someone elses we are familiar with. We take action through the "grapevine" or here in the forums. But there is no way of knowing how many items like this are out there. I'm sure the numbers would blow our minds.

That said, I may be crazy to take this on... LOL

I built on Shads idea above to form a plan to fight this. After just speaking with him about it we have decided we will be setting aside a spot on our Carlisle property as we begin to rebuild Jazzy Jade Wolf there.

Here is our loosely knit plan...
Create a spot within our build (We chose Carlisle because of the amount of land and prims we have available at that location) to house a kind of Info area on unauthorized selling of items. This would include advise on selling, reselling and creating items for sale. Like ethics and general rules of thumb to follow.

We would also display creator submitted pics of items being sold or given away unauthorized. The Criteria for these would be as follows...

1) Only creator submitted pics accepted. (This would aleviate any "he said she said" problems)

2) We would ask that the creator has informed the "seller/giver" that it is unacceptable. (Meaning this would be a final resolution to no response by the Seller or refusal to stop.)

3) The pics would need to be submitted with a specific unauthorized seller / location that can be verified at the time of submission. Also maybe include any Authorized sellers so there is an easy way to verify reports of "I saw this at the info place and so and so is selling it".

4) Items out there in general, say found on someones property, would be listed as unauthorized to sell or give away,with no specific seller/giver or location (this to protect the innocent buyer)

We still have to work out how to display the pics and make the info about each item easy to access.

Our intention is not to create a witch hunt or drama. We want a place where prople can see what is out there and help eachother protect our content.

*Some things to work out... This is where we can use some idea's from the community.

1)How do we protect those that truly do make a mistake or newbies that dont know better?

2)Do we create an ongoing list of those that resolve it with one creator but continue with others? Like a two strikes you're out?

3)Should we inform a seller they are to be added to the list with a grace of maybe a couple of days? Would this take care of #1 and make sure all subissions are legitamate problems?

4) We want to come up with a way to also recognize those on the list or with pics that have truly mended their ways like maybe a last sighting date and remove them after a given time period. "Or a This vendor has informed us on 00/00/00 they no longer sell this item. (Like I said we dont want a "witch hunt"

Anyway, That is the basis of our idea. I hope it has some wheels turning. We welcome any thoughts or suggestions from the community on how to ethically and fairly institute our ideas.

In any case we will start at "home" with our own items and welcome anyone who would like to help and/or participate.
We have a large community of creators that work hard to put out some awesome stuff and I know if we band together in world we can make an impact and tell the world we are not going to bend over anymore.

Please respond here or IM us inworld if you have any sugestions or ideas.

Mahalo
P

Yes, Pahoa and I spoke about this earlier and as a point of Notice this isnt to create a black list or cause a battle.

Recently in the past there was a group that was going to get together and "RATE" places as Authorized Sellers apparently this group failed in as to my knowledge it disbanded.

The only option is for content information awareness if it involves outlining dishonest players that dont want to submit to morals then so be it.

Anyway as Pahoa Mentioned for all Content Creators please reply if your interested in this especially ones that have been ripped off and thier product line diluted.

Sincerely, Shadow Weaver

I havn't made things to sell in quite some time. After reading through this thread, i'm even more discouraged to start up again. This is just rediculous. When the time comes when LL finally initiates SOLID SECURITY, -then- i'll start putting MY hard work and MY creativity into works to be distributed throughout the SL community.

Oh... and for future thoughts: Who wants to go into buying an island with me!!?? -grins-

Well, I posted something earlier in the thread Shadow. But it didn't seem to have any interest outside myself. It was an idea similar to yours in that it is players helping players. I edited out my post, but I"ll put it here for you in case you are interested.

I stated:

Aimee,

Believe me, I know how much Philip stopping by and taking the time to listen and try to solve this problem can do for the spirits. One question I have to ask though is why in the hell does it have to escalate all the way up to the CEO to get this kind of stuff taken care of? Are the rest of the liasons and other support staff incapable of handling this in any kind of a timely manner? Or are they just ambivalent to it? It seems it has to reach a boiling point in the forums before anyone will do anything. I remember when Launa and Francis first had the hug attachment stolen. That it has taken this long, and this many hoops were involved is quite discouraging. I have an incredible amount of respect for Philip, and also for Robin. Beyond that, I have to say the response to this problem has been pathetic.

Hey Pen
When I posted I didn't realize you had already. Did I come into it after you had edited your posting?

Goes to show you when you get an idea, there no doubt was a great mind there before you.

This is a great idea and I see some great points in your post.
We too, want to focus on the positive side of getting info out there and people aware.
We primarily want to give creators a tool they can use to ensure their creations are being offered by others legitimately. As well as provide buyers with the means to know they are getting the real/original authorized product.

An example is a recent post about a tree rezzor. Seems the one actually being sold may have along the way been diluted/modded and doesnt work the same as the original.

We'd love to work with you on this and be one of the locations for info. It's a big task and working together with others to create a system that is both informative and fair can only be a benefit to all.

Lets get together soon!

P

Does anyone have an update as to the status of the RATE Group?

Kats I was invited to 1 or 2 meetings and I havent heard anything since. I havent had a chance to talk to Drift lately but to my knowledge it pretty much fell apart.

I left when we were informed that we weren't going to be checking the merchandise of the people we gave the seals to, and that we would work on the 'honor system.' If the honor system worked, there would be no need for RATE, so it just became pointless to me.

Jonquille, I am sure that is possibly the reason others decided to do the same thing. No system is perfect and I don't even expect the one Pahoa and I would like to establish will be either. But its worth a try to get the word out.

Shadow

I guess that the solutions could be to establish some sort of system within the community and/or keep alerting Lindens and the community whenever this happens again (if we find it given that the world is so big).

Perhaps we, as a group, should put a bounty on stolen items. Basically, we could pledge some amount (1k maybe) for anybody that brings to our attention a stolen item on sale that results in suspension of the thief. All members of our group could pitch in for the reward.

Requiring suspension is necessary because some people could try to rip us off by using an Alt to place our stuff up for sale, then turn themselves in for the reward.

I am sure there are lots of problems with this idea. I haven't really thought it over. It's been a long day

Aimee I have thought about it a bit your Idea is good but like you said without the ability to suspend the mere thought of what you outlined alone makes the whole thing null.

We have no power or control over our stuff and cannot without LL help truly affect the individuals other than through reputation control. Thats really all we have to protect us right now without linden enforcement.

Sad but unfortunately True.

Shadow

Hey Pahoa! Yes, you came along after I had edited out my post for a silly reason. haha.. At any rate, yes, I would love to work with you on this project. I'm about to be swamped again with two other projects, but I'll make time for this one as well because it *is* something I've wanted to do for a long time, and I do think it can be of at least some help to the community.