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A few words about the Metaverse Justice Watch

Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,690
09-02-2005 15:46
From: Seth Kanahoe
Wow. And so this thread becomes an advertisement for a virtual law firm handling virtual defamation and discrimination cases.

Wow.


Sl is a platform Seth, not a game. And if Anshe can pursue her real-estate business and Aimee her pantie business (and the resut of us aimees panties) and Chi[p his fashion business, and Enbaran can state that business men don't make excuses, they make profit. They why should Katykiwi and I be barred from pursuins our profession. Or is it just that because we are lawyers you feel we are a lower order of life, and not entitled to the same rights as everyone else.

We are forming this firm to help residents out. Facilitate the resolutions of disputes between amenable parties, and yes we also feel strongly about the need to have an even handed enforcement of the TOS.

Besides, if you hire a lawyer, do you hire one you like, or one who will fight for your interests?
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Lebeda 208,209
Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
09-02-2005 15:47
From: Jake Reitveld
Sl is a platform Seth, not a game. And if Anshe can pursue her real-estate business and Aimee her pantie business (and the resut of us aimees panties) and Chi[p his fashion business, and Enbaran can state that business men don't make excuses, they make profit. They why should Katykiwi and I be barred from pursuins our profession. Or is it just that because we are lawyers you feel we are a lower order of life, and not entitled to the same rights as everyone else.

We are forming this firm to help residents out. Facilitate the resolutions of disputes between amenable parties, and yes we also feel strongly about the need to have an even handed enforcement of the TOS.

Besides, if you hire a lawyer, do you hire one you like, or one who will fight for your interests?

Who hired you?
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Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,690
09-02-2005 15:47
From: Nolan Nash
Who hired you?


Noone Nolan, I just like to fight.
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ALCHEMY -clothes for men.

Lebeda 208,209
Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
09-02-2005 15:48
From: Jake Reitveld
We are forming this firm to help residents out. Facilitate the resolutions of disputes between amenable parties, and yes we also feel strongly about the need to have an even handed enforcement of the TOS.


Bullshit. You charge by the hour. All inferences apply. (grin)
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Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,690
09-02-2005 15:48
From: Nolan Nash
Then it appears as though you have some things to talk to Prokofy about.


And yes. this is a good example.
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ALCHEMY -clothes for men.

Lebeda 208,209
katykiwi Moonflower
Esquirette
Join date: 5 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,489
09-02-2005 15:49
From: Nolan Nash
Who hired you?
Its held in confidence.
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Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,690
09-02-2005 15:49
From: Cienna Samiam
Bullshit. You charge by the hour. All inferences apply. (grin)



Haven't charged anyone yet.

Of course any retainers taken are in confidence.
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ALCHEMY -clothes for men.

Lebeda 208,209
katykiwi Moonflower
Esquirette
Join date: 5 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,489
09-02-2005 15:50
From: Jake Reitveld
Noone Nolan, I just like to fight.
You see, its in our blood.
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
09-02-2005 15:53
From: Jake Reitveld

But trust me, that is not always the case. Some comments, no matter how innocuos their intent, also carry with them a harmful interpretation. Part of the the reason for the TOS is to promote an environment where people can comment and feel safe for the retaliation of personal attacks. These forums are meant as aplace to debate issues. Sometimes we cannot always tell when someone is offended by the remarks. But there are some that we must accept could make someone uncomfortable.


There is no guarantee that we will go through life always being comfortable and never being offended. That is part of the problem with political correctness.

From: someone

BUt really if you want to debate anshe's sincerity stay with the issues and the facts.


The fact is, many people have witnessed Anshe do this in the forums over here 1.5 year stint here. Seeing someone act in such a manipulative way goes straight to character, and that is an issue, especially when you are dealing with a powerful resident lobbying Linden Lab.

From: someone

But paraodying her accent or her positng style, even if there are disticntions, is an attack.


From: someone

But making fun of her grammer, or her racial background, even if it is not racism, is jsut mean.


I personally did not parody or mock her, I stated that I find the way she alternates between personas to be disingenous. Others have expressed the same sentiment in this thread. It would be no different if I were to feign not understanding English when I come under criticism - so I alternate between fluent English speaker and straight off the boat Venezuelan when it suits me. You can see the technique from a mile a way, and it is offensive. Of course, so is using this thread to launch your new business platform.
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Cristiano


ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
09-02-2005 15:54
From: Sansarya Caligari


Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: B. C., Canada
Posts: 758 Quote:
Originally Posted by Siggy Romulus
ALL YOUR CONCERNS ARE BELONG TO US! ... FOR GREAT JUSTICE!

Not the only example of pigdin English used to ridicule Anshe, nor the only one to imply things about her activities within SL, nor the only one to use a racial slur. If I had the energy to go looking for the others I would. Just keep going through the thread that this came from to find other shining examples of race/gender/language slurs against Anshe. Whether or not she has used her race/gender in the past to extract sympathy from others, this is clearly racist.

link: /120/e2/59836/6.html



Well I'm fraid you fucked it up there - thats a theme from a video game.. in which it says 'all your base are belong to us - for great justice'

The theme has been used over and over and over in many ways shapes and forms..

Also - I think what your looking for 'broken english' -- 'pigin english' is whats spoken in Papua New Guinea -- where you hear lovely phrases like:

Me kissum penus belon u mastah... (or I am holding your peanuts, sir)..

Also 'racism' isn't my style.. I find hating people over ethnicity very unimaginative..

for example... I don't hate Anshe because of she's chinese or whatever..

.



wasn't this thread about that sucky group? hmm seems the originators would like to derail it into a sympathy fest for the douchebags of liberty.
SIggy.
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals.

From: Jesse Linden
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
Cory Edo
is on a 7 second delay
Join date: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,851
09-02-2005 16:00
I find your use of the term ... to be offensive to women.

You're on my hit list right after The Daily Show using that term for Robert Novak.
Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
09-02-2005 16:07
From: Siggy Romulus
Well I'm fraid you fucked it up there - thats a theme from a video game.. in which it says 'all your base are belong to us - for great justice'

The theme has been used over and over and over in many ways shapes and forms..

Also - I think what your looking for 'broken english' -- 'pigin english' is whats spoken in Papua New Guinea -- where you hear lovely phrases like:

Me kissum penus belon u mastah... (or I am holding your peanuts, sir)..

Also 'racism' isn't my style.. I find hating people over ethnicity very unimaginative..

for example... I don't hate Anshe because of she's chinese or whatever..




wasn't this thread about that sucky group? hmm seems the originators would like to derail it into a sympathy fest for the douchebags of liberty.
SIggy.

I dunno Sig, it seems to me, that in the face of what they realize is overwhelming opposition, they are simply resorting to attacking people's characters by combing through threads to find and expose what they see as any hint of bigotry or racism. The fact that they are not even debating the issues anymore lends credence to this.
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
09-02-2005 16:10
From: Cory Edo
I find your use of the term "douchebag" to be offensive to women.

You're on my hit list right after The Daily Show using that term for Robert Novak.


Well being offended over feminine hygene is more telling of you than to me :)

You wanna talk offensive? Condoms

They make lil freddy look like a Klansman.
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The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals.

From: Jesse Linden
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,690
09-02-2005 16:16
From: Cristiano Midnight
There is no guarantee that we will go through life always being comfortable and never being offended. That is part of the problem with political correctness.



The fact is, many people have witnessed Anshe do this in the forums over here 1.5 year stint here. Seeing someone act in such a manipulative way goes straight to character, and that is an issue, especially when you are dealing with a powerful resident lobbying Linden Lab.





I personally did not parody or mock her, I stated that I find the way she alternates between personas to be disingenous. Others have expressed the same sentiment in this thread. It would be no different if I were to feign not understanding English when I come under criticism - so I alternate between fluent English speaker and straight off the boat Venezuelan when it suits me. You can see the technique from a mile a way, and it is offensive. Of course, so is using this thread to launch your new business platform.


Hey you want to call ansne manipultaive thats fine. Whether or not its true, I won;t venture to say. But pulling the chinese card, or the venzuelan card is different. And Yes I gree we can never be comfortable, but we can debate without resorting to insult. My positng on this thread is hardly a devise to launch my new business. You at least know that I have consitently ranted on these same topics for months. We have disagreed on them from time to time for months.

Yes I did launch a new business, but I think coming in here and risking pissing everyone off is not the way to make it successful, entirely, so I come in here and advocate what I beleive. Whether or not there was a reitveld and mooflower, you at least have to know that I would be saying the same things.
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Lebeda 208,209
Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,690
09-02-2005 16:17
From: Nolan Nash
I dunno Sig, it seems to me, that in the face of what they realize is overwhelming opposition, they are simply resorting to attacking people's characters by combing through threads to find and expose what they see as any hint of bigotry or racism. The fact that they are not even debating the issues anymore lends credence to this.


Who did I call a racist?

I am happy to debate the issues any time. You just gotta be there debating back on the issues, and not slinging mud.
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Lebeda 208,209
Fiona Peregrine
Java Junkie
Join date: 9 Jan 2004
Posts: 99
09-02-2005 16:25
As a complete and utter derailment, I'm fascinated by whether there are any liability concerns you two hold with stating that you are practicing law within Second Life. This is a thorny practice at best, to say in a virtual world you are going to accept retainers for ToS violations. What would you two do if someone did in fact get banned anyway? Someone who stood to lose RL income and decided they were not happy with your services here? I hope your insurance policy has a rider to cover you holding yourselves out as attorneys who will take retainers. Most professional associations have strong ethical codes of conduct surrounding this issue of online practice and many carriers won't touch it with a ten foot pole. Personally, I would not be willing to put my RL assets on the line so I hope you've thought through all the ramifications. Most ethical practitioners I know would run away from the notion of saying they were practicing law, or many other professional disciplines, in this type of setting due to such concerns. In case you haven't noticed, the line between RL and SL can get rather thin. Puzzling at best.
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Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
09-02-2005 16:31
From: Jake Reitveld
Hey you want to call ansne manipultaive thats fine. Whether or not its true, I won;t venture to say. But pulling the chinese card, or the venzuelan card is different. .


I didn't say Anshe was manipulative because she was Chinese. I said she was using her own language as a tool of manipulation. That is not "pulling the chinese card", especially when Anshe has put her Chinese heritage right out there front and center. I have not made my being Venezuelan central to my business or my persona. I doubt most people even know I'm Venezuelan, but you can damn well bet most people know Anshe is Chinese. Why? She has stated it over and over and intertwined it with her business. Nothing wrong with being a proud of one's heritage. It crosses the line when you pander to stereotypes for effect.

As I said, I find it incredibly transparent and offensive, as do others, and it is a well observed tactic she has used to empire build her business. Now that she is the spokesperson for a group purporting itself to be about justice and security (read: financial security, not safety) for all SL residents, and with Anshe BEING THE SPOKESPERSON of said group, it is relevant.
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Cristiano


ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.

Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
09-02-2005 16:32
From: Jake Reitveld
Who did I call a racist?

I am happy to debate the issues any time. You just gotta be there debating back on the issues, and not slinging mud.


Refer to Katy's many posts - that is who has been throwing around the word racist.
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Cristiano


ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.

Cory Edo
is on a 7 second delay
Join date: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,851
09-02-2005 16:36
From: Siggy Romulus
Well being offended over feminine hygene is more telling of you than to me :)

You wanna talk offensive? Condoms

They make lil freddy look like a Klansman.



I believe Tom Robbins said it best when he stated, "The vagina is a self-cleaning organ."

*hands Sig a pack of rainbow colored condoms*
katykiwi Moonflower
Esquirette
Join date: 5 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,489
09-02-2005 16:39
From: Cristiano Midnight
Refer to Katy's many posts - that is who has been throwing around the word racist.
Cris, did you bother reading my specific references to specific examples and specific acts? Or are you making generalizations as you are accusing me of doing. I was pretty specific. I threw nothing no matter how you seem to be catching it lately.
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
09-02-2005 16:40
From: Jake Reitveld
Who did I call a racist?

I am happy to debate the issues any time. You just gotta be there debating back on the issues, and not slinging mud.
I wasn't addressing you, though the fact you think i was speaks for itself.

I don't "gotta" do anything, least of all "debate" with someone who confesses to gaming the forums by arguing through sarcastic rhetoric to get his jollies.

And save the lawyer crap. What you do in your first life has no bearing here.

Dragging yours, and other's RLs into a debate on a virtual world is a low tactic.
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katykiwi Moonflower
Esquirette
Join date: 5 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,489
09-02-2005 16:42
From: Fiona Peregrine
As a complete and utter derailment, I'm fascinated by whether there are any liability concerns you two hold with stating that you are practicing law within Second Life. This is a thorny practice at best, to say in a virtual world you are going to accept retainers for ToS violations. What would you two do if someone did in fact get banned anyway? Someone who stood to lose RL income and decided they were not happy with your services here? I hope your insurance policy has a rider to cover you holding yourselves out as attorneys who will take retainers. Most professional associations have strong ethical codes of conduct surrounding this issue of online practice and many carriers won't touch it with a ten foot pole. Personally, I would not be willing to put my RL assets on the line so I hope you've thought through all the ramifications. Most ethical practitioners I know would run away from the notion of saying they were practicing law, or many other professional disciplines, in this type of setting due to such concerns. In case you haven't noticed, the line between RL and SL can get rather thin. Puzzling at best.
We arent holding ourselves out to be attorneys...we are, in fact, in reality, real life honest to goodness licensed attorneys. Imagine that!
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
09-02-2005 16:44
From: katykiwi Moonflower
We arent holding ourselves out to be attorneys...we are, in fact, in reality, real life honest to goodness licensed attorneys. Imagine that!


Last time I checked, lawyers are "admitted"....surely a real lawyer would know this.
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
09-02-2005 16:45
From: katykiwi Moonflower
We arent holding ourselves out to be attorneys...we are, in fact, in reality, real life honest to goodness licensed attorneys. Imagine that!

Are you licensed to practice in all 50 states and all the countries in which the diverse population of SL dwell? Or is this just a scare tactic in hopes of modifying behavior?
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Fiona Peregrine
Java Junkie
Join date: 9 Jan 2004
Posts: 99
09-02-2005 16:45
From: katykiwi Moonflower
We arent holding ourselves out to be attorneys...we are, in fact, in reality, real life honest to goodness licensed attorneys. Imagine that!


That doesn't address how you plan to practice ethically in this environment or how you intend to cover yourselves against liability. I think the fact that you avoided my actual question and reacted by being patronizing is interesting.
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Well behaved women rarely make history-

Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
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