Buying and Selling Land

Actually Mike, that's a great idea, a contractual time period on the land. . . my suggestion of land NEVER being be able to sold to a player might be too harsh. . .

my only concerns would be, how long should that time period be? should it be related to the size of the plot somehow? should it be a fixed time.

I'm assuming if you wanted to not pay the tier costs for your land, before your building contract runs out, then your only auction would be to release it back to LL to be auctioned. . .

I think that this would make land barrony less desirable, as it would require a larger investment of money and time.

I think at the end of your contract, or whenever after that you decided to sell your land, there should be a grace period of a certain amount of time where the land could be bought and sold as much and to as many people as wanted. This would still allow for land brokering.. .

I buy a 4,096 plot. I have to hold it for 6 months. During that time, I develop a water park that is love by all in the game. At the end of the six months, I want to move on to other projects in another spot. I sell a land broker my land, plus the water park. That person then either sells to another broker or to an end user. Once it ends up in the hands of a new user, then that person would be contracted to keep the land for a development period.

Now, the problem with this is if the land broker gets caught with the land after the grace period. .. maybe they hire someone to develop their land, so that the endo fo the development period, it's worth more? Or, maybe the grace period wouldn't be an amount of time. . .maybe after the initial developer, it could pass hands from one broker to another until someone took 'developer' status. Someone not claiming developer status wouldn't be able to profit from the land for dwell and such.

Not sure, this is sort of a rough idea, and some of the people that would rather treat SL like Carrion, with them the vultures, are gonna cry fowl (sorry for the pun). But, I think they're are a significant number of people unhappy with the current system to consider ways of changing it.

catherine, i am telling you how to bid to win land below market value based on the reality of land speculators costs and risk adversity. this requires you to read what i am saying with an open mind and understand that under this system of USD everyone wins. LL, land speculator, and affluent player. there is one loser - players unable or unwilling to pay in USD and unable to earn enough L$ - because now the USD is king.

these margins are used by land speculators to remain profitable at market value. if you bid market value, you will always beat the speculator.

1800 USD is for a gridded sim. gridded sims are of greater value because they can be retailed to all levels of consumers at market price. i am really concerned that i had to even post this paragraph.

i am in favour of public land being returned to LL but not all land. there is a simple reason for this and it is as a player, not a speculator. LL charges money for land rights on the auctions as a way of recouping the cost of setting up a new sim. if the land was returned to LL, land would not retain value. i don't believe enough player be willing to shell out money for land rights.

as a player who is not affluent at all, i was able to by a sim with left over student bursary and loan money from the summer term. i feel confident that down the road, when i get bored, or if RL required that money, i could sell it and recoup my money fairly quickly. if i were to get 0$ back, i wouldn't pay a penny for it since it retains no value and reason that my tier payment should be enough for LL. LL would not be able to cover the cost of new servers without raising tier fees to offset server purchases and set ups. then i would be even less likely to "own" land.

being able to sell land rental rights promotes the value of land and encourages players to tier up because they may lose money, but they won't lose it all. if land retains no value, affluent players will bid up the best spots, and less affluent players will have less of a competitive edge to access those lands.

Let us say that LL is pushing out 2 sims of land per day. Let us say the market can naturally bare land at the current value of 8 L$/m at todays exchange (because really the land value is tied to USD), which makes 520000 L$ or 2200 USD. To maintain a 10% profit over 1 month, a land speculator cannot afford to pay much over 1800 USD.

now to really push land prices, all land on the auctions must be pushed. continously. 3600 USD a day, 21000 USD per week as a minimum. if the land wasn't selling, could any players hope to maintain this pace? if anyone had this kind of money, wouldn't they be investing in something better than virtual land? yes!

the reason anyplayer would bid this high is because thier sales are recovering this money.

so why are land prices really going up? because people have waited months at a chance at more non snow land.

last note for now -

base price for land is 0.10 USD/m2 - 655 USD per sim.

Jauani - I salute you!

"I Was A Teen Age Land Baron."

Ok, middel aged.

Time to leap in the deep end ....

Duuno if I'm 'known' or not, so I'll sketch: I'm a would be 'baron', 'speculator', or what have you.

My timing is exquisite. I entered at the tail end of the 'boom' a while back, bought, jecked the price up by 2X or 3X depending on what was happening around that plot of land. It worked well, actually.

Land was a means to an end. 'Churning' an investment upwards to eventually buy enough (ha!?) land that I'd be able to settle down on and do something creative; build and script, mostly vehicles.

What I hated was finding a spot and buying, and before I could get far in moving in, the place goes to 'heck' with 'from my perspective' eggregious build inches from my door. Fine. Sell and buy a bigger lot so I have a open space between myself and my neighbors. But it's hard to ignore that huge club or mall, even if it's not at your door.

Buy a bigger plot, neh? No - I found a spot in a valley, so that my line of sight is shorter - less chance of bad builds I'd have to look at. Puea lake. Nice place.

It still is a nice place. Because of me. I bought land there as it became available, and it's remained fallow, mostly, with no builds. Makes nice view. I bought up lake bottom water plots there, to keep the lake free of builds so it could be used. I move shorelines back on land I bought to their correct places because the edit option had been used by the previous speculator to create higher priced 'dry' land from lake bottom. Of course, that process was strangling the lake, making it smaller.

I 'fought the good fight' at Puea, on a small scale, while I was in business elsewhere.

Now I have a huge investment in Alua and Puea, both trop PG. But the lake is doing well. It's usable and uncluttered. The shores are mostly corrected.

I'm not whining, nor asking for praise, thanks or whatever. I made my choices and have lived with the fees involved like anyone else. I husbanded Puea lake as much for myself as anyone.

My point is that some times the 'good fight' is more about quality of experience than $L or $USD. There are things that can only be done at a large plot level that are sometimes transparent to the community at large.

Fallow land is one of these things. Call it 'Parkland' or what have you. It would be nice to be able to hold that under a lower tier/sq meter with a provision that it is unable to be built upon other than trees and a small percentage of the prims associated with it. It would foster green areas in my opinion, and breathing space between neighbors while adding to the beauty of the sims with more ground cover and small unique places hidden away to discover.

Not economicly viable, but eh, why not dream?
I'm currently looking for a group or groups interested in buying in Puea, since I'm moving out. I'd like to pass the land on to someone(s) who won't chop it and serve it up as trashheaps waiting to happen.

I have some similar holdings elsewhere, that I'd also like to see developed as 'parkland' by interested groups. As a last ditch I'll chop, but I've always preferred to coalesse land into larger plots rather than cut it down.

While we're bashing .. Anshe, take your lumps gracefully; it's just Kharma coming back to get you. No need to be shrill or throw a tantrum.

I'm not plased with your brand of business either. I've seen sims that you've gone through and taken beautiful hills and mountains and terraced them for bigger profits. Raised lake bottom land to make dry for better prices. Those are the practices I don't like. Leave it as you found it, neh?

Yes, folks, I'm longwinded. Skip to another post if you want.

What has barely been touched on at all, surprises me. But here goes. I've said it before, to anyone who's asked my opinion:

Don't ask for facts, figures, charts, graphs or depositions. I have nothing by my personal observations and interpretation to hang my next few paragraphs on:

***** THIS IS AN -OPINION- ONLY *****

The land market in SL has been manipulated for months by a small group of individuals whom, for this rant, I'll call 'The Cadre'. They have deep $ USD pockets, and take land speculation here very seriously in pursuit of profit.

When land was stablized higher, after the 'Boom', this group made a bold decision and has pursued it for some months. Drive market prices down rapidly by buying huge amounts of land, chopping it and flooding the market at a thin mark up, or below cost in some cases. The oversupply began to drive prices down. They intentionally fed that trend by continuing to buy and dump land into the market with the desired result: Smaller land owners see the value of their land diminishing, and they sell. Others see that and THEY sell. It takes on it's own momentum at that point, land prices falling will little or no need of a push any longer. The actions of LL didn't help much. Dumping sim after sim of snow and mature snow into an already glutted market exacerbated that problem further.

The Cadre's plan, in my opinion, was that once land bottomed out, and a great deal of land was 'in flux' and up for sale, they could buy up very good plots at bargan basement prices, use co ordinated price setiting to stablize the market and begin to build it slowly upwards again toward another boom, when they will reap their true profits from selling desirable land high.

It's not worked as well as they'd hoped. They couldn't stop the slide, even with Anshe, a well known seller, placing a huge amount available at a set price that was desirable. No one wanted it because the market was so unstable it scared off a lot of would be investors. How often, in 'find' does the well known owner put their name in the descriptrion of teh plot with mention of how much they're selling? The Name was supposed to help set the price. The market balked and ignored it.

I've had less and less interest in following the moves, but from a general point of view, and some interesting IMs I've received, it's my opinion that the Cadre had inside information from LL about what kind of land was coming up for auction when, and how many sims offered. I'll go further and speculate that not only did they have a 'pet Linden', but that in my opinion a Linden was part of the Cadre as an alt account.

Proof? Got none but some chat logs that could be interpreted a number of ways. I wasn't on the inside, being a 'small fish' Baron. Given the way the Cadre did business, I wouldn't have been interested anyway.

I'm still trying to sell at prices that won't see me broke, so yes, I still have a huge amount of land. See, I took a bath with the rest when prices fell.

But with collusion and inside information, it's not a level playing field, so I've decided to do what anyone can.

I'm taking my marbles and going home. I've retired from the land market mostly for a while now. I'm pursuing other things, like building and scripting.

Oh, and my femme. I'm pursuing her pretty well now too.

Evil Wikked Land Baron Panther,

Adam 'still running for President' Blair.

Let the flames begin.

thanks for the laughs

It doesn't take much guesswork to look at the way land rolls out and predict what's coming next, and when. By watching the pace at which the latest roll out goes on the auction list, it's easy to say "Hm, there's the last few lots going up this weekend, I expect there'll be new Sims showing up on Monday".

I admit that I was not expecting the third wave of snow sims (especially on my doorstep!), and Lost Lakes came about a week before I thought it would. I also expected desert Sims, which have not yet materialized. But by and large, when a new rollout appears, I have not been taken by surprise.

I would be extremely surprised to learn of any "Cadre" of land buyers with any inside knowledge at all - and if a Linden Lab employee was bidding on auctions under a non-Linden resident name, that would be an extremely serious matter from a legal standpoint. I have not seen nor heard anything that would make me even suspect such actions.

I've considered applying for a job at LL, but having to give up any business activities in SL as a result of being employed there is not something that appeals to me. And I would strenuously hope that relinquishing any and all such activities would be a condition of employment. On the very rare occasions that Lindens have participated in anything in-world that grants L$ rewards, they always return them - Colin Linden's trivia participation comes to mind, where he always asks a few questions at the end to give back twice the amount he won during the main competition.

Adam, mentioning some IMs and chats that have led you down this road of thought is not enough. These are serious accusations you're making here. Either post facts, or accept that you're suffering from paranoia here.

Wait a sec here. Someone is trying to suggest that people not be allowed to resell their land for SIX MONTHS? What?! So if someone once again puts a lag-paralysis dance club in front of my pretty little home, I'm screwed because I can't sell up and move for SIX MONTHS? I can't talk my neighbor into selling me a piece of land to increase the size of my parcel for MONTHS? If I'm a newbie and want land in SL I have to commit to maintaining my membership and paying tier fees on my land for SIX MONTHS or I'll lose the money I spent on it? Or are you planning on suggesting the Lindens offer a REFUND to these people? ROFL

Of course, that was a shortsighted suggestion. Not only would the inability to "trade up" to a larger or waterfront parcel or to escape whatever gets built next door turn off many prospective property owners in this community, not only would it reduce the amount of land (if any) many of us would risk buying and being stuck with . . . imagine what you'd be complaining about on the forums next.

Why, instead of ranting about EVIL LAND BARONS, you'll get to bitch about EVIL SLUM LORDS. Because, you know, more restrictions that are more likely to leave a prospective land owner in an unpleasant position, or more likely to lose their investment, will just drive more people to rent. And who's gonna be willing to risk their funds investing in rental property that might or might not hold its value over the course of six months? The very "land barons" being attacked in this thread.

/me runs off to find something belonging to Jauani so I can give a positive rating

Adam, while not on the side of the supposed 'barons' I'd have to disagree with your statements. . . the flood of land was due to LL releasing so much at once. This was purposeful and has driven down the price of land for now. . .as we see though, even though since then we've had a steady release of land, the prices are climbing again. Go back (way back, lol) and read my long post on why I think this is.

Jau, you're great. A really smart and astute business person. I think what you are saying is true about speculators having to consider profit margins and whatnot.

You say that people could buy larger plots of land at market value (I contend above, but we'll go with that) I disagree that this is what is happening in reality for two reasons. 1) A huge majority of the would be barrons aren't as smart as you and right now are bidding whatever it takes to win those large plots, and 2) most importantly, this just isn't happening. If people COULD win large plots of land in the auctions, then they would be.

True, people who want to build on the land are shockingly picky. . .actually wanting land in a specific spot, which limits their buying capability.

But, I think as we see from the auctions, a small group of people ARE winning the majority of the plots. This isn't because people aren't willing to compete with the barrons in the auctions. It just means that currently, what with land barrony recently getting one individual $35,000 (US) several people are seeing barrony as they're dream get rich quick scheme. They are bidding (probably overly so) anything it takes to just edge out the non barrons. I very much agree with your observations about profits, but I don't think some of the lesser experienced barrons are listening to you.

Also, there's another thing happening. Some of the barrons are so big, that they can afford to only be turning over like half of their land at a time. . . this means they are setup to hold the other land as prices rise and get to a point where it is more profitable to sell.

So, what does this mean? I think we're gonna see a lot of the Mom and Pop Barrons collapse as they are not figuring in tier fees and such properly. . .and, I think this is gonna mean the Big Dogs are gonna get Bigger.

Jau, I think you are doing great, and remaining ethical. You're doing business more smartly than the Mom and Pops, but aren't going for world conquest as some of the other barrons are. Keep on keepin on.

Of course, all of the above is just my opinion, based on what I see as happening.

As to people screaming about the idea of the the land holding time period. I realise this is a Radical suggestion, and probably wouldn't work. However, Robin asked us to constructively present ideas that may or may not help the situation.

I see no reason in the land holding scenario why you shouldn't be able to trade the land you are currently holding with a piece of equal or greater size in a non slum area, as long as you are willing to pay the difference in price. You could bid in the auctions, and if you win a larger piece of land, you would just trade your old land for the new and pay the difference to LL. LL could then auction the land you traded.

I see the need to be able to move away from clubs, or to be able to trade up to a better spot. But, I also think that this system could, in the long run, lead to more meaningful builds, which would help alleviate the clubbiest of club clubs (sorry Cubey ) situation.

Once again, to anyone thinking I'm dictating what LL is gonna do as opposed to making suggestions as to some different sort of system, my power is not, as I wish it was, beyond your belief. If you have nothing constructive to add, but rather would like to scream about the sky falling, then I suggest you step back so others might usefully add to the conversation.

I Salute you Adam!

Oneironaut Escher: Please, think more (and even expand) on your system and its reprecussions to the SL world. I completely disagree with your thoughts. It would be a horribly restrictive system compared to the one we have now, and for what? Nothing.

I feel it's constructive to point out the weak points of a shortsighted suggestion, as well as to express my displeasure when someone makes a suggestion that, if it were put into effect, would lead me start looking around to see if there's another site on which I might better enjoy spending my time. If I were the Lindens, I'd want to know a given suggestion might get that reaction from some members. I'd value that feedback.

I am content with the system of land auctions and resale as it stands. Seems to me land brokers perform a service, breaking up large parcels and reselling them, sparing LL the expenditure of resources required to sell so many small parcels themselves. As well, they have an ongoing financial investment here, which is of value. The suggested idea of trading land . . . what added administrative expenses will LL have to bear, and why wouldn't land brokers just turn to barter themselves? Edited to add: Where's the provision for people who want to sell their land and quit, or reduce their tier?

That aside . . . one goal of your suggestion is supposed to be, "More meaningful builds?" Someone round here came up with a really nice phrase along the lines of "not legislating taste." I don't see how a waiting period on reselling land would have anything to do with reducing the clubbiest clubs (admittedly, I'm not clear on your definition of "clubbiest clubs". Furthermore, although I would rather not have one next door to my parcel, I don't think it would be a good idea to attempt to reduce the number of clubbiest clubs. Clubs are built by members who pay the same fees as you and I. They enjoy them. The clubs are made lagtastic by the attendance of still more members who could, if they didn't enjoy clubs, go build something themselves or turn off the computer and watch TV. Is it your intent to drive club-owning and club-attending members from the site, or are you thinking somehow this will force them to build something else more like the "meaningful builds" you enjoy yourself?

Posting my information, gleaned from private conversation logs and IMs would be against the TOS's 'Big Six' or whatever, as well as inconclusive, and open to wide interpretation.

As I've stated, it's an 'Opinion'. My personal opinion. No one is expected or obligated to read it, let alone accept it as fact.

I'll 'accept that I'm suffering from paranoia here' instead, with your blessing for the time being. I don't expect a smoking gun to arise.

-Thanks Deklax

i would say i would be definately behind a one month land holding period. essentially forcing someone who buys land (at least from auction if not in world directly) to pay *two* tier cycles on it instead of just one, before they were able to move it off to other people. It would increase the overall 'cost' of attaining land supply enough that the barons may not wish to actually bid quite as highly *against normal people wantin to use the land* since for their purposes, they will have to pay less for large blocks to make the same amount of money as they do now.

(they may argue well we would just sell higher to make the money back, so it would raise prices.. but that would be *very* silly as it would basically be them admitting they are artificially inflating land prices, and i don't think they wanna do that)

Land ownership is not a bad thing. Originally the land baron title was someone who owned a lot of land in a limited market, but has taken on the negative connotation of the land speculators. I own 100,000m of land, but I am no longer on the leader boards because it is grouped (Midnight Land Trust). I have sold plots only twice in SL, and both times for pennies on the dollar of what I paid for them (even after dividing them into plots and terraforming them to make them more useable, you know, the "service" that land developers provide). Land is an important commodity in SL - the only important commodity. The availability of reasonably priced land is essential to the ongoing growh of SL, as building and establishing permanence in SL ultimately important to a lot of players. I am not against profitting on land sales, but I am against anything that gets in the way of a player attaining land without having to pay a middle person just for the privilige of being outbid for profiteering. Should there be restrictions placed on auctions? Yes. I don't think you should be able to win more than say a few plots in any sim - this applies to the entire account, so alts could not be used to increase this. I don't think a restriction should be added on when the land can be sold - as soon as you claim the land, you have to tier up anyway - the claim period just needs to be shortened to the same 24 hour period you have when buying land in world. There should be no disparity.

Its not about 'artificially inflating' the price, or 'wanting to admit' anything... as a land trader you buy land slightly below what you percieve market value to be and sell at what you believe you can, I -absolutely- gauruntee the increased costs would be passed along to those at the bottom rather than the top AND would inconvenience -everyone- as either a sim deteriorated around them as populations change or they changed themselves and wanted to move on. It seems to me any sufficiently maintained land trading enterprise could simply eat the first <blank> period of tier (and pass it into overall average cost) and then just have new lands opening for sale as they continue to purchase based on current sales after that point, regardless of lag time. Right?

1 - please explain how <a> and <b> can be mutually exclusive?

2 - please explain how a speculator can successfully practice profiteering by out bidding an end buyer on an auction if the end buyer had bid the highest price she was ever willing to pay for the parcel of land unless there was an market that was not represented on the auction (due to parcel size or personal conveience) that the speculator was catering to.



acknowledging different player have different desires of land size and terrain, how does this not hinder any end consumer from freely acquiring the land of thier choice?

acknowledging that LL's goal is to establish an open and transparent land market, how do these restrictions benefit the goal of a stable and honest market value if segments of the market are marginalised due to parcel size?

can LL cater effectively to all parcel sizes in precise quantities and qualities? no, it is impossible because how can it be democratic if one parcel gets the waterfall but the other gets the telehub and one of the gets a 1000% slope and the are all different sizes? instead, speculators enter not as middle men, but regulators, motivated by the profits available when any parcel does not get market value.

if people are not comfortable about thier knowledge of the freemarket, the stock exchange, or capitalism, please take the time to inform yourself to understand this discussion. LL has long ago declared they would like an open market for land. it is a wise decision that reduces the administrative mess they would face were they to socialize land

*inflexible market price - the associated invisible black market exchanges
*returning land rights to LL - constant flood of land to be auctioned, less incentive to own land on higher tier fees.
*hold periods on land - backlash of unsatisfied customers locked into land tiers.
*limit on auctions - loss of revenue to everytime land passes through auction way below market value.

in fact, the allusion of robins post and the practice of putting out large numbers of full sims is the notion to further leave the land market out in the hands off the community, in terms of parcelling and developing, by the regulating agents - speculators and developers (who are 100% not an ogilopoly in effect although they may be in appearance). any player who wishes to skip the "middle man" can outbid them on the auctions.

Jauani,

We go back and forth about this all the time. You speak of a free market, but how free is the market ultimately when you have a situation where profiting from land has been so financially beneficial to a small group of players that they can turn around and reinvest all that money into plot after plot in the auctions, sometimes taking entire sims one way or another, and expand their profits even more. It is a vicious circle that even players with modest disposeable income cannot compete against. There is a "fair market value" only when that market is not interfered with and exploited in the first place. Ultimately, land being priced highly affects the growth of Second Life. It keeps new players from joining, and becomes a disincentive to tier up to higher land fees, because the higher land costs associated with buying the land for the tier. This ultimately harms Linden Lab more than the short term profits of allowing a few players to dominate the auctions.

By the way, on the matter of selling entire sims and if LL should just get out of the way and let the community handle it, this is my take on it. Except where a certain well known person that is incapable of decent terraforming has been involved, Linden Lab has put out some beautifully designed sims (my personal favorite being Mavericks, but I am biased). If they really want to create a competive, community driven land market, fine, let someone buy an entire sim that is empty, cheaply, with no terraforming restrictions, and let them have at it. They have to raise the land from the water and terraform the sim, parcel it, forest it, put in any infrastructure, whatever. Land could then be sold as they saw fit, and it is their work, not Linden Lab. They actually have to DEVELOP land for the first time, and can finally call themselves land developers. Until then, they are nothing more than someone with a platinum card and a delusion of grandeur

<sarcasm>
we both know cristiano that SL would aquire any number of 'GREAT FLAT LAND FOR SALE!!' 'sheet' sims, since flat is obviously so much better for building lots of large cubes on

</sarcasm>

-edited to add appropriate html tags

so yer not controlling prices.... but... yer controlling prices?

ya can't have it both ways... either land profiteeting is directly impacting the price of land to end users across SL in which case its hurtin new players, not helping them and should, for the good of SL be stopped, or severely curtailed in its current malicious form...

Or land profiteering isn directly impacting the price of land to end users across SL, in which case making people hold onto auction land for at least a month before they can resell it really doesn't seem to have much of a downside.

* sigh * I know, but without my suggestion, I couldn't have added the last sentence, and I really wanted to say "nothing more than someone with a platinum card and a delusion of grandeur".

Seriously, I think there is some merit in the idea, though you are right, we would probably end up with the SL equivalent of the Great Plains. Granted, at the rate sims are being snatched up by a certain player who can't terraform for shit, we are ending up with that anyway. At least they would have to work to pull up the land from the water. Or they could sell water plots with platforms. Whatever lol. I think you know how i feel about it - I am in agreement that they are teh suck, but we see the adage of "money talks" as seeming to hold true, since LL has done zero to affect this issue in any real way.

All land barons are part of the World Jewish Conspiracy. We are all clones of Philip Linden and about to take over whole world and turn you into sex slave