Buying and Selling Land

Transparent, in this sense, is names posted with all land transactions. Only then do we get a true sense on who the major holders are, and what their premiums are doing to induce market decay - another symptom of an oligopoly, which is confirmed by official linden commentary, hardly a supposition.

An Oligopoly is a market with a few sellers and many buyers.

SL has a market where 5% of the all residents purchase land via auction, the rest of the 95% are purchased by large land-owners who then resell this land.

This qualifies as an oligopoly, again, where there are few sellers and many buyers. Saying LL is the only producer only moves the equation up the chain, where I could then say it is a natural monopoly, but I didn't see the point in posting that pedantic train of thinking.

Its an oligopoly, get used to it, you'll see the effects of the market persist as it evolves.

in that case i would also like all transactions of L$ for sales of objects or for services rendered or merely gifts, to be made public knowledge. i too would like to see which players are raking in the dough by "manipulating" the clothing and vehicle market.

now about that mullet.

and cory's quote doesn't confirm anything about an ogilopoly. you keep doing you web searches on economy websites, you're still going to turn up squat.

maxx,

this market is a monopoly. LL controls the resource. as pedantic as it may seem, it is the truth. your choice to omit that was wrong.

your perception of a land baron ogilopoly is false. every player with sufficient funds, and there are hundreds of you, can begin participating in the land market. it is not closed. there are only a few dozen of us boring enough to do it, that's all.

get used to it.

A monopolistic source.

An intermediate market that is an oligopoly, as defined before as a market with a few sellers (the majority land holders buying at auctions from the monopolistic source) to a lot of buyers, (all the other active land holders).

The definition seems clear enough. I don't plan on getting used to the oligopoly though.

*grin*

Show me where I insulted the community. When talking about people who abuse the forums and/or the rating system to grief land trader like me, then I am talking about exactly those people and nobody else. The attempt of you and some other "old time" member here to try picture yourself as "the community" is not only outright arrogant, but an insult to every sane Second Life member who does not want be involved with your uncalled for attacks.



How about you stopping to beat with sticks on others? The attacks coming from you and several others on my person and business in particular, as well as that of land traders and people who earn money in SL in general is pathetic. After all those attack I have every right to speak up to defend myself and call you by what you are.



Where have you been affected by my "tactics" or "behavior"? I am buying and selling land like hundreds of other people, including people who joined the mob here. The only difference I see in my particular "tactic" and "behavior" is that 1) I grew one business of this 2) I have been successful to earn money 3) I have the courage to stand behind what I do and to be honest about it.

If you wouldn't be driven by jeleousy, you would simply mind your own business and move on.



How about you stop twisting my words? Nobody is forced to do business with me or any other land trader. But fact is, I had hundreds if not thousands of customer. If my business practise would be that bad, you would see the forums filled with complaint and customer would neg rate me, file abuse reports and so on. But nothing of this happened for months. Instead I have happy customer return to me for more business.

All I see is a bunch of always same people acting like school yard bully. Attacking individuals or a specific profession, and that is what you are continuously doing here, since the very day I join Second Life, is immature and immoral. I saw the same people attack Fizik and Avalon, flame club owners and grief realtors. People like you is what really hurt a community.



Nice for you. But land trading is not about throwing money at auctions. It need skill to bid the right price on land and effort to sell land with profit. If you would be willing spend same effort as existing land traders and would possess same skill, you could simply drive us out of business by becoming non-profit land trader. But instead you and your kin try to destroy our business and reputation with forum attack and neg rating, false rumors and griefing. Instead of contributing with hard work and service, you are only destructive.

does experience show land prices to fluctuate with land baron activity or by LL land output? the latter. so who is the seller in control? LL. monopoly.

i am not a producer. LL is. LL produced supply and in world population growth predicated demand establish price for the base land parcel. supply vs demand is a very old and well understood economic model.

i will admit the intermediate market looks like an ogilopoly if you are not interested in participating but only bashing.

i will summarize my thoughts on land in this condensed list and then be done with your entrapment with an illusion.

the reason that most people do not participate in the land market is that
1> most people are looking for tier sized plots and LL is not providing them.
2> most players are not interested in overshooting thier desired tier to buy the land and then sell the remainder in the game market.
3> post players are looking for a smaller range of parcel sizes

the reason that land speculators exist is
1> they realize that there is this short coming in the auction system
2> providing this service is profitable
3> they realize that large parcels are cheaper per m2 than smaller ones
4> they realize smaller parcel consumers will pay more for land
5> they do not spending part of thier second life tending to land

the reason this is not an ogiloply
1> the only player controlling the resource supply is LL
2> all players are equally eligible to bid on the auctions

an ethical land speculator
1> does not participate in collusion on auctions bids
2> does not engage in fraud
3> does not manipulate the auctions by making bids in bad faith (ie defaulting purposefully)
4> does not evade LL land regulations and tier payments.

hereforth, i deem any player who contimues to state that land speculators at large are immoral or ruining second life to be at least one of the following
1> anti open market
2> illogical
3> jealous (begrudging another persons sense of enjoyment and succes)
4> selfish (desiring large plots for below market values)
5> immoral (knowingly manipulating public discourse for self serving purposes)

I used the current LL system to neg rate one those for sale signs all over our virtual world.

Again what you are saying are bold face lies, you are openly harrassing me.

Don't post to me again.

Well, some people don't agree that being a land baronness "does a service" for the community.
In fact, some people find that insulting.

Mae I dont know where you are getting your information from but I have always had great respect for your work. As for the For Sale sign yes I did neg rate it. How did I grief you? I do remember one conversation with you where I thought you had 4 different accounts and yes I did name them to you. You said they were not yours and that was the end of the conversation.

I neg rated the for sale signs they bug me and yes I would do it again. All land for sale is listed on the LL map. All land for sale is listed on the find menu. All land for sale is clearly a different color in the "edit land" option. All land that is for sale has a price tag on it. I don't think the addition of for sale signs is necessary, its over kill in my opinion and given the chance to neg rate them again I certainly would. More so I hope everyone who also feels the way I do also neg rates ALL land for sale signs.

Catherine

I am business girl and I do service to my customers. If you don't think my service add any value, you need not use it. There is always option to buy land directly from Linden Lab or from other players who want to sell. You have same tools that I have. All I have is my expertise of land market and my time.

Yup, same old same old.




Uh. Ok. So Anshe ISNT going to realise that jealousy isnt an issue. My bad.




It is not necessary to be personally affected by your tactics or behaviour to disapprove of them. Another thing as I pointed out before that you don't get. And in any case you ARE affecting the community as a whole, because rules are being changed to try and combat the way you and your kind are exploiting the system.



Anshe, I don't know how many times, how many ways I can say this. I am not jealous of you. On the contrary, I pity you.



How about you stop twisting mine? Or is it really that you just dont understand me? If so, I'm sorry I can't be clearer. And as for the rest of this bit.. errr... you answered it with the exact same argument I was making the point about. lol



Um, I'm not sure where you get the impression I've ever been against Avalon, club owners or realtors. I don't much like clubs. I've stood up to comment against one particular club owner - and supported his club but not his argument. And I have nothing against realtors like Lisse. But like so many others, you'll just lump us all together and dismiss us all as a bunch of troublemakers, like we're in collusion or something and have a single wrong opinion. I speak for me and I couldn't give a stuff whether anyone agrees or disagrees.



Anshe...

(1) I have never neg rated you.

(2) I have never started any rumors about you. Contrary to what you'd like to believe, my life does not revolve around you. I've never even met you.

(3) I've never griefed you, save for responding to your forum posts. Which if that's grief, then, well, guilty.

I'm really not going to engage in the same tit for tat again, but you're making my points for me... I've never said a word about for sale signs, the amount of sims you buy or anything like that... I've said I dont like your tactics in general, and I've called you out for the things that I said in the post above - about the way you accuse people (just like in this post I'm responding to!) of doing stuff they've never done (in my case, at least) in your condescending way, of accusing people of being jealous of you when they really, really aren't, and of using false logic in your defence. All of which I stand by.



Firstly, I don't remember it being in the rule book that I had to contribute anything, or work hard.

Secondly, when you're not busy buying land, come have a look at my sim. Have a look around at some of the things I've done in Second Life.

You can accuse me of a lot of things, but not contributing is not one of them.

Wow! Please everybody take note: you help one land trader like me by making beautiful oriental signs to replace old plain signs and Catherine will neg rate you for it! We are not talking about neg rate land trader (which is bad enough by itself) but we are talking about neg rating a hired artist!

Reason for participation doesn't nullify what the market is - see the reference I posted for Cory's factual statement regarding the current land system if you're confused on this point.



1) Shortcoming not identified.
2) Profit is the real motive, yes.
3) Math is a new service?
4) If having a small number of sellers, as an oligopoly is, yes. You can manipulate much easier this way, think of it as a partial 'cornered' market.
5) Tending to land? Clarify.



1) Incomplete view, the chain is (LL - Monopolistic source) ---> (Land Barons - Oligopoly forming intermediary) ---> (SL Land buyers)
2) The facts stated by Cory show how eligibility doesn't translate into actuality. Nice try.



1) Transparent market would prove this, it isn't at this state for ALL transactions, not just auctions, so unprovable.
2) Again, no data equals no basis for belief or confirmation
3) Data would prove/disprove this
4) LL policy coupled with the transaction data would allow proof if this occurs or not



1) Incorrect, I don't support skewed market distribution schemes, ie, an oligopoly
2) Only if logic is not applied, and it has been -- successfully. (see above)
3) Subjective, no basis of proof supplied or even necessary - irrelevant.
4) Incorrect, my current land tier is zero extra fees, at 1024 sqm allowed.
5) Subjective, inconclusive - could easily be turned against your reply for inflaming discourse against factual statements

Good try. Next?

I have zero problems with any land speculator who does not engage in the above practices. I would only add that said land speculator ought to be aware of the aesthetics of the land he or she sells when parceling it out -- but that's a nebulous concept that is not easily defended.

This post has got crazy. Why go round neg rating things that are not doing you any harm? In my time on SL I have bought land from other players and been ripped off and I have bought land from auction. I have friends that will only deal with Barons when buying and selling land as they get a good deal and want a quick transaction. I believe a lot of peeps are just jealous of land barons! I recall recently when land prices dropped through the floor and I imagined a lot of Barons were hurt by that. Did we see them complaining?
The answer is very very simple....you dont have to buy land from the barons..you have choices. I am sure there are great barons as I am sure there are greedy barons...but why continue to write about it? The reason SL is so great is because it emulates real life to a degree by providing diversity and choices. Nothing is perfect and will it ever be. get on with the game and stop griefing.

In the eye of the beholder no doubt...

My original post was an opinion, clearly not a personal attack on anyone.

Some really fantastic ideas have been talked about. Clearly some very smart ppl have made suggestions as to how to implement a new system. Suggestions have been made as to improving the current system.

I have read each and every post and some of you really have some fantastic ideas please continue that conversation. I am asking that we just don't respond to those who just wish to derail the conversation.

Thank you

Cath

OMFG! How many times? *cry*


WE ARE NOT JEALOUS


How? Why? I don't get it. It must just be me. My poor widdle bwain just can't compwehend. *sigh*

ok. I admit it. I'm jealous. I want to be a land baron sooooo baaaaadly but Anshe is so good at it *waaaaah*

There. Better?

Why would anyone be jealous of social pariahs?

It is just really incredible to even *say* it, much less believe it.

There are two ways SL can go from here.

1) Get more regular every day people in and do this

Signup same as now, free to test out…

To continue to use SL one off fee of 9.95, which includes 512 of land, no requiring payments, fine so far..

To have more than 512, allow upgrade to premium of $9.95 pm, this allows you to buy 1025 of land for L’s, “then” if you require more land, you use the extra land use fees to add on top of the monthly payments.

Protect First Land, by not allowing the person to sell it on to anyone else, unless it was not on Linden sim, meaning they have to give it back to Linden, if they no longer need it.

Land they bought from other people, doesn’t apply, land they buy from other sims, not first land dose not apply.

We all know 512 of land is good for nothing except a garden shed.


2) Focus SL on a handful of people with money to waste, and do this.

Increase membership to $15 per month, and use land use fees for all land, 512 = $10 double up as the land increases.

Let them buy sell land as they do now.


That’s my view anyway for what its worth.

I agree with some of what you said. We part company on the above.

Show me a 512 plot of land and it's prim allocation and I'll show you what you can do with it

And I promise you it won't be a garden shed. But after the three storey house and its garden, I could prolly have enough left to build you one if you really want

Mike I think that is a great idea!

Cath

you posted cory's factual statement along with cory's unqualified and illogical soundbyte for a gamer webzing. yes, land speculators may account for 95 percent of auction sales but it is because of the reasons i stated which are due to the CHOICE of most PLAYERS to NOT BID MARKET VALUE for LARGE PARCELS.

2> nobody denies profit as a motivator.
5> tending to land is the time it takes to prepare land for sale and to market it to fellow players. profits for me do not justify the time factor in RL terms, but they do justify them in the "could pay my tier and my broadband connection" just from playing a game.


1> i will no longer debate this with you. we have opposing views. you are caught up in perception and i'm caught up in mechanism and we will not see eye to eye.
2> nice try by you. perhaps you think linden soundbytes for the press are analytic truth, but besides the numeric facts he offers, i don't give his words anymore value than mine or yours. lindens have dominion over data, but information is still open to our interpretation.


1> the market is transparent if you do your research . all results are posted. no other mechanism besides undercover investigation will prove whether collusion is taking place on the auctions. i have been faced by an iritated unethical player who openly admitted to it when i unexpectedly bid on a very large parcel of land. i will not name names, but it was not anshe.
2> fraud, meaning cheating players out of land or cash and not delivering as agreed in the deal. no data is necessary. if you can't spot when someone took your money and didn't deliver, data won't help you.
3> what is your obsession with data? this is LL's problem to block out or penalize defaulters
4> if LL does their job there is no need for data because all evaders will be locked out. LL has announced it has automated this now.



1> i deem your position to be antiopen market (due to illogical moves in your arguement). let us agree to disagree
2> i deem your arguements well informed but illogical
5> it is subjective but conclusive

Oh, so now the source is suspect because of the place it is posted? Interesting way to marginalize data you don't agree with, I should file that tactic for later use if I'm absolutely desperate during a debate, like you are.

Your second point, most players don't have enough L$ to bid for large parcels? No, what this means is that the auction process is being used by those with deep enough pockets to force all parcels out of the range of purchase by underfunded players. This is another side-effect of an oligopoly. Symptom of parasitic market cornering.



2) Yes, it is the ONLY reason the intermediary market exists.
5) The time involved to do what you say is inversely proportional to the premiums extracted from the land sale. There are no large development communities, no real investment of time involved to sell anything beyond spamming areas with 'For Sale' signs. It is an efficient process -- for the large Land-Owner, that is.



1) You are caught up in the perception that a land buying cartel is what makes a market 'good'. I happen to disagree.
2) So you agree that open transparency is the way to prove many of these points. Agreed then.



1) The market is PARTIALLY transparent. Note I said *all* transactions, this includes in-world land sales and purchases outside the auction system. It is possible, Linden Lab just has to expose this.
2) I misinterpreted this, and I agree with your definition of fraud.
3) Data is what will allow you or me to prove/disprove anything, and give us leverage to publicly expose those that are merely parasitical intermediaries that provide nothing along with their markups.
4) Agreed that Linden policy has adapted to this loophole, but data transparency, as indicated above, would assist in confirming this policy is enforced.



1) I don't propose demolishing auctions or land sales, I do advocate opening information to be available to all parties. That is hardly a closed market view, or one that seeks to eradicate them.
2) Your opinion is yours to state, of course.
5) You've come to your own conclusions, yes.

Interesting. Next?