Buying and Selling Land

Jacqueline; Please add some data to support the 3L$m.

Thanks you

Cath

I don't mind the current land prices. . . I think they are close to what we had Pre land auctions - I'm okay with land having value.

What I do mind is the fact that it is nearly impossible to acquire any land directly from LL. Lisse, you're one of the really great land managers I would totally call you a real estate agent. I very much appreciate your previous suggestions.

I think also though, you do understand the frustration that the non bulk land buyer is experiencing. Unless I'm willing to bid on Every current land auction, and then end up taking whatever I end up getting (and possibly defaulting on all the other ones I might randomly end up getting) I can't get a satisfiably large piece of land, or one in an area that I actually choose.

Some people have made the condescending comment that all these complaints about "land barrony" is just a case of jealousy - the ongoing societal war between the "Haves and the Have Nots".

In regards to true land barons - those willing to exploit the system and the community - I absolutely think this is the case - it's an ongoing battle between those who Have Ethics, and those that Do Not.

Once again, I'm not referencing you Lisse Back when the prices were out of control, I think that people (possibly myself included) lumped you all into one Land Baron category. I think as the prices have come down to a sane level, the true Land Barons have been filtered out and brought to light.

I so appreciate now that people like you and Schwanson bring honor to a profession that would possibly take a lot less effort and make you more money if you were willing to sell your soul.

Thanks

Cath - I don't have time to check your numbers, I am assuming they are correct. You forgot to add the $195 tier fee to the cost. If a person is claiming the land, there is no way around the additional $195 fee. I think a more realistic addition would be $390, 2 months tier to sell off an entire sim. I am not trying to be arbitrary, I just like to see correct numbers.

I've seen the http://www.secondlife.com/land page dip to L$3/m on occasion. It seems to fluctuate mostly between L$5 and L$3.

That is an EXCELLENT idea, One! Lindens??

I agree with a defaulter not being able to bid in further auctions, although maybe put a time cap on that. There are a few clarifications I'd like to make though.

By defaulting, we don't mean those whose credit cards don't go through first time, for whatever reason, but are still willing to purchase and do so as soon as they've sorted out whatever was wrong with the credit card. (In those cases currently, LL will automatically keep trying to charge the card until it goes through)

We also don't mean those who bid when they have a bunch of L$s, then foolishly lose it all at blackjack before the auction closes, but manage to buy or earn them back a day or so later, and then claim the land. (In those cases currently, the amount of the auction will be debited from your account as soon as your balance goes above the amount required)

We might not mean (but this is open to debate) those who make really silly bidding mistakes, and email LL as soon as they realize what they've done e.g. putting in a number in the thousands because they though it was US$s instead of L$s. I know LL are usually understanding about this, and will offer the land to the second placed bidder if your credit card is just not going to support whatever price the auction ended at.

We do mean people who don't contact LL about their "mistake" until after the auction ends, and have no particular excuse for their misleading bidding. It should be fairly easy for LL to tell the difference between someone who typed '6000' instead of '60' for their maximum bid, and someone else who was just messing around with the bidding process.

To be absolutely fair, perhaps it should be a ban on second offence - that would at least prevent people making a career out of it.

I think those are all valid points Lisse. . . we would be going after people who exploit the system by doing this repeatedly, and very obviously purposefully.

Excellent point Schwanson and your correct I did omit that number, although not intentionaly. Still the profit remains above 500.00 per sim when all monies have exchanged hands. Thanks for noting the tier information.

Cath

Thanks Mole much appreciated

Cath

Good Points Lisse, Thank you

I disagree with this one tho;
"We also don't mean those who bid when they have a bunch of L$s, then foolishly lose it all at blackjack before the auction closes, but manage to buy or earn them back a day or so later, and then claim the land. (In those cases currently, the amount of the auction will be debited from your account as soon as your balance goes above the amount required) "

If they are foolish enough to spend the money that is ment to pay for a bid, then they lose that bid. Thus the auction. Auctions are now for RL$ if a person doesn't have the money to pay for their bid they have no business bidding. Period.

Thanks for your thought provoking posts much appreicated

Cath

here are the facts:

there are more players willing to pay 8 L$/m for small parcels of mature land (512-204
than there are players willing to pay the same rate for much larger parcels. the reasons for this are obvious and it is a matter of scale and leisure spending.

someone who is willing to take the calculated risk places themselves a wholesale bidder on large parcels, representing consumers of small parcels. by noting that entire sims are available for 1200$ (i had always thought it was 800. did they raise the price?) most end users are not interested in bidding much higher. but the intermediary, the "land baron", is prepared to take that risk and bid higher because they calculate that as long as they can buy the sim for under 2000 USD, they should be able to break even or turn a profit.

this act regulates land prices from 512 plots right up to entire sims.

if you still do not understand please ask very precise questions so i can answer clearly why you are crying about nothing.

interestingly, the complaining had completely subsided while ph land had dipped to 2.5 L$/m and mature land had dipped to 4.5 L$/m. in fact then players were complaining that LL was making thier land worthless. now that demand is going up again and prices are as well, the complaining starts again.

When I started playing in 1.0 land was $3 a meter in most sims (I think it was higher in Tan and...... Aqua?)

So prices fluctuating between 2.5 to 5 is quite reasonable.

I've only heard $1 per meter on public land... someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Siggy.

Since were on the subject, day before I left SL, I was standing in the Welcome Area, and someone IM me, asking if I had bought any first land yet, I said no and I didn’t let on immediately that I haven’t upgraded my account yet, so couldn’t buy land anyway, then this person said thay wanted a peace of land, that was in a real good spot but was first land, and of course this person already had land.

Anyway, I eventually said sorry couldn’t help, and thought nothing of it, but later thinking about it, if someone is in the welcome area, actively seeking new members that haven’t bought new land yet, it dose make you think, what if this has happen many times before ?

It was the second time I was asked, the first time was ok, since it was a person I met who I wouldn’t have minded helping out.

Thanks Cath, if i do come back, ill look you up

Jauani;
Thank you for your post Although I disagree with it fundamentally. I believe your assumption that the majority is OK with paying 8L$ per m2 is incorrect. I think those ppl are paying those prices because they don't have much of a choice other than to continue to pay the middle man. I think the current system is flawed. I don't think it was the intention of LL to create auctions just to create a middle man. I do however believe given the choice or the opportunity to pay less than 8L$ per m2 for m land ppl would choose the lesser.

Of course the complains subsided ppl were happy. Now that land and its price is being controlled by a handful of ppl with deep pockets ppl are not as happy. Again understandable.

Thanks for sharing your views
Cath

Correct Siggy. Auctions do however start at L$1 per m2.

Cath

Mike;

Now that's a scary thought. I wasn't aware things like that were happening in the welcome area. Although these days I am not suprized *chuckle

take care of you Mike

Cath

catherine,
you may disagree with me, but it is you that is incorrect. given the choice, i would prefer not to pay anything to play SL and i would like to stop paying taxes in RL forever. i'd also like if the gov't erased my student debt. so your statement about that people would choose to pay less is meaningless. land is priced at 8/m not because of what people would choose to pay but because of what people are willing to pay under current land supplies for particular kinds of land.

nothing has changed over the last six months except the land types, the land supplies, and the demand from the public. those three things determine land prices.

i am speaking from my experience. when i buy a 10k parcel and try to sell it whole for 6 L$/m2 it will not sell. after i break it into 2048-4096 parcels, it might sell. but usually it won't. once i break it down into 512-1024-2048 size parcels a day or so later still, suddenly it begins to sell. what do i do for people that LL does not? i put 512 and 1024 parcels side by side. i put 2048 and 512 parcels side by side. and for this convenience and immediacy, a lot of players are willing to pay a small fee. for a large 10k parcel, most players will be tentative about spending that sum of money that was collectively paid on smaller parcels. it is on that reality that land barons operate.

no matter how deep a persons pockets are, if they try to sell land at unsellable prices they will eventually get left holding the bag while LL continues to add more servers. as long as someone is buying, LL will keep adding. the reason the forum crusaders cannot push the community at large to put a stop on buying from barons is because there are hundred of people out there that feel these prices are fair.

Jauani;

OK we disagree on this subject and that is fine. Given the opportunity to drag RL issues into any subject can pull the substance away from any SL discussion. SL is not RL. So I choose not to discuss those RL things you offered to the discussion. My point is simple if I had the choice between paying LL and the middle man, I choose LL.

Since it seems I don't have much of a choice presently I simply choose not to purchase land at what I feel are currently over inflated prices by ppl with the means to buy entire sims.

I think "forum crusaders" is a generalization, and no more valid than referring to land barrens as "money hungry talent less hacks". So can we leave the labels at the door please. They get us no where in a rational adult discussion. (I was making a point nothing more, if anyone reads more into than what its meant for that is a shame)

I am sure you feel you provide a service, I feel its not a necessary function of SL.

I agree to disagree with you on the current state of land in SL. Thanks for your thoughts on the subject.
Cath

i agree that we disagree. i disagree that real life comparisions are not useful considering that all players are RL people. I am anyway. you are devaluing SL by suggesting that it is seperate from the real.
given the choice, i would like to pay every in game content creator 0 L$ to enjoy thier stuff. but i am willing to pay more. perhaps that can resonate better with you.

you are given that chance regularly at the auctions. you could pay LL 6-7 L$/m or i can pay LL and you can pay me 7-8 L$/m. players with means who sufficiently value land make one of those two choices.

i think forum crusader is a wonderful label for those who fit it. i was making a point about crusaders who have suggested this, i wasn't calling you one.
be ready for the next land glut and i'm sure you will find a nice deal.

Ok we have both agreed to disagree lets not degrade this into a pissing contest now ok

Take care of yourself and good luck with all that you do.

Cath

pissing contest or debate? i don't think you are prepared for either. good luck to you too.

I dont think that was called for.

Good day.

With all due respect Jau,

The issue that you generally don't address, as far as I've seen, is the fact that the auctions are Very limited by the bulk buyers. It's ridiculous to assume that the average player can bid on 50 auctions at once, especially if they have ethics and don't want to default on any of them (as this would be a very real possibility for someone looking for just one plot of land). Read some of these other posts. Lisse gives some excellent pointers on how to get really small, isolated plots by waiting until funky hours, putting a great deal of work into randomly getting some 1024 plot.

What if you want something bigger? The bulk buyers are competing for those, otherwise, they wouldn't so consistently and constantly win them. And yes, while you do have to be smart (and I think you are) and bid appropriately for the current situation, one of the bulk buyers is gonna win by going that slight one step beyond and securing that much needed large plot.

This makes for very small, incremental increases in land price as the same people are competing over and over. Yes, price is somewhat about supply and demand, but other factors are involved as well. . . look at GOM, there's Always a supply of lindens to be bought, but the price goes up and down and up and down. In tiny increments. Similar theory. The GOM model is more one of panic. . . the sell column sits where its at, and the buy column sits where it's at. At some point, the pressure of waiting gets too great for someone in one of the groups, and they either place a Buy order that is one cent higher than the current highest, or a Sell order that is one cent lower. Others see these things happen, and it affects they're current buying/selling strategy. GOM tends to go up and down quite a bit because so many people are involved adding more chaos to the system. The land auction market tends to be a fairly gradual and steady climb, because thus far, there's a fairly small number of bulk buyers. The majority of people aren't willing yet to dump the kind of $ into SL that is required to be a bulk buyer.

The only time you're gonna see a sharp drop down in these types of systems is when the market is FLOODED by supply, as in the recent month or so with land, and with GOM, when a certain person or persons decides to offload their amassed horde.

Continually we're being told that if we want land at the current market value, we need to get it in the auctions. But if you look at the auctions, this just isn't happening. The overwhelming majority of the larger than 1024 plots are being sold to the same handful of bulk buyers. Another issue is that the bulk buyers, while somewhat concerned with location, are much more concerned with size and volume, which gives them a distinct advantage over a player shopping for themselves as that person will probably have made an effort to pick and choose. The frustration of constantly losing any auctions you attempt to the same handful of people will quickly drive most single plot bidders out of the auctions. It's a Big Dog market, which means the majority just can't hang on the porch.

Is this system fair or not? I think it is totally fair, it's a matter of perspective as to if you like it. Is the above happening? Yes. I think you might be seeing "crusaders" in people who very easily see the actual situation, and are a little tired of being told repeatedly that it is another situation.

I applaud the fact that you are "winning" the land market game over the rest of us. But please please please, stop telling us that the biggest players in that game have no effect on the market.

Very well said One. Bravo.

Cath

Mmmm, old discussion popping up again

I think it is a good suggestion to limit the ability to bid on auction after somebody defaults on land and returns it. Personally, I never used this option and I don't understand why anybody should return land one day and then bid on new auctions the next day.

Concerning land price I made a very interesting observation. When I started my business some time ago, land prices were high and I knew that I only need lower price of a piece of land and it will sell fast. But last month when snow land price reached bottom I set up some land for sale very very cheap. I wanted sell fast to reduce my land tier. However, this did not significantly increase my sales. I had very good land for sale at 2.8 L$ per sqm but people obviously did not care, they did not buy the cheap land more often than land I had for 4 or 5 L$ per sqm on sale. So I think convenience mattered more and people simply did not bother compare price much. Also, lower price did not really increase demand for land.

Well, as to the original poster on this thread: How about you stop griefing the person who was so nice and designed those gorgeous oriental style sale signs that I am using now? And, hmmm, how much did you actually pay for that land that you are trying to sell for, what? 80 L$ per sqm? Oh my! I really feel sorry for you, you must be very unhappy person with your attitute