Buying and Selling Land

Shiny cards with full perms available for $1 at Davenport..

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Hmm check that, due to shiny card reselling for $1000, the creator seems to have taken them off the market... ah well, it was good while it lasted....

After carefully looking at the completed auctions again today I am quickly losing hope that any decent size parcels can be purchased for a fair price.

I know what the land brokers paid for their land. I have firgured out how much US$ and SL$ those costs are. I also know that that amount will go up a great deal once the new owner spends 5 min dividing up the areas they purchased. Then spends another 10 sec dragging a for sale sign from their inventory to the property.

I looked and looked for a decent plot this week every time I found one the land surrounding it was filled with for sale signs. Or worse there was no place to expand to.

Even if I buy one decent plots, the other plots are so over priced from what they paid, I wouldn't give the owner the satisfaction of buying those lots. No matter how much I wanted to expand.

Lindens please listen I don't have any interest in purchasing your virtual land from a middle man who just buys in bulk, and jacks the price up. I feel like I am being taken.

What it comes down to is RL $ these prices have gotten insain, I will not feed more money into a this system. No matter how ppl try to twist verbage, or how they try to convince everyone of what a great service they provide....

I know from the start that the only person getting screwed; is me.

I even placed are large bid on an entire sim this week. Now if you will notice the latest sim now on the auction block is going for 1800.00US$ + Why the hell would I do that when I can purchase an island for 1/2 that. This system is flawed.

Thanks for listening.

Cat

i would continue to respondwith the land barons perspective but cathernine you are obiovusly (ooh my gosh! is jauani really going to say it?) a big fat TROLL!

Spoken like a true land broker Jauani, after seeing all the bids you won yesterday/lastl night I was expecting yet another jab/insult/snide remark from all land brokers. I shall consider the source.

Respect my previous post, I asked that you not post to me any further.

Thanks

how many - 0? wow that's a lot.
you could have won that 1800m2 plot if you had bid a respectable 50 USD that is the market price. but then my advice isn't for people interested in placing a loser bid to complain in the forum.

btw, if you find the land i purchased a few days ago in world you can see my markup and report it to the forum.

This is a very important discussion -- what's the best way to get new land into Second Life? Large parcels sold to 'developers' or small parcels sold one by one? There are obviously pros and cons to both, and your ideas will make a difference as we think about how much land to bring online and in what size parcels.

Please don't let personal insults get in the way of what could continue to be a very productive thread.

Seriously, no offense Robin, but more and more I think I've come to realise that you guys must have a different dictionary than mine to define 'developer'. It's a misnomer in the case of the incentives, and it's a misnomer in relation to the land brokers. Just my opinion, but I think the person who ends up with the land is the developer as they are the ones who add value to the game.

Oh, sorry, and to be constructive - I think you should continue to sell both large and small plots, most likely, more small than large. The only change I'd like to see is to make land non resellable. Basically, if a person no longer wants to pay tier costs, then they can release it, only back to SL, who could then reauction it. This makes absolute sense to me, as being the producers of the land, SL should get all the profit from it.

This would make people seriously consider land purchases, and also tend to have them stick with land long enough to develop a worthwhile project. The commodity in SL should be people's creative use of prims on land, not the land itself.

I wonder, why does everyone hates #1, and land barons in general, instead of understanding that the system is created and owned by Uncle Philip? It is his sign that holds this world together, or tears it apart.

My vote is short: Every size parcel from 512 to full sims auctioned at regular intervals KEPT ON SCHEDULE. Not hard. Earlier this month philip claimed that on average everyone has 1 acre of land added to the system, so if 10 new users join then 10 new acres are added to the auctions. However, "In august we were admittedly behind and added more to catch up." I wonder if basic users are brought into this equation and wonder if this is the optimal strategy, but regardless the key has to be stability.

This move to full sims is exactly the move 'Uncle Philip' was forced to take with the cards, with only one exception: Land prices needed to rise, as much as people might not agree or be willing to admit it -the markets crashed as the linden's flooded way too many snow sims in and brought prices down to nearly worthless. One good way of raising prices and stopping the fall is restricting auction sales, which they did through both quantity and size and type. The key is to balance this back toward compitition once the market is more stable and return confidence to the investors that were(are) the lifeblood of the L$ and land values prior to the 'problem'. In my opinion it should be recognized that although land barony shouldn't be frowned upon by either us peons or the linden lab establishment it should also not be encouraged via literally forcing everyone else out of the market through even further consolidation of resources. When these conversations about land come up a persistent question always comes to mind - What is Linden policy on employee alt account land holdings?

Like One has been saying - what SL is ending up with here, in internet terms, is a bunch of "BUY THIS DOMAIN NOW!!!" kind of things, no real content, just a few large sellers. If it is Linden Lab's interest to have nothing but vapid plots, I'd say your plan is spot-on.

Welcome to the DDC One, (Disillusioned Developers Club), the only 'Developing' I'll be doing is on some scattered islands where I'm allowed to build, and the sandboxes. The last time I tried to get a permanent 'stake' to show my stuff was an absolute disaster.

Yes, I noticed that, Cat. The auctions seem to be heading back towards the state they were in a month or so ago. Your bidding strategy was pretty much the same as mine would have been, too....

I'm still hoping the bids slow down as we reach the tail end of the Lost Lakes rollout, but who knows - it's a crap shoot right now

Catherine - How ironic that you managed to learn so much about the bidding process in such a short time.

Congratulations in winning the bidding for a plot of land in the last 20 seconds of bidding.

You may now join the ranks of those whom you despise so much.

Jauani; $50.00 for a 1808 plot of land works out to be about 10k L$, or about 5.5L per m2. Who decides what a parcel is worth. You claim its worth is $50.00US why that figure, why not more? Why not less. I believe this is one of the key points of this discussion.

Just because you throw out an arbritary number does not make it an "official" price for any parcel of land. As I have been around since beta I know at one point that same size of land went for $1808L$ at one point. What is fair to me? Depending on the location but more so what is surrounding that location. As well as other indicators such as; are there telehubs near? I know that the land is all based on $1L per m2 as a start point in every single auction starting price. I also believe land brokers are trying to artificialy inflate those prices for their own personal gain.

From what I have read in this thread thus far I have a few new opinions. One being that that only be resold to the lindens and go back on the auction block. That will in fact encourage ppl to develop the land that they own. Which in my opinion is a huge part of SL. Given the choice to fly by empty plot after empty plot or various builds I choose; various builds. Two; There is no need to pay anyone but a Linden for virtual space it's their company, its their servers, its their man hours to create that virtual space. They are doing the hard work and should be the ones compensated for it.

Catherine

Thank you very much Robin Very well said.

Cat

Agreed they should be referred to as Land Brokers or Real Estate Agents.

Please see my previous posts I absolutly agree with you.

Cath

Dispise? That is pretty harsh. I have been waiting an waiting for any decent land at any decent price just as you have. What makes you think I am going to jack the price up 10x's what its worth and try to sell it? Dispise? I am looking for group land for a Christmas Project I am doing.

Irony has nothing to do with it, it was a good price I saw it I bought it. Just as you.

Cath

Well, I personally think that was a great price for land in Dosojin! I'm surprised no-one bid more. Cliffy, if you'd won it, that would have been an even better price for you. Congratulations, Catherine! You won an auction that had less land barons bidding than other residents!

The Takalo lot? Little more pricey, but good enough for that size of land - I think it will work well for you.

Saturday morning auctions win out again!

Wow your first post is to attack someone. There is nothing ironic about her winning the land. Anyone who wins land at whatever price they can get it is a good thing if they are going to use the land to build on. If they are just going to turn around and resell it for even more money, that is lame, and what the entire point of this is. You obviously missed that.

In response to Robin Lindens thread, I agree its an important discussion without the personal attacks..however only a small minority of SLers actually write their opinions in forums. Those with strong convicitions are generally seen in forums. An issue that is just as important to me is once you get your slice of heaven and build your dream home...how do you stop malls and clubs from arriving and lagging you to death. I have now sold twice to escape and sure enough Ihave now got my perfect plot and along comes a massive club!!! Caveoy Emptor I guess.

I believe the wink implied that what I said was tongue in cheek....

Or is irony still lost on some nationalities?

I repeat congratulations to Catherine in winning the bidding.

lol well now Cliffy ty for clearing that up

TY too Catherine
... at least I'm not bitter lol

this price is decided by the market. i believe schwanson has best explained this in the past. since the USD is used to buy the majority of land auctions (i believe L$ auctions are used strategically by LL to maintain the quantity L$ ), land prices are tied directly to USD. the real world inequities make a situation that some may value land more than others. the land in world is priced relative to this as well based on the stable exchange rate of L$ to USD.

the price is decided by what the market will bare. if you look at the going rate for new mature non snow land in world it is about 8 L$/m. for an 1800 plot, that is 14500 L$. given that over head for this land is .7 L$/m2 - 1200 L$. that means that the speculator must pay no more than 13300 if they believe they can turn the land in less than a month. but with no control over land supply there must be a buffer incase land prices drop as well. so once you factor in a 10% margin, you are looking at 12000 L$, maybe 10000 or 11000 to play it safe. approximately 50 USD.
this is not a static value, but dynamic, and i offered it based on the current market. LL has provided a lot of land, but many players do not consider a winter wasteland as the ideal fantasy escape (like i do). so although LL is keeping up with supply, it has created a substantial difference in price between snow and non snow land.
i was also around in beta, catherine. it is ridiculous to compare beta to live post 1.2. there is auctions, there is USD, and real life inequities will factor into the land market.
definitely surrounding area is a factor. telehub land goes for such incredible prices i do not understand that market. but apparently some wealthy players value it's convenience (for personal use or commercial) to bid 20 L$/m2.

i have to go eat, i will post later about why i believe the conspiracy theory that speculators can push up prices is really a stretch, and why i think returning all land to LL is actually a bad thing, particularly to less affluent players.

I feel same way, at the end of the day SL is only game, and for these very reasons I felt i didn’t belong in SL, seemed no point making a home, if we have all these kind of things to deal with, pointless, that price for a peace of land you don’t own, and can loose at any time, and is virtual, is simply insane.

I guess my feet are too firmly on the ground for things like SL, i just don’t get it.

I have nothing against the auctions, i mean they serve a purpose i guess, ok so the price is well out of reach for a lot, but then the owner of the land owns the land, and he/she chooses to sell or not.

If its used in a malicious way, like some comments buy land cheap, then sell at hi price, this is not on, since they take cheap land from the ones that need it, as a result people like me end up with nothing.

So how to regulate a land on auctions, few ideas, one way would to put a bought land contract, which means a person has to have the land for x amount of time, AND build on it, before it can be sold on.

Its a total waste if no one builds on SL, we need homes, places to see, a feeling of belonging.

I think this thread has pretty much covered everything, so this will be my last post, I haven’t seen many people suggesting ideas on how to combat this though ?

There is not overhead or margins when buying directly from LL. I am of the belief that if parcels are set at a fair price so ppl can expand then they will naturaly do so.