Buying and Selling Land

i am not an expert either, pendari. i'm still looking forward for one to step forward and set us all straight with more rigourous analysis.

as i was telling viola today when she was chastizing me for my usual defrauding noobie's...
(just kidding. we were discussing if she misrepresented firechick's comments to andrea and whether firechick might not have told andrea she was going to just suck it up and take the fall for uncle philip's supply problems)

i think a big issue here is one of perception.

a reality i accept is that LL has chosen an open market model to run all of the inworld economics. they control the supply of land and L$ but do not interfere with it's regulation save for the basic stipend and the basic L4L plot.

another reality i have accepted is that the game economy is influenced by RL USD. the lindens facilitate the curerency exchange, there by eliminating the advantage content creators once had. there is a level playing field now between content creaters and players with greater RL disposable incomes.

in this model it is natural for some players to take the oppurtunity of profiting when they can by speculating on the swings in land prices or micro fluctuations. the perception is land barons are manipulating land, but the reality is they are serving an inworld consumer base that doesn't want to be bothered by any hassles. because of the inequities in USD bases open land market some players are being marginalised

as the world grows, i believe the land pool will make the market increasingly impervious to price manipulation by players off the auctions or in world.



i agree that there should be multiple options, specially ones that allow players with less expendable USD to participate in the game to a sufficient degree. i find the L4L idea to be a really great way to create a sort of "social welfare" system to offset the cruel capitalist land market.

the problem i find with limiting certain players to various auctions is that it will interfere with the free market experiment. how does one determine who is a speculator who is not? and many of us are both speculators and end consumers and do not keep alts to keep our integrity. i don't think this will eliminate the real problem, which is RL inequities. furthermore, i can immediately think of a way to game this idea, which is to create a seperate account on a seperate credit card to bid on auctions my main account is ineligible for

viola and i were discussing the idea of expanding the L4L program might be a good idea, perhaps recognizing that the "poverty line" in SL is not 512 m2 but 2048 or something in that range. if this land is untradeable, perhaps make all players eligible for this land if they have no land. i think this could reduce the market price, as these are the parcel sizes that seem to dictate market price.

and as we were also discussing, a free market is great, but unlike RL, people it marginalises have the choice to log off, and if LL is worried about that, i would be too. i would much prefer to have an SL to play than protect the ideals of a free market that results in this game shutting down

Deklax, it is pointless to argue. This debate is not driven by people who can't afford land because of land price. The real battle is about the question wether or not people are allowed to make profit from trading and speculation, as opposed to producing. This fight is not new and has happened in real world society a few decades ago. Both Communists in China and Nazis in Europe labeled those who don't produce but who simply "profitate" by trading with goods made by others as "parasites" of society. In communist countries this led to the elimination of business people and merchants and lead to bureacrazies take over the role of holding goods and doing resource allocation as well as distribution.

It is astonishing that the same sentiments and the same kinda debate now comes up in a virtual community, this time driven mostly by a small group of American citizens. It is almost as if not only the physical aspects of a world are built in SL now, but also some of the same struggles to define a society and economy that once ocurred in RL are now repeated here.

the only reason i've ever posted in this "debate" is my concern from hearing newbies complain that land is impossible to win in auction without spending far more money than their willing to invest in a video game their first few weeks inworld. i realize that it doesn't meet the parameters of high intellectual discussions about innovative virtual economies or deep socialogical patterns. it's just simple observation.

well who the hell are they anyway? hardly the future of the world - silly newbies - what do they expect? i'm sure that we, and ll, can do without them. we will certainly not budge on our principles to accomodate them. party on!

You try to perpepuate this poor Chinese business girl with affected English act against the big bad American imperlialists who just want to hold you down while you escape abject poverty or having to rely on the wealth of your husband, while supporting your mother in mainland China. The story gets more involved as you go along - you are turning it into quite the historical melodrama. Perhaps they can make a musical out of it

You evoke the Nazis (and at the same time, evoke Jewish conspiracy as well, a bit bipolar of you) and Communism, democracy, free markets, blah blah blah. Anshe the champion of the people! The players who speak out against you are from the US, Canada, Mexico, England...the list of countries go on. You use "small group of American citizens" in some contemptuous way, but all of the contempt is centered squarely on you, whether you are in Zurich or Zimbabwe.

Your business practices are called into question regardless of your ethnicity, citizenship, or gender. It doesn't have anything to do with what country you are in (except when you tell players they are paying a higher fee because you have to pay to convert to euros). It has to do with the fundamentally corrupt ways that you operate your business in SL. Save the nationalism and faux patriotism for the Presidential elections.

PS - your producer vs traders argument is tired, though at least you finally acknowledge you aren't producing a damn thing except healthy fees for Paypal. Schwanson Schlegel trades land, Billy Grace trades land, Lisse Livingston trades land, Jaunani Wu trades land. This is purely about YOUR business practices and lack of any ethics. So all of your grandiose speech about the past and how shocking it is to see history repeat itself in a virtual world is amusing, but completely disconnected from the reality of why people speak out against you solely.

in nomeni patri, et fili spiritus sancti (not sure if im spelling this correctly but you know what im saying im sure.

You're going to have to do a better job of explaining what you mean by this and why you should be taken seriously. Making such bizarre comparisons to the situation in Second Life require you to cite specific evidence and build a convincing argument. Please do so.

Otherwise, these assertions look like nothing more than cheap demagoguery and rhetorical terrorism -- designed to discredit your opponents through strong emotional reaction, rather than reasoned debate.

Much like the tactics of Hitlerian National Socialism and the Chinese Communist Party after 1949...you know?

i would like someone who opposes the speculator perspective answer dexlak's query and explain how a mature sim was won on the auctions for 650 USD last month if our ideas on supply, demand and market price are incorrect.

Two words:

Godwins Law.

Nuff Said.

Godwin's Law, from Wikipedia:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. There is a tradition in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. In addition, whoever points out that Godwin's Law applies to the thread is also considered to have "lost" the battle, as it is considered poor form to invoke the law explicitly.

I agree with you, Siggy. But give her a chance to respond reasonably, since the law was publicly invoked. If she can't, then this thread needs to close.

Not an economic answer, but I guess the answer is a combination of:

1) People who wanted a whole Sim became disillusioned about the auction process and neglected to check the auction page regularly/that day, and:

2) People looked at the bidding history, remembered the bidding history from the previous few whole Sims, worked out what the current high bidder's maximum bid must be, and didn't bother to bid as they knew it was higher than they were prepared to go. (And they weren't of the mindset to bid anyway, just to drive the price up for the eventual winner)

I'm also willing to bet that's the last time we'll see a whole Sim won for under four figures for quite some time to come.

Easily - there is a decided lack of interest in full mainland sims, as the island sims are more desireable because they afford you with full terraforming, new textures, and much fuller control, along with a telehub. Additionally, the player base to purchase individual sims is much smaller, as the $200 month tier is out of reach for most players, and those who it is not out of reach for generally opt for a private sim. As LL recently flooded the market with several full sims at once for purchase, it is not surprising one went for so low, it happened once before in the past with Inari. It really has no bearing on the argument overall, as entire sim sales are far rarer events than the auctioning of individual plots.

you are saying:
- players are unwilling to pay $$ for gridded sims because ungridded sims are a better deal
- more players want smaller parcels
- the supply had gone up relative to demand because LL had flooded the market

you have just supported my case that supply and demand dictate market prices and that there is less player demand for large parcels, opening a possibility for a margin for an intermediary who parcels the land to sizes with greater demand.

thanks cris

Wow you should work for the Bush campaign. How you got any of that from what I said is beyond me. Ungridded sims are a better deal financially, they are undesireable from a control standpoint for players doing anything BUT RESELLING LAND to other players at a profit. I certainly wouldn't want to shell out the money for a grid sim just to find it lagged all to hell by the casino/club/whorehouse/mall of the Americas right on the edge of a neighboring sim. It is no wonder that island sims have been so popular, even with the steep upfront costs.

As far as more players wanting smaller parcels, again, you are arguing apples and oranges here, which is stupid. An entire sim purchase is a specialised situation, unrelated to normal land transactions. While there is not a heavy market for entire sims, there is a market for 4096m, 8192m, etc. plots. Granted, one would not know that since the second sims are bought out, they are being cut up into crappy little 512m plots.

If the person who won the sim were using it to build in and not resell, your argument would hold more validity. As it stands, someone gets to make even more profit because there were only enough vultures to compete for the first few sims.

perhaps you can attack my french language based sentence structure in your next post to be more consistent with your usual rhetoric. anyway, since you didn't realize the precise implications of your own words, i will clarify them for you:you are stating that when people are buying land at a scale comparable to a sim, island sims are the favoured option because of added benefits, reducing demand for gridded simsyou you are stating that there is a much smaller consumer base for a sim tier. presumably, you will not suggest that consumer demand for all tiers are equal except at the sim level, but that the demand tapers approaching the sim tier.you are stating that that LL has flooded the market for this parcel size relative to demand, causing the the price to drop. presumably you will not deny that the sim example carries over to other large parcel sizes but not only with an added reduction because of competition with island sims

what you have explained is that the sim went so cheaply was because LL had flooded the market with sims AND that demand for sims is low to begin with compared to smaller plots. so not only are you agreeing that supply and demand create the market (for sims size parcels), but from your points one can draw the logical conclusion that if supply and demand regulate all prices, there will be a price differential per unit between large and small parcels.
the fact you are over looking is all land is composed of the same base unit - 16m2. all land is apples. island sims are oranges. when you see a sim auction and then it is parcelled up you see the perversity of an orange carved into 128 apples. i see 128 apples being auctioned together.

btw, as for gridded sims being less desirable, gridded sim owners like myself have the comfort to know that when we grow bored of our sim, it still retains a large consumer base to uphold it's value. island owners are guaranteed to lose some of thier capital unless they sell the added value of thier development. there are benefits to island sims, but there are also benefits to apple sims. for this reason many players have paid large sums of money for gridded sims.

Pwned!

LF > CC

-AP

Your sentence structure has never once been called into question by me so that is a misplaced attack, but nice try. I have specifically commented on Anshe's switch between flawless English and the affected way she speaks when she wants sympathy as just one of the ways she manipulates people. Have conversations with Anshe at different times and it is like speaking to two totally different people, figuratively if not literally.

The rest of your post I won't comment on, since we can go back and forth ad nauseum until we are both blue in the face, and both think the other is full of shit. Have a wonderful evening, Jauani.

Wow. Mr. Wu seems almost paranoid. Don't worry Cris, he accused me of being anti-Canadian on your site. That is a laugh for several reasons. I have Canadian relatives. I LOVE vacationing in Canada. I have dated girls form Canada (as well as Mexico, Germany, and Korea). He lamented my criticism of his grammar, and I suppose that is where he got the anti-Canadian idea from, however, it was never about word order, sentence structure or the like. It was about capitalization. If you read some of the ads he has posted he usually capitalizes. I was simply pointing out that he can't be bothered to do so when replying to other posters. As far as I know, the french language employs capitalization too. I could elaborate further but it won't help. Jauani, even though it has been stated 100s of times that himself, Lisse, Billy, Schwan and other *barons* are not the problem, suffers from an uncontrollable urg/need/desire to manage a PR campaign for speculators. Damage control if you will. (What is he so afraid of? After all only 10% of SLers read the forums, right?) The odd thing is, which is related to my previous statement, these threads are NEVER about him, yet he continues to play defense atty. and peddle the notion that market value is created by *what the market will bear*, He completely ignores or is unaware of the fact that reason prices became what they are today was because of the actions of a few speculators immediately after the roll out of 1.2. It's a bit like the RIAA and MPAA when they try to claim the prices of CDs and DVDs are the result of what *the market will bear*, when we all know why they do it, because they can and they got the jump on the situation.

For Pendari; if you disagree with Jauani it inevitably turns into a pissing match, he just has to be right and has to get the last word. He cannot accept that two conditions (or opinions) may co-exist, it's his way or the highway. If you dont roll over and play dead he will mock you, question your state of mind, your intelligence and your lack of common sense. He will toss out little jabs, followed by a wink. How clever. Then he will act all offended when he gets some crap slung back at him.

As far as the Bush comparision goes, it seems appropriate to me, insult your opponent (attack) for their beliefs, then cry *I am being attacked * when someone doesn't turn the other cheek.

thanks for your life story, nolan.

edit:
deleted the rest of the post

yes we definitely could. as long as i feel there is some new point being made, i will respond if no one else does. the posts are just as much for the new player and oldbie lurkers as they are for each other.

my arguement isn't that the current system is the best system, but that under the current system, what anshe, schwanson, myself, or any other speculator does is entirely acceptable, beneficial, and most importantly ethical. what differentiates anshe from the rest because is the scale of her operation and how that allows her to bid more aggressively and to close the margin because of the sheer volume she trades. but conceptually, what she does is the same as the rest of us and as long as the forum discourse attacks the ethics of speculation or intruduces yet another propoganda theory, i will defend our actions where they are similar by offering my perspective.

anshe's alleged linguistic inconsistencies or percieved arrogance are a seperate issue from the ethics of her SL enterprise. these things are irrelevant to the buying and selling of land or to discussing how to make the land market stay in an accessible range for the greatest proportion of players.

i took issue with catherine's posts because she refused to post anything of substance, instead just stirring the pot of public opinion, and i take issue with your rhetoric that is meant to discredit another poster based on personal matters out side of the content of thier posts. not to say i'm at all comparing your posts to the contentless diatribes of our favorite pop-psychologist.

Believe me Oh Wise Sage if I had an inferiority complex pertaining to you I would either check myself into a mental health facility or jump off the nearest bridge higher than 120 feet.

Obsessed? Hah! Amused by your incessant rhetoric? Probably. Maybe I should try it too. If I repeat myself enough at the same time as belittling others intellect and opinions I will convince them they are wrong! The only obsession I see is yours. You post half page long tirades to each and every person who shares a different opinion of you. You mock, belittle and have a plethora of labels to draw upon.

Life story? Hardly. There was one sentence referring to me in my post. How predictably selective of you to only refer to the portions which suit your argument. Degrade, dismiss, and ignore. Carry on soldier. Keep fighting the good fight! Someone has to show the whining hordes of stupid people who is right! You go Jauani!

P.S., You folks with opinions to the contrary to those of the ever witty Jauani are all in violation of the first rule in Jauani's handbook of common sense: I thought it, therefore I must be right and anyone who disagrees will be labelled and summarily dismissed as intellectually inferior or crazy"

Jauani to CC: "if you still do not understand please ask very precise questions so i can answer clearly why you are crying about nothing."

again to CC: "pissing contest or debate? i don't think you are prepared for either. good luck to you too."

And again: "i would continue to respondwith the land barons perspective but cathernine you are obiovusly (ooh my gosh! is jauani really going to say it?) a big fat TROLL!"

And yet again: "but then my advice isn't for people interested in placing a loser bid to complain in the forum."

To Cristiano: "i do not have feel the need to defend my practices from belligerent people with half baked propoganda ideas about collusion, conspiracy, and philip's sex clones managing the land market."

To people who disagree with him in general: "The "crusaders" to me are ignorant zealots.."

Again to the same group of *crusaders*: "this is a problem with the SL public not putting thier money where thier mouth is and the creation of a false morality by this lethargic mass. "

Yet again: "hereforth, i deem any player who contimues to state that land speculators at large are immoral or ruining second life to be at least one of the following
1> anti open market
2> illogical
3> jealous (begrudging another persons sense of enjoyment and succes)
4> selfish (desiring large plots for below market values)
5> immoral (knowingly manipulating public discourse for self serving purposes)"

Who started the derision? I am not literary genius but if you don't see how you come across by the above statement you are the one who is a lunatic, not I.

nolan, it's not my fault your real life sucks.

edit:

btw. you are #2 - illogical. 1.2 introduced USD. speculators adapted quickly to the new market. #5 - ignoring the context and tone of discussions in your relentless obsessive pursuit of me to manage your inferiorty complex. oh and #6 - bad kisser

Contentless? No. Content ignored? Yes. Because I choose to not let you get away with your little pokes and jabs at individuals and the populace in general you focus on that, ignoring any content, such as those I pointed out 2 posts ago. Like the fact that the $L per m2 amount was arbitrarily settled upon by the initial speculators after 1.2 came out. You also ignored my point about the RIAA and MPAA. See how that works Jauani? If you are derisive, even if only in 10% of what you post , most of the substance will be ignored because you are projecting some sort of superiority complex. If you could respond without the little barbs we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

I find your "it's not my fault your real life sucks" comment extremely immature.

You have no idea about my real life other than where I am from and that I can't stand people who condescend and are overly confident. I have a fine life and I certainly won't get into the reasons for that lest I run the risk of being thanked once again for my *life story*...

Who knows, you may learn to play nice someday, your edit above is a promising sign.

Ah, but again, in the case of Anshe, the manner of speech, the story of why she must charge inflated prices, the actions to avoid tier fees, the nastiness, et al. has been done as part of her business practices. That you are painted with the same broad brush by some is unfortunate, but I am not using it to discredit her. For example, BigJohn Jade may speak in an incomprehensible way to many, but he does not use that as a manipulation as part of business tactics. Anything that Anshe posts in these forums related to land trading is for pure public relations, since god knows she needs some spin, and as such, the tactics she uses in speaking, in evokng Nazis, Communism, Bhudda, whatever, are relevant to the discussion of her land trading business. I do not see you calling her out for her rhetoric filled posts, Jauani, if you were to do so, then I would at least consider you consistent about taking issue about rhetoric and discrediting people.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! More labels! What a hoot! I feel like I am on the schoolyard playground again!

TONE: read the following then tell me again about tone:

Jauani to CC: "if you still do not understand please ask very precise questions so i can answer clearly why you are crying about nothing."

again to CC: "pissing contest or debate? i don't think you are prepared for either. good luck to you too."

And again: "i would continue to respondwith the land barons perspective but cathernine you are obiovusly (ooh my gosh! is jauani really going to say it?) a big fat TROLL!"

And yet again: "but then my advice isn't for people interested in placing a loser bid to complain in the forum."

To Cristiano: "i do not have feel the need to defend my practices from belligerent people with half baked propoganda ideas about collusion, conspiracy, and philip's sex clones managing the land market."

To people who disagree with him in general: "The "crusaders" to me are ignorant zealots.."

Again to the same group of *crusaders*: "this is a problem with the SL public not putting thier money where thier mouth is and the creation of a false morality by this lethargic mass. "

Yet again: "hereforth, i deem any player who contimues to state that land speculators at large are immoral or ruining second life to be at least one of the following
1> anti open market
2> illogical
3> jealous (begrudging another persons sense of enjoyment and succes)
4> selfish (desiring large plots for below market values)
5> immoral (knowingly manipulating public discourse for self serving purposes)"

Get it?. YOU set the tone with your unnecessary add-ins. Live with the response or stop.

mr decontextulizer:
preceded by catherine's evasion of supporting her claims with evidence or analysis
preceded by a string of one or two line back patting posts.
and it wasn't. do you have reading comprehension issues? what good would my advice do someone who didn't really wish to win?
did you read this thread or just linger on my posts?
that is the problem. some people have lots of money. some pepole don't. in a free market it is not wrong for those with money to dictate prices. you are a crusader. crusader to save SL from the evil jaunaniso? is that any different from the blanket statement that land barons are anti community, profiteers, noob scammers, greedy, unethical, that are posted regularly on the board? do i need your written permission to create a polemic to try to put maxx on the defensive momentarily? he was a sport about it. i don't think he needed your protection.

i think your helmet is strapped too tight mr. policeman. good job at hijacking the thread.