Buying and Selling Land

I read the whole thread, have been keeping up with it for days. I just finally got sick of your label ridden remarks again. Shame on me. I find it extremely ironic that you call me a *policeman* yet here you are, patrolling the forums incessantly, and putting people *on the defense* for doing nothing other than stating an opinion. You admit this yourself. You go as far as to assume people take offense to you because you speak French, you are a Canadian, you are a Land Baron, etc. I don't care if you lived down the street from me I would still take umbrage at your attitude which, whether you realize it or not, comes off as quite abrasive and condescending at times.

I have never seen anyone label all barons as you stated above, and I myself certainly never have. If they would've or did, I would or did disregard their posts. I have gone out of my way, as have others, to point out the barons who are NOT problem speculators. So, I can only assume that you are afraid that people posting about SOME barons with ludicrous tactics (Such as holding 3.5 sims worth of land unclaimed, well PAST the 7 day period) will affect your bottom line. Protecting your margin; that's what's paramount here right? Who cares if you have to portray a few people as <insert overused labels here>, along the way.

You speak of differing perceptions. You are spot on with that observation. You should bear that in mind as you look at your endlessly label fraught, insult tainted droning about why we are wrong and you are right from an oustsider's aspect. You refuse to police yourself or even TRY to see how you come across. So instead you will continue to deride and try to police those who do not hold the same opinions as you.

You accuse me of being a *policeman* yet being a *policeman* and lawyer for all barons, regardless of their history, seems to be your intent in this thread and any others pertaining to the shifty methods employed by SOME speculators. When will you see that it isn't directed at you? When will you stop portraying people who disagree with you as stupid, complaining, illogical lunatics? You label and marginalize anyone with a different opinion than yours, then cry foul when someone pushes back. It's simple literary *physics*. "If you can't take the heat..."

I will not address your point by point analysis of my quoting of you because, (wow! you accuse ME of explaining myself too much? Just that fact you feel compelled to explain away each of your condescending remarks should be cause some self examination) I was simply trying to show you that YOU set the tone. It doesn't matter if you thought you were making some profound statements. No one was talking down to you Jauani, yet you did so to them. I guess you just can't help it. I guess it makes you feel better about yourself when you pigeon-hole people. I guess it's one of your ways of convincing yourself you are right.

So people back pat each other and it makes you so upset you have to deride them? Your self described *fan club* pats you on the back, should we go out of our way to label them and talk down to you and/or them?

"that is the problem. some people have lots of money. some pepole don't. in a free market it is not wrong for those with money to dictate prices. you are a crusader. crusader to save SL from the evil jaunani"

Man, you assume WAY too much as usual. You need to stop reading into things and then responding with half-cocked, thinly veiled insults. You aren't evil, never thought you were. As a matter of fact I STILL send people looking for land to Schwan, Lisse, or YOU. Yes, YOU Jauani. Because YOU are fair (in the land game that is). How long will it take to pound that into your head? Again, you are DEFINATELY right on about perception, you percieve that I or we think you are evil. I may think you are condescending, with an bizarre penchant for giving fatherly lectures and labelling people you are in discord with, but I hardly think you are evil.

As far as Adam's post goes, it was the opinion of one person, that, and the fact that he never said he was referring to all barons. If you assume he was referring to you, well, I guess you should think about why you are so overly sensitive. Grow some thicker skin, state your opinions without talking down to people, and this can end.

This thread was started with a personal opinion. It was not an open door to an all out war on how the numbers break down in comparision to the global market. I have an opinion, but I do not have all the answers. It's not my way or no way, I want to know what some of the most brilliant ppl in the game think. I want to hear what the occasional player thinks. I want to know how ppl feel about this issue. Maybe we "together" can come up with a better solution than to just live with the current system.

A discussion would be nice, an adult conversation would be nice without fear of old issues or personal issues or vailed insults being throw at those caring to post in this thread. I have watched this conversation degrade over the past few days.

This should not be allowed to happen.

Land brokers may be happy with the current system, but its very apparant now that they are the minority in thinking that everything is great as far as land costs go.

Jauani why do I need land brokers? What service exactly do you give me the land buyer? Why is it better to buy from you instead of directly from LL. I haven't heard one valid reason for a NEED for land brokers. Exactly how long does it take you to parcel up a 2048 plot of land into 512 m2 plots? How long does it take you to type; "Land For Sale"? How long does it take to drag a for sale sign out of your inventory and on to the ground. How much is your commiision? Are you planning on paying taxes on those commisions? If your going to want to treat this like RL then give some rl answers.

I haven't heard one valid reason for a NEED for land brokers yet. I am still left with one of my original thoughts; "Why should I pay the middle man when it is LL that does all the real work for their servers, their virtual land?"

I shouldn't have to.

They aren't needed. That said, I am certainly not against their existence, no more than I am against people who are successful in other avenues within SL. I have however grown weary of the postulate that there is a need. There is no need just as there is no need for cars or pets in SL. There are wants however, let's not confuse the two. This will probably raise the ire of Jauani again, but, the notion that *we provide a service to newbies* is all fine and dandy, but I would ask, when approached by a newbie who is unresearched about the buying and selling of land what does a speculator tell them? I highly doubt they steer them towards researching it themselves. That is fine if the newbie is an instant gratification type, and doesn't care to do the work, but I am guessing that the greater portion either don't know that they do not have to buy from a baron (seeing it as the way SL is structured) or see no alternative. I really think the Lindens need to offer some sort of detailed info when the new person joins, i.e., a buyer beware type of thing in a notecard form and a list of different ways for going about aquiring land.

Then there is the matter of the olbie that becomes frustrated over seeing vast swathes of land flattened and parcelled into 512s with simplistic builds spewing particals all clustered together like barracks on a military base. It really makes portions of the grid look like shanty towns. Before you say it's none of my business what other people do with their land take into mind that we had a developer here in the city I live in almost push through a low income housing project. It was stopped, guess by whom? Us. The residents. Does that make us whiners? I don't think it does. It makes us concerned about crime (griefers), property values and the aesthetic value of our town. after all that development would've affected the decisions of future businesses and residents when shopping for a place to set up shop or call home. I would like to append this by stating that I know that not all barons use the flatten and divide method.

Here is an idea I have been mulling over:

What if the auctions were divided in two, i.e, an end user's auction and a dealer's auction? Then just as with car auctions in RL, only dealers are let in on dealer auctions, and you have to have a dealer's license. A dealer would maybe have to hold a certain minimum tier and be accepted into a *dealer's group*, preferably with a Linden as the founder. Then the folks who don't want to do the legwork will gravitate towards the dealer auction land when it comes up for resale and the folks who care to research the end user's market will feel more hopeful about directly participating in the "open" auction. There would of course be some hurdles with this. There would have to be a mechanism in place to limit the dealers in some way in the open auction, so that it couldn't still be gamed, creating even more headaches than we already have. What that would be is open for debate of course and is one of the sticking points I have with this idea.

I myself have been told by many, many people that they simply refuse to participate in the auctions as they are. Instead of saying things like *put your money where your mouth is* and telling people they are illogical, we should be examining why people feel this way. Hell, some of the folks I am referring to have nothing but outright contempt for the state the auctions are currently in. That said, I am in NO WAY jealous of the barons, I have over a quarter sim and am very happy to that end. I have no interest in competing with or *taking down* the barons. This is about how to make the situation more fair for all, and I believe and agree with Jauani that LL is mostly responsible for this situation, but when some speculators run roughshod over the rules, I am not one bit afraid to voice my disdain and fully encourage others to do so as well.

Geezus, this thread is devolving into nitpicking about grammar and debate styles.

"You said this"

"well, you said this"

"nuh uh, i meant this, besides, you smell"

"no, your mom"

"it's not my fault you're wrong"

"I refuse to post about this any longer... as long as integer TotalPost <= MyOwnPost, and while opponent = neenerhead"

Ugh.

Let's condense this thread into more conducive points of discussion.

1) Land prices are, by some, seen as "high". Others (although a minority) seem to think of it as "what the market will bear". Why does the market bear such obviously inflated prices?

2) How can it be a free market when the same 5 people bid (and win) 80% of the plots? Sounds like a cartel to me.

3) Jauni, Cristiano, Nolan, stop arguing about arguing, it goes nowhere fast, no matter HOW long your posts are.

Now, discuss.

LF

Nolan; That was a pleasure to read thank you for your input and the thought you put into your post. I agree with much of what you have said. As for a solution I am very happy to see another opinion on this current issue.

On a personal note, I absolutly agree with you. A note card about the buying and selling of land should be given to every noob on the noob island. Its important to note that those who have felt taken in their first few days are likely to have a negative feeling about sl as a whole. That is unfortunate and can easily be remedied. I also agree everyone has a right to do what they please in sl. The current state of land is one that I feel is broken. Its not the brokers/barons fault that they took advantage of a loophole that would be the fault of LL's its their system. I also feel that perhaps they were not aware of the extent of the problem before and will rectify the situation.


Cat

Thanks LF well said

Cat

Agreed. I would just like to point out that I myself do not make long posts thinking it will somehow put me ahead in a debate or validate my views. They just happen sometimes, it's not a conscious effort however. As far as the tit for tat stuff, you are right, it's silly. It's just when labels and assumptions start flying in response to simple opinions, I get a little riled up. Not an excuse, guilty as charged. I will maintain positive decorum from here on out.

I too have seen the winning of 80% of auctions by just a few people as you have pointed out, and one can say that we all have the same right to do what those few are doing. However, I think it's in LL's and consequently in SL's best interest to find out why more people aren't. The answer is fairly clear to you and I, but not so with most speculators and possibly LL itself. In any event, this situation will just get worse, the animosity will grow and the population will become further divided. It really needs to be addressed by LL, preferably sooner than later.

I am aware that here and there deals can be had at auction, but that is very hit and miss. Some folks cant sit around for days on end waiting for that gem to crop up. Not to mention that the overall perception of the auctions as an Old West Cattle Baron type scenario is pervasive and hard to change, and a lot of folks are unwilling to venture into that territory.

In the end, I feel we have been left with a legacy created by the arbitrary pricing effected by certain speculators after 1.2, some of whom seem to not even be around anymore. This legacy is know being viewed as a birthright by some of the more recently come of age speculators. They are really victims of those initial speculators too (with the exception of those who obviously game the system). They inherited the mess. What was the real reason speculators immediately after 1.2 decided that land prices needed to be a minimum of *X* times the pre-1.2 price? Instantaneous big gains. Which is probably why you don't see their names as auction winners anymore. Get in, make $, and get out before people start to question why we need to pay 8 to 1 per vs. 4 to 1 or something along those lines. If the current speculators could attain it cheaper, so could the end user, while still maintaining the same margins.

I have kept my repliesto Jauani short and on topic in comparison to their overquoted counterparts, and Nolan and I are mostly in agreement and he has spoken on my behalf Thank you for calling us out like scolded little kids, LF - it is much unappreciated, and belittles the points that have been made in this thread. Don't stick me in the middle of Jauani and Nolan's ongoing battle of words. Jauani and I actually do discuss things back and forth, even when we may argue points. I went to great lengths to illustrate how a small group of players is dominating the auctions, and you reduced my posts to arguing about arguing, instead of responding to anything that I have said.

*wanders into thread*

*looks around, slightly bewildered*

*wanders back out, giggling*

The real fun comes when the market WON'T bear it, when prices start to slide back down.. at this point you start to see posts 'by some' about how the market should be regulated, how an average price should be maintained, and other such rot.

Remember folks, nature balances itself - even virtual nature....

Personally I maintain that Nature is not only a mother, but at times she can be a real motherf*cker

Siggy.

I am starting a Jauani Wu fan club! Woot!

Yeehaww! Glad to see holding over three sims hostage is looked upon as beneficial.

By the way Jauani already has a fan club, or so he told me 3 weeks ago. So sign up!

Don't be jealous Nolan! I am a fan of yours too

I felt my original post had a lot of substance. At the very least it was an honest and open opinion.

I bring up issue that ppl email, IM, and chat with me about. I post about things that "concern" ppl. Change will come in SL as it does in life. To walk around with blinders on doesn't mean it's not happening. There is a huge difference between a debate and a discussion. I am asking for a discussion. In my original post did not name anyone in particular nor did I call anyone on the carpet for their actions. It was written carefully as not to incite certain individuals.

Those that find issue with how I said something should take a step back and look at the big picture. These land prices are not in the best interest of the players, nor are they in the best interest of LL. www.3d? How much does a web site cost? If the price is too high don't you shop around for a better deal? There may be only one SL, but that is this year.

If no one has gotten the big picture yet I think its about "customer retention" The price of playing SL is getting to high and it IS scaring ppl off. If ppl come in thinking they will only pay 9.95 that is a mistake. A decent plot of land is going to cost you $100.00 up front plus the cost of land use fees per month for that parcel. Seriously how many players are going to want to pay that much?

Just before 1.2 I had a huge lot of land I acquired. During 1.2 I was told that land would cost me $40.00 per month to keep it. I sold it off. Why? Because I felt that was a little much for a game every month. (of course now its a different story as I am addicted LOL) At the time I do remember feeling like the newer ppl do now "how much is that going to cost me rl$, yikes!"

So.... The older prices of land were a bit scary when figuring in the monthly RL$ cost. I do understand how ppl now feel knowing that the price is not only higher, but buying it directly from LL is rare. If ppl wanted to pay the amounts now in the auctions they would be winning in the auctions, they aren't.

Cat

Catherine,

I agree with you completely. It is one of the reasons I have been so adamant about this. Land ownership is not something that should only be reserved for wealthy players in SL, and I say that as a wealthy player. I have all the land I probably will ever buy, so I am not arguing this to keep my prices down. I am concerned about how 4-5 players controlling auctions (a cartel, as Lordfly put it), terraforming the hell out of SL, and extracting wealtth without putting anything back into the SL economy is affecting the community as a whole. You are right, there is currently no direct competition to SL, but that will change - it does not exist in a vacuum. We already have bugs out the wazoo and other problems to drive away new players and frustrate existing ones. A land market that is out of reach to many players harms SL more than any short term auction profits. Thank you for starting this thread, even though like all controversial topics, it has gone all over the map.

Thank you Cristiano

So anyone else wish to add a new idea or two ideas are always very welcome and I will do my best to make sure you are able to speak freely

Cat

Now, see - this thread was originally about the difficulty of winning land at auction, right?

Well, I just went through this evening's auctions, and the high bids on all but one lot were placed within 10 minutes of each other, 2 hours ago. Based on past patterns of bidding, I am 100% sure I know who made those bids.

The only lot without a bid placed during that time frame is one currently going for a large amount of L$s - no use to someone with a high limit credit card, and cashing out L$s as quickly as they make 'em.

Yes, maybe someone who really wants the land will come along and bid higher in the next 2 hours till they all close. A quick glance at past histories make it almost child's play to know exactly how much each of those 4 p.m. max bids probably are, based on area and rating. But the fact remains that there is at least one person out there with the desire, money and blind oblivion to attempt to buy up every single piece of land released.

I'll say it one more time.

Every. Single. Piece. Of. Land. Released.

They're not making low bids, and expecting to win maybe a small fraction of them. They are bidding at prices that are only just below current in-game prices, so that they will win a majority of them. Possibly all of them.

And I saw a post just a couple of days ago in the classifieds where this person advertised lower prices on some older land, because they needed to release the tier in order to claim new land they'd won at auction.

What mentality says it is a good idea to keep bidding on land if you know your tier will not support it?

I firmly believe that with better newbie education on how land sales work, and with the strong sense of community most of us have, the business model outlined above will be doomed without any need for direct action or intervention from anyone. I know there's a dotcom bubble analogy in here somewhere, I just can't think of it right now...

I will be scheduling Land Ownership 101 classes for Thursday and Friday mornings, and Saturday afternoon in order to make a major push on this education process. Jamie Otis of TLC is also running frequent classes on this subject, and I believe some of the other Mentor and Instructor events touch on the issue as well.

Please do all you can to encourage people to attend these free events before they spend any money at all on land.

DOOMED, I SAY! DOOOOOMED!

by doomed, i hope you mean the future of anyone who you accuse of trying to prop land prices if your observations are correct, then land prices should be on thier way down.
but then again, maybe it's just snow land they are ridding themselves off of because. (which i now sell cheap!!!)

i don't believe this bidders actions demonstrate a desire to win every single auction. it represents their desire to win every single auction in which the land is going lower than a predetermined amount. this amount is based on their desired margin. when this player starts winning every single auction, that is an indication that land prices are dropping.

Personal attacks aside, a lot of good suggestions have come out of this thread.

Two things to consider from the information gleaned here.

Maniuplation of the land price market by the winning individuals in the auctions; and since land does sell and is one of the most coffer-fillers in SL -- this can and will lead to manipulation of the Linden $'s at GOM.

Those who sell land, gain the most Linden's in their pockets will also control the price of Linden's on the open market. According to the auction figures posted, that means that approximately four individuals control the cost of Linden's at the moment. Flood the market with Linden's when your land is heavy and for sale; withhold your selling of Linden's when your competitor's land is for sale. It could happen. Right now, it could be that as one land seller unloads their Linden's on GOM, it's scooped up by a newbie and paid to another land reseller.

Land is an asset and is needed in SL for most businesses -- be it a club, a mall, a restaurant or a whore house. Large amounts of land is needed simply for the lag factor of AV's, textures and prims. Like many have posted -- those extra meters are needed to keep the neighbors away. But it's true - listen to how many individuals have moved because of a "club in my sim, a mall causing lag..." Everyone wants a lag-free SL experience, especially on their land.

Two questions come to mind:

How many newbies have left because of the initial outlay of money to start a business in SL?

How many newbies have left SL because they can't find decent land at a decent price in a lag-free sim?

While I am fully aware that there are others out there that will easily pay $3KUSD for an account in another game with a high level rating -- they get certain benefits from those high ratings -- here in SL, even if you initially put in $600USD in land -- there is no guarantee of a lag-free experience; there is no guarantee or "support" for your business. In another game it's "fun" to slay the dragon; in SL it's "werk" to get your business off the ground.

SL has also seen the division of players within the game. The hobbiests, the creators, the scripters, and the social players.

Why not sims broken into categories of "business" and "residential" -- where only stores, malls, massage parlours can operate? Business sims would have much larger parcels of land available and zoned (shriek!) as business land - less prims available for heavy creative building. Living sims would have parcels of land in the 1024 range with nice boundaries of Linden land spread out through it so that the neighbor's castle isn't blocking your hobbit home build view of the lake.

Think of the possibility of "growth" if business people actually worked together on a sim, each of them having the same goal of creating a economic environment? Sometimes, people need thrown together to learn to work together instead of being thrown at each other in a competitive environment only to fight not only each other but also the environmental factors of their neighbors complaints.

Nice ideas, but theres a rub... who polices what is business and what is residential.. because you just KNOW some spunkmonkeys will game the system - especially if there are perceived perks for doing things bass-ackwards..

Hmmm if I get a residential plot with more prims.... I make my 'home business' and sell everything out of my giant cube house!...

Hmm.. I residential zones may have less lag (because of no clubs) -- so I'll make my HUGE LIGHTED HOUSE and just have 'House Parties!' --- I can see the events calander spammed with weekend bar-b-ques, hosted by DJ de jour... and of course take advantage of our scantily clad 'Jacuzzi and massage experts!'

you know it will happen - the only variable is how many days

So policing.. you know if you say 'Lindens will police it!' take a look around, Lindens are worse than land in the sparce resource department.. there's hardly enough to go around to solve all the current problems.

Apart from that.. nice idea -- I'd suggest no difference between a business / residential as far as resources go - the less of a perceived advantage, the less chance of it being gamed.. the advantage is simply you can 'live' if you choose to, in an area devoid of clubs/shops/casinos.... which is a worthwhile thing.

Siggy.

So that still leaves them open to the possibility that they will win every single auction, doesn't it! If land prices steadily and slowly fall during the time it takes to roll out, say, 80 more Sims - then every single piece of that new land will have gone through their hands before hitting the player base.

And they'll be losing money hand over fist, not to mention the horrendous tier fees that would entail.

I think you've proven my theory that the tactic is DOOMED!

Excellent thoughts keep em coming folks!!

Cat

Ditto. Sign me up!



Lisse, Doomed if prices steadily fall, surely, but I recall Philip Linden's thoughts at the town hall meeting recently......

Of course we all know whom you are refering to again, right?

Thank you for making it so clear why you have a problem with me.

I will quote one statement again:



Mmmm, yes. THIS is your problem, Lisse. My margin is lower than that of other realtors before me, including you. When I entered land game, I found your land for sale and set my own land next to it for sale at lower price. Mine was moving, yours not. At auctions I overbid you. In world I underbid you. Before I started trade land, people had margin of 50% and more. You were one of them.

I destroyed this paradise of little competition and high margins for people like you.

My strategy is low margin, high volume. This mean I have a lot of work, spending 8-12 hours a day buying land and preparing it for sale, researching current prices and constantly adjusting price to current market situation. This is why I can overbid you at auction and underbid you in world: because I don't try to make my $ and pay my tier fee with a few lazy parcel but by moving hundreds of parcel at low margin week after week after week.

But instead of putting in more effort to compete with me in fair manner by cutting your margins you resort to slander and spreading conspiracy theories. Do you still hope to increase your market share this way? Or is it pure bitterness that drive you, envy that it is not you who is doing the big business now? If you can't be #1 land baron, then at least land rules must be changed to ruin business of the other land barons, right?



Given your record, I would call this abuse of the mentoring system.

Well I'm tired enough to not have the sense to keep from getting involved in this so here we go. Things you should know: I very much disagree with people making their living (or part of their living) from being land Dealers. Don't bother to argue. It's just my personal opinion and no length of posting and no argument is going to change my opinion. For the same reason, I'm not going to sit here and try to spill out a lecture as to why I believe land dealers shouldn't be allowed to do what they do. It's a matter of opinion. Period. However, it's my belief that somewhere there lies a compromise. First, there needs to be an understanding that the players were never guaranteed that they would be able to get land straight from the source and that the land dealers were never guaranteed that they would be able to control the market and profit in this way ad infinitum.

Being that its the wee hours of the morning I'm definitely only using half my arse on this one but I wanted to see what ppl thought of this: what if instead of laying down a blanket time restriction on resell for every single piece of land auctioned, you could resell land immediately if you were registered as an "autorized reseller" or something. However, in exchange for registering, certain retrictions are applied to you regarding some or all of the auctions. For instance, some auctions of smaller plots could be restricted to non resellers. Or even if the initial bid on a piece of land is by a non reseller, resellers cannot bid on that auction. Then, anyone who is not registerd as a reseller cannot sell land they win from auction for X amount of time.

Of course for something like this to happen, LL needs to step up and put more smaller plots of land in the auction process to draw in more of the average and newer users.

Anyway, this prolly has the integrity of swiss cheese but I was hoping to get ppl thinking in a somewhat new direction.

-Meiyo