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Bring Back Prokofy Neva

Eggy Lippmann
Wiktator
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 7,939
11-17-2005 10:44
If I were Jeska or Jesse and came in here this morning I'd laugh my ass off and join in on the fun! Seriously.
Sebastian Skye
Second Life Resident
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 89
11-17-2005 10:58
From: Cocoanut Koala
Thank you so much for that last little comment there, April. I did not "out" him, I made a mistake, because I knew his avatar name was NOT listed in the article, and I was trying to identify him. I corrected that mistake. (I also referred to Prok in the male gender only, in that post.)

I generally refer to people as the gender they wish to be referred to. It's only considerate. Where I make a mistake (and we all have a tendency to slip and do that, once a true gender is learned), I correct it.

So don't talk to me about any of this "outing" nonsense.

And those who refuse to respect Prok's desires as to gender, you will notice, are the very people who hate him. They are doing it to be mean and nasty, just as they are mean and nasty to ANYONE they don't like, in whatever way they can manage to be, regardless of what that person has said or brought up for discussion.

It's inconsiderate not to accept a person as the gender they role-play consistently and wish to be identified with, in game, just as it is inconsiderate not to do so in real life. If someone irl is consistently a drag queen and wants to be considered and treated female, then by damn, that's exactly what I'm going to do.

coco


Oh I just went back to that thread and I could have sworn I saw a name. I must be hallucinating.

I personally don't see the big thing with the pronouns. Some people here I thought were male turned out to be female and I couldn't tell because of the name and vice versa. But I don't think it's a big deal.

I have been male for a few hours but if someone were to refer to me as her, I would still know I was male.

The irony is that some people would think it was rude to keep calling Prok a he when when know she's a female. Does it change how people think of Prok? Not one bit. Does it affect how Prok feels about Prok, maybe, but gosh, why make us all pronoun crazy when we don't have to be.
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The avatar formerly known as April Firefly
Sebastian Skye
Second Life Resident
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 89
11-17-2005 11:01
From: Cocoanut Koala
To trivialize and bury real discussion.

coco


If you really think that's the purpose of those threads, then I wouldn't post in them. But that's just me.

Edited:

Wow did that sound harsh? Maybe there is something to this male avatar thing.
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Dianne Mechanique
Back from the Dead
Join date: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,648
11-17-2005 11:10
From: Cubey Terra
The individual in question showed up at an SL conference, stood up in front of the panel, audience, and cameras, and annouced that she was Prokofy Neva. It's hard to avoid assigning one pronoun or the other in English, so the appropriate one seems obvious.

Avatars may have genders, and RL genders may be secret. In this case there's no secret by her own choice. Prokofy is not male.

SL is not a roleplaying game. Your avatar is not a fictional other person. It's you, represented in-world. One can respect anonymity, but after announcing your identity to SLers, one can hardly expect to then make it secret again.
That's fair.

But to mention it overf and over again in every post, where its not an issue, not relevant to the material etc. is just plain rude and has no purpose than I can see other than the obvious discomfort it causes the other person.

It is easy enough to avoid gender pronouns all together in most cases. The heavy sprinkling of "her" and "she" throughout some peoples posts about Prok is unecessary in most cases, and (to me) indicative of ulterior motives.

I dont want to get too nuts about it, but I willl not let this point go.

What has been done in that regard *is* a troll, and *is* just plain mean.
I am sure I am guilty of similar offenses, in fact I know I am, but it should not be done all the same.

The poster is (perhaps unconciously even), trolling for a response somethign like "..What? proks a girl?" just so that they can go on at length about it as if it actually means something. Let me tell you, it doesn't. :)

How am I to feel as a female, thinking that somehow it makes some big difference to the reception of my ideas because of that? What century are we living in anyway? Sheesh!

Either it doesn't matter and its his business and we should all shut up about it, or its does matter, and the argument is that knowing someone is female is somehow crucial to understanding their ideas. I dont see how it can be both ways.
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
11-17-2005 11:13
From: Cocoanut Koala
Thank you so much for that last little comment there, April. I did not "out" him, I made a mistake, because I knew his avatar name was NOT listed in the article, and I was trying to identify him. I corrected that mistake. (I also referred to Prok in the male gender only, in that post.)

I generally refer to people as the gender they wish to be referred to. It's only considerate. Where I make a mistake (and we all have a tendency to slip and do that, once a true gender is learned), I correct it.

So don't talk to me about any of this "outing" nonsense.

And those who refuse to respect Prok's desires as to gender, you will notice, are the very people who hate him. They are doing it to be mean and nasty, just as they are mean and nasty to ANYONE they don't like, in whatever way they can manage to be, regardless of what that person has said or brought up for discussion.

It's inconsiderate not to accept a person as the gender they role-play consistently and wish to be identified with, in game, just as it is inconsiderate not to do so in real life. If someone irl is consistently a drag queen and wants to be considered and treated female, then by damn, that's exactly what I'm going to do.

coco



You outted her. Plain and simple. Yet Prok in her blog calls Nolan "murderous" for outting her sex and nothing else, but of course, if you do it, it's just a mistake.

Bring back Prok, she'd last 1 day here. Then we'd never have to see the likes of her again.
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Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
11-17-2005 11:14
From: Cocoanut Koala
To trivialize and bury real discussion.

coco


Something you do every time you post. Hypocrite.

As to the "topic", I predicted it over two months ago and while I find the overt hand-wringing over 'fairness' both transparent and laughable (considering the ones doing it), I am perfectly content in the absolute certainty that, should Linden Labs be stupid enough to let that pitiful psycho back into the forums, she will manage to get herself permanently banned inside of six months.

I'd like to say I think LL isn't that stupid, but let's face it, they've done some pretty stupid things lately.

(shrug)
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Sebastian Skye
Second Life Resident
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 89
11-17-2005 11:15
From: Dianne Mechanique
That's fair.

But to mention it overf and over again in every post, where its not an issue, not relevant to the material etc. is just plain rude and has no purpose than I can see other than the obvious discomfort it causes the other person.

It is easy enough to avoid gender pronouns all together in most cases. The heavy sprinkling of "her" and "she" throughout some peoples posts about Prok is unecessary in most cases, and (to me) indicative of ulterior motives.

I dont want to get too nuts about it, but I willl not let this point go.

What has been done in that regard *is* a troll, and *is* just plain mean.
I am sure I am guilty of similar offenses, in fact I know I am, but it should not be done all the same.

The poster is (perhaps unconciously even), trolling for a response somethign like "..What? proks a girl?" just so that they can go on at length about it as if it actually means something. Let me tell you, it doesn't. :)

How am I to feel as a female, thinking that somehow it makes some big difference to the reception of my ideas because of that? What century are we living in anyway? Sheesh!

Either it doesn't matter and its his business and we should all shut up about it, or its does matter, and the argument is that knowing someone is female is somehow crucial to understanding their ideas. I dont see how it can be both ways.


Does it really make a difference?
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The avatar formerly known as April Firefly
Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
11-17-2005 11:15
If Prokofy were to return to the forums, would the "ban in the forums = full ban from SL" rule still apply? Or would Prokofy be the exception again?
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Artemis Fate
I'm a big stupid-face.
Join date: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 746
11-17-2005 11:16
So let us say that the only reason to bring Prokofy back is if he's reformed in some way from before to not slander, flame, troll, and attack other residents maliciously over and over across threads. But as we can see from his blog, that's not the case.

So if we bring Prokofy back he'll just get banned again, end of story.
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
11-17-2005 11:17
From: Weedy Herbst
Bring back Prok, she'd last 1 day here. Then we'd never have to see the likes of her again.


Heh. If only LL worked that quickly. :)
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
11-17-2005 11:23
From: Weedy Herbst
You outted her. Plain and simple. Yet Prok in her blog calls Nolan "murderous" for outting her sex and nothing else, but of course, if you do it, it's just a mistake.

Bring back Prok, she'd last 1 day here. Then we'd never have to see the likes of her again.

I mentioned Prok's real life name AFTER it had appeared in the article (and he's wished to have his avatar linked with it, but it wasn't).

I didn't do what Nolan and others did. I referred to Prok as a he - and THOUGHT of him as a he - long after I found out his rl gender. And I continue to do so.

"Outing" someone implies just what it implies irl: That you have purposely made public someone's real life information they don't wish to make public. And that I have never done.

Others, such as Nolan, did try to "out" him, by making public in SL information he himself hadn't made public in SL, didn't wish to have made public, and had not even made it obvious or easy for such information to be made public.

coco
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Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,690
11-17-2005 11:23
From: Chip Midnight
Prok wasn't banned for her ideas. She was banned for slander, personal attacks, excessive trolling, and breaking the forum rules on a daily basis. Bringing her back would be cruel, not just to the rest of the forum community, but to Prok herself, because you know it would be more of the same. She'd just end up banned again, and next time it wouldn't be from just the forums.


My point chip is that some other s do exactly the same thing, and are not banned. Since it is clear that forum reform meant banning prokofy, and others have been allowed to flourish, then prokofy should be brought back. Or more bannings need to happen.
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Alexa Hope
Registered User
Join date: 8 Dec 2004
Posts: 670
11-17-2005 11:24
I support Diane - bring Prokofy back. His posts may be a lot of things but never boring and although I didn't always agree with his views, I enjoyed reading them.

Alexa
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
11-17-2005 11:25
From: Sebastian Skye
If you really think that's the purpose of those threads, then I wouldn't post in them. But that's just me.

Edited:

Wow did that sound harsh? Maybe there is something to this male avatar thing.

I don't post in them, Sebastian - except for one, the "Welcome Back Kotter" one. Because it was hilarious comment on the OTHER such threads. I also also took the opportunity in it to give my opinion of those other such threads.

coco
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Artemis Fate
I'm a big stupid-face.
Join date: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 746
11-17-2005 11:26
From: Jake Reitveld
My point chip is that some other s do exactly the same thing, and are not banned. Since it is clear that forum reform meant banning prokofy, and others have been allowed to flourish, then prokofy should be brought back. Or more bannings need to happen.


I haven't seen anyone troll as bad as Prok as of yet.
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Ko Industries, unique clothes for the unique woman:
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"Be still like a mountain, and flow like a great river" -Lao Tse

"Deus Ex Machina"

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"Stand tall and Shake the heavens" -Xenogears
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
11-17-2005 11:28
From: Aimee Weber
If Prokofy were to return to the forums, would the "ban in the forums = full ban from SL" rule still apply? Or would Prokofy be the exception again?

Prokofy wasn't the "exception again."

The rule didn't exist until after he was banned from the forums. Which you know.

It was instituted in order to throw the scare into the rest of us.

coco
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
11-17-2005 11:38
From: Cocoanut Koala
and had not even made it obvious or easy for such information to be made public.

coco


So SLCC is not public? You are turning black to white again. Prok's gender was well known coco.

Your revisionist words are lost on most people here.
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
11-17-2005 11:40
From: Cocoanut Koala
Prokofy wasn't the "exception again."

The rule didn't exist until after he was banned from the forums. Which you know.

It was instituted in order to throw the scare into the rest of us.

coco


Here we go with revisionism again. The rule was made AS A RESULT, so don't give me the AFTER doodoo.
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
11-17-2005 11:45
From: Cocoanut Koala
I mentioned Prok's real life name AFTER it had appeared in the article (and he's wished to have his avatar linked with it, but it wasn't).

coco


Article is not even out yet. Prok coaches you well.
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Sebastian Skye
Second Life Resident
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 89
11-17-2005 11:47
From: Jake Reitveld
My point chip is that some other s do exactly the same thing, and are not banned. Since it is clear that forum reform meant banning prokofy, and others have been allowed to flourish, then prokofy should be brought back. Or more bannings need to happen.


If you see it, AR it. I don't understand why people would put up with it, if it's that bad.
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
11-17-2005 11:47
From: Cocoanut Koala
Prokofy wasn't the "exception again."

The rule didn't exist until after he was banned from the forums. Which you know.

It was instituted in order to throw the scare into the rest of us.



The point of my post is this... just a little over a week ago Prokofy had three posts removed from Hamlet Linden's blog about my Political Parties Article. Hamlet stated that the rules that govern his blog are the same as the ones for the forums, and Prokofy was in violation multiple times. I managed to see one of the posts before it was removed and yes, it really was far more vicious that the other posts, and even made the obligatory accusation of facism.

So my question is, are you guys simply advocating the return of Prokofy, or are you also asking for a full package of policy changes to accommodate his return?
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Belaya Statosky
Information Retrieval
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 552
11-17-2005 11:48
From: Weedy Herbst
Article is not even out yet. Prok coaches you well.


Actually, it is.
Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
11-17-2005 11:49
From: Belaya Statosky
Actually, it is.



She posted before it was out.
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Margaret Mfume
I.C.
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 2,492
11-17-2005 11:49
Thanks for posting your thoughts, Dianne, enough time has past for an evaluation of the effectiveness of the action to be in order.
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Sebastian Skye
Second Life Resident
Join date: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 89
11-17-2005 11:50
From: Cocoanut Koala
I don't post in them, Sebastian - except for one, the "Welcome Back Kotter" one. Because it was hilarious comment on the OTHER such threads. I also also took the opportunity in it to give my opinion of those other such threads.

coco

But you did post in one. And if anyone else posted in any other one, they are wrong. But because the one you posted in was somehow different, which it wasn't in my eyes, it was okay for you to post but wrong for anyone else?

You can't complain if you contributed to even one.
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