What I been sayin'
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-05-2005 10:35
From: Enabran Templar No, you don't need to know the technical specifics to see when functionality is not up to snuff. You do, however, need much deeper background if you're going to try to point to specific problems and demand solutions. You admit you don't have that and now you're even shaky on whether or not what you said mattered. I think it doesn't, unless you persist in asserting that you know how to prescribe specific solutions. Here was my specific problem: The world is gray and fuzzy and you can't move and stuff gets lost. Here's my specific demand: Fix it, or roll it back. Don't expect us to somehow fix it. And don't put in new stuff without testing it out and making sure it won't break the game. Those are not only my feelings and thoughts, they are the thoughts and feelings of Snakekiss Noir and probably THOUSANDS of people in the game right now. Like it or not. coco |
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Seth Kanahoe
political fugue artist
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,220
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11-05-2005 10:36
From: Jonquille Noir Am I the only one that read the original post, and the post it quoted?
It was not saying, "Hey, we need better performance!"
It was saying, "Hey, stop working on LindeX and work on performance instead."
So no, that's not what Coco, or Snakekiss, were saying. Those are two very different things, as has been pointed out several times. Hyperbole isn't going to change the fact that "we need better performance" and "stop working on LindeX and give us better performance" have essentially the same meaning. Unless there's one of those "SL pitfall/agendas" working here.  |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-05-2005 10:36
From: Kendra Bancroft 'Cos I make Jillian laugh when she's at work. You make me laugh pretty often, too, Kendra. coco |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-05-2005 10:37
From: Kendra Bancroft I believe that in RL, Coco is George Bush. No. Ain't got no dick. coco |
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Dnate Mars
Lost
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,309
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11-05-2005 10:40
From: Cocoanut Koala Here was my specific problem:
The world is gray and fuzzy and you can't move and stuff gets lost.
Here's my specific demand:
Fix it, or roll it back. Don't expect us to somehow fix it. And don't put in new stuff without testing it out and making sure it won't break the game.
Those are not only my feelings and thoughts, they are the thoughts and feelings of Snakekiss Noir and probably THOUSANDS of people in the game right now.
Like it or not.
coco They are fixing it. Why do you think we had 1.7.0.52, 1.7.0.53, 1.7.0.54, 1.7.1.2, and now 1.7.1.3? Each of those releases fixed a little bit more of the problem. There is another release coming on Tuesday. So that will hopefully fix more of it, if not all of it. Everyone knows there is a problem. LL is working to fix the problems. What more do you want from LL right now?
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Visit my website: www.dnatemars.comFrom: Cristiano Midnight This forum is weird.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-05-2005 10:41
From: Logan Bauer But why do feel so strongly they need to STOP coming up with features if you "get the seperate job part", if you understand why they have seperate groups of people working on different things? Hiring QA's is a good step in the direction of STARTing making sure that updates don't break things so badly. Well, they can come UP with them. I mean, stop putting them IN. If putting them in is either going to break stuff or - and I haven't even spoken to this in this thread - make regular building, texture making, etc., out of bounds for normal people - then DON'T PUT THEM IN. And if they break stuff horribly, as they did this time, take them out right away! Don't let it just drag on for weeks. The reason I know this can be done is it can be done in other games. I've never seen any new update be such a disaster, for such a long time, in any other game, and get nothing back in the forums for my concerns besides, "you don't understand these things." People may not understand these things, but they don't like them, and at a certain point, they leave for games that DO work, no matter how much they like SL. Having said all that, I personally am settled down for the ride, building slowly, and biding my time. I'm not pulling any tier. I AM concerned though, and I'm asking questions about it on the forums, which is, I think, my right, as a paying customer of the game. JUST LIKE ALL OF YOU. So there's no excuse to be snotty to me for asking about it and discussing it. coco |
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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11-05-2005 10:41
From: Cocoanut Koala No. Ain't got no dick.
coco When Fitz completes his investigation into Plamegate, Bush won't have a Dick either. |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-05-2005 10:43
From: Enabran Templar Because Cocoanut is now stuck on the tightrope between acknowledging she made a silly remark earlier and defending all the heel-digging she has done since. It's a real quandary, it is. I did not make any damn silly remark! And I'm not doing all the heel-digging. I'm just saying, when people get their jollies by condenscending to people and being snotty to people, they just show their own appalling and pathetic ignorance. Not to mention bad manners. coco |
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Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,730
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11-05-2005 10:43
wow this thread got weird
in a nutshell, cocoa, what most people are saying is this:
1. yes, LL's development and QA policies need some rethinking given the complexity of this system
BUT
2. software product development is not a zero-sum game: i.e. doing less work in area A won't necessarily make area B better
In the case of nintendo, the people making the games (if they weren't all 3rd party companies... I don't know about who makes nintendo games) would not be the same as those working on the game system itself. To pull back from creating good games while you are trying to fix a broken game system would only give a game company TWO major problems instead of just one (a buggy system AND bad games). (although my guess is that nintendo probably doesn't make the games, it's other companies so this isn't an issue)
3. software development does not scale linearly -- i.e. throwing more people at a problem does not always make it better/faster. In fact, quite often it does the opposite. (I don't think that was said earlier in this thread, but I'll toss it in)
p.s. cocoa, telling everyone your credentials or your IQ won't get you anywhere -- not on an anonymous forum. You just add fuel to the fire. Just write and let your words and thoughts speak for themselves.
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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11-05-2005 10:45
From: Cocoanut Koala I AM qualified to hold strong opinions.
My strong opinion is the game isn't working right, and they need to STOP coming up with neat new features and START making sure their updates don't break things so badly, worse than in any other game I've ever been in. I believe that is what Snakekiss was saying as well.
I don't need any credit hours in advanced OpenGL development - whatever that is - to know that, and neither do all the other players walking out the door over it.
coco You are 100% correct that they need to focus all of their efforts on stabilising the platform. My point in my long, detailed posts to you is that it is not valid to hold of Lindex as a shining example of what they shouldn't be doing. Also, a challenge that they face is the balance between needed improvements (sorry, I won't give back multi-item selection since we have asked for it since freaking beta) and keeping the platform stable. They have lost that balancing act so far, but I am hopeful they will get it right. I think what you may be seeing is the entire codebase is so convoluted and beholden to maintaining backward compatibility that it becomes nearly impossible to upgrade without affecting something. I think the architechture has not scaled well with the rest of Second Life's growth, and we are seeing the painful results of that. Unfortunately, they can't just not improve anything or add anything to SL, that would stagnate it and cause just as many people to leave in time. The priority is stability, but they also need to continue to move forward - they just have to learn how to do so without screwing up the grid in the process. I am confident that they will get it right ultimately - they can't afford not to. Will we ever see an upgrade with zero problems? Nope, that is unrealistic. However, there is a lot more they can do to ensure they are not showstopping problems like we have now (although my experience in 1.7 overall hasn't been that bad).
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Cristiano ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more. 
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-05-2005 10:46
From: Enabran Templar And yet you need hubby's permission to spend an extra ten bucks a month on premium? Why not just promise to type an extra 2.5 words each month? No, I don't need his permission. We have been married a long time, and we don't spend money on things that are frills without discussing them, and making compromises, and convincing the other that the expenditure is justified, for entertainment reasons or whatever. I got rid of one of my TSO accounts, and convinced him that it was okay that way. It's a partnership, Enabran. coco |
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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11-05-2005 10:47
From: Cocoanut Koala Yes, which is why I said that bit about them hiring more quality control, and how that would help, was the most useful thing to me in this thread. You continue not to get it. It's not about hiring. It's about policy and decision making.
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From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-05-2005 10:47
From: Kendra Bancroft Actually, you don't know that. But I will clue you in on the fact that I'm a well published writer, photographer and nationally televised actress. Shhhhhhhhh don't tell anyone. I know that about you already, Kendra. But you'll notice I don't go about the forums insulting you gratuitiously and treating you like an idiot and making fun of you. But then, I don't go about the forums treating ANYONE that way, regardless of their skills or accomplishments, or lack of them. coco |
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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11-05-2005 10:49
From: Cocoanut Koala I got rid of one of my TSO accounts, and convinced him that it was okay that way. What a shame. All you had to do was type an extra two and a half words. Ah well.
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From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.
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Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,730
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11-05-2005 10:49
lol cocoa, stop taking the bait cris -- yeah I haven't been slaughted by 1.7 the way some friends have that said, I've put all real building on hold until middle of next week  and i hate teleporting anywhere because odds have been that time dilation is hovering around two percent here's hoping that this next sub-release fixes this all! (DOWNS BEER) |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-05-2005 10:49
From: Dnate Mars They are fixing it. Why do you think we had 1.7.0.52, 1.7.0.53, 1.7.0.54, 1.7.1.2, and now 1.7.1.3? Each of those releases fixed a little bit more of the problem. There is another release coming on Tuesday. So that will hopefully fix more of it, if not all of it. Everyone knows there is a problem. LL is working to fix the problems. What more do you want from LL right now? I hope so, Dnate, and more than that, I trust so. I'm keeping my money where my trust is. coco |
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Logan Bauer
Inept Adept
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,237
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11-05-2005 10:50
From: Cocoanut Koala
So there's no excuse to be snotty to me for asking about it and discussing it.
coco
I've gone to great lengths to try not to be "snotty" about it. I've been trying recently for the sake of my own brain to NOT immediately laugh at or argue with you or blaze or people who like to run in and say, "Panic, panic, panic!" - because it just induces more arguement and ego-battling. The attitude that "its your right as a paying customer" is what I take objection to; can you picture Jesus walking into a store and vehemently demanding a refund because he just bought a shirt that he found was poorly made? Being level headed, humble and gracious always wins out over being alarmist and argumentative in my book. |
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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11-05-2005 10:50
From: Cocoanut Koala I know that about you already, Kendra.
But you'll notice I don't go about the forums insulting you gratuitiously and treating you like an idiot and making fun of you.
But then, I don't go about the forums treating ANYONE that way, regardless of their skills or accomplishments, or lack of them.
coco It's not gratuitous at all. |
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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11-05-2005 10:54
From: Forseti Svarog p.s. cocoa, telling everyone your credentials or your IQ won't get you anywhere -- not on an anonymous forum. You just add fuel to the fire. Just write and let your words and thoughts speak for themselves. Indeed. On Friday I had an opportunity to chat for several hours with one of the most knowledgeable experts in my field. It was an amazing experience and I came away knowing a whole lot more. Did she need to explain to me that the day rate my company was paying her was what I make in a single month? Did she need to explain to me the specifics of her PhD? No, none of that was mentioned, and I found out about it later. The point was that she didn't need to. She spoke with such authority, backed her shit up so completely with facts, experience and examples, that it was obvious that she had a dramatically complete background and education. I'm very wary of people who need to explicitly declare their honesty or qualifications. Your qualifications should inform your ability to make your argument, not be its sole support. On an unrelated note... I am so becoming a consultant once I'm seasoned enough. 
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From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-05-2005 10:59
From: Forseti Svarog
p.s. cocoa, telling everyone your credentials or your IQ won't get you anywhere -- not on an anonymous forum. You just add fuel to the fire. Just write and let your words and thoughts speak for themselves.
Well, I generally don't, Forseti. As I said, I'm pretty modest. But when you try to discuss something and get treated like this - and it goes on for 8 months! - there comes a time. Plus, I had a friend last night who thought I should say something like this. The point is not my credentials, though. The point is you don't know WHO you are talking to this way, so you'd better be polite to save yourself from looking like an idiot. Even more important, there is no sense in talking this snotty to ANYONE here, or treating ANYONE like they are stupid, cause no one even able to play SL for any period of time can possibly be stupid. Treating people like that just runs them off the forums and off the game. Also, it's inhumane. Also, in this case, taking on airs about the way I phrase something, and putting me down and treating me like an idiot for my informal speech, and patting themselves on the back about their cleverness with it - well, as I have pointed out, that is just goes beyond stupid and mean-spirited into totally pitiful. That's why I gave my credentials, and why I have given some in the past, and the only reason I ever give any. It's self-defense, and to say - stop doing this to people; you don't know who you are doing it to, and you shouldn't do it to anybody anyway. The guy I was talking about in the game last night has known me for 3 years and never knew ANY of it, beyond my basic profession. coco |
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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11-05-2005 11:00
Bah, forget it.
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Cristiano ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.
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Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,730
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11-05-2005 11:01
From: Enabran Templar On an unrelated note... I am so becoming a consultant once I'm seasoned enough. [total tangent] it can be fun, although the travel can get really old but talk to enough mckinsey, BCG, bain, etc etc folks and what you'll primarily hear is "I'm doing this until I can figure out what I really want to do" Not to say that some people don't love it, especially those in specialty areas. plus freelancing, if you've got steady enough inbound work, can offer really nice freedom [/total tangent] |
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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11-05-2005 11:01
From: Cocoanut Koala The point is you don't know WHO you are talking to this way, so you'd better be polite to save yourself from looking like an idiot. Hahahaha. "Do you know who you're talking to?!" All too well, my dear. You're the only one who needs saving, here.
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From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-05-2005 11:02
From: Cristiano Midnight You are 100% correct that they need to focus all of their efforts on stabilising the platform. My point in my long, detailed posts to you is that it is not valid to hold of Lindex as a shining example of what they shouldn't be doing. Also, a challenge that they face is the balance between needed improvements (sorry, I won't give back multi-item selection since we have asked for it since freaking beta) and keeping the platform stable. They have lost that balancing act so far, but I am hopeful they will get it right. I think what you may be seeing is the entire codebase is so convoluted and beholden to maintaining backward compatibility that it becomes nearly impossible to upgrade without affecting something.
I think the architechture has not scaled well with the rest of Second Life's growth, and we are seeing the painful results of that. Unfortunately, they can't just not improve anything or add anything to SL, that would stagnate it and cause just as many people to leave in time. The priority is stability, but they also need to continue to move forward - they just have to learn how to do so without screwing up the grid in the process. I am confident that they will get it right ultimately - they can't afford not to. Will we ever see an upgrade with zero problems? Nope, that is unrealistic. However, there is a lot more they can do to ensure they are not showstopping problems like we have now (although my experience in 1.7 overall hasn't been that bad). Now THIS - this is the sort of respectful, helpful, thoughtful and thought-provoking kind of discussion that I expect to have in these forums. coco |
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Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
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11-05-2005 11:02
From: Cocoanut Koala a) I didn't UNDERSTAND what Eboni said. I don't even know what "SL client" means, much less "SL client" vs "webcode."  But I read it three times, and I'm pretty sure that she wasn't in agreement with me or Snakekiss. b) I'm not upset. I just posted elsewhere about how I am continuing just to build, albeit at 30% slower rates, and wait it out. I don't have that much money at stake. The only real problem for me is I don't have the patience to texture shop. c) The reason I posted the Snakekiss excerpt, Forseti, is I keep asking questions about what to expect in the future on these forums, and get answers I can only partially understand, and that don't sound hopeful. Such as those from Flipper. Snakekiss put it what I've been trying to say VERY straightforwardly and succinctly, and doubtless represents a huge portion of the player base in her statement. That's why it bears repeating. I'm worried. Smoke and mirrors ain't gonna change that. Responses to my thread here that I ALSO don't understand aren't going to change it either. People keep trying to get me to see that these changes are good, but I just can't see it that way. I see it like Snakekiss does. I flail around on here for some hope, some answers, and just keep getting told that I don't understand technology. I hope they really do intend to fix this, and it's not really just a matter of us finally catching on that we can't use our old textures, scripts, builds, etc. (And that's to say nothing about the crashing, loss of inventory, inability to log on, and other problems players are having.) coco P.S. Read it a fourth time. Maybe Eboni was agreeing with Snakekiss! haha, shows you how much I understand this stuff. I too may not understand these "technology" issues or answers. I do however understand that I am paying LL in affect to market my product on their platform. A platform that is currently "wack" I don't give a damn what the excuses are because to me that's all they are is excuses. Money talks, customers walk when any platform that any person pays for takes a nose dive which this platform apparently has since 1.7. Don't give me excuses find the solutions, hire more help, fix the problems. Do what ever you have to do to retain your customer base for your product. I have been with this company since beta I know their problems but I do not make excuses for them any more than I would my phone company when my phone lines are consistantly down. Mar |
