sincere question about tipping in clubs

I still fail to see why it is a given that it's the audience's responsibility to do the split, and not a deal between the performer, staff and venue, splitting from one shared tip jar. If there is an imbalance in how the money is distributed between the involved parties (which I hear from the venues that there *is*), it seems much more obvious to me that those parties hash it out, rather than trying to ask the audience to do it for them.
Now, whether the audience pays *enough* for events is an entirely different question, which probably deserves its own thread, to discuss how the micro-payment economy works for events, and how many venues SL can sustain before it gets spread too thin.
(As a random, spur-of-the-moment thought, it occurs to me that venues seem like a prime candidate for external grids once the technology is ready; turned on when somebody needs the stage, not paying tier to LL when not needed).

When I worked as a Cigar Girl, two of the most memorable tips I got was an awesome new outfit from a very well-known designer on SL. The other was a set of vintage pearls with two different types of matching earrings. (This person had heard me mention I loved pearls).

I LOVED getting those! So gift certificates or something you create would be MOST appreciated!

everyone. But then I work in live events booking live artist and know what it cost to book great live performers for any given venue. They never make that booking fee back in tips at a event. As well live artist are going up in fees month to month. I of course tip the venue and live artist the same amount which is more then I tip the staff at a given venue. If no staff is at a live performance then I put all of what I would tip each staff member in the venue jar, and the same amount to a given artist performing. If we do not in the near future venues will have to begin to charge a cover charge in order to just stay alive and book live artist for our entertainment. Besides I always too consider the gas I save by not having to drive to a live performance plus tickets in rl

This could also apply to the 10,000 makers of skirts. Why do people pay for skirts when there are free skirts available? The original SLers said that no one would pay this Linden Lab 'land tax, what we know of now as Tier.

It just takes a handful of venue owners to start making the change from giving away entertainment to getting their fare share of Lindens so their bottom line is positively impacted. Clubs were never a money pit until Linden Lab stopped paying them for the traffic they generated. A new business model was never established after that. Robin Linden promised some 'plan' but that never happened.

So it is up to venue owners - and the people that benefit from these venues (Live Performers and patrons) to endorse flat cover charges for venues. There was a free box office scripted device available for this purpose. This should be updated and re-distributed.

Venues play a very important role here. The facts are:
-The number one place noobs go to after leaving Help Island is a club.
-The number one employer in Second Life is nightclubs.
-The sole supporter of the Live music scene is venue owners.

Most do not expect the thousands of designers, scripters and musicians to give away everything for free. No one is expecting free tier from Linden Lab - so why catch an attitude when a club charges a modest cover charge? Live Musicians should rally behind this - since most of this money goes into their pockets. I have yet to see any artist endorse venue cover charges - yet they expect to get their performance fees paid no matter what. There has to be changes NOW or both industries will suffer more.


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I agree with this. It is completely true. But it is largely funded by club owners.



The vast majority of clubs were still a money pit at that time. However some of the most popular clubs between dwell payments, developer's incentives and Vendor rentals made modest profits.

That was before Classifieds too - when Traffic was the be all and end all of visibility and thus everyone wanted mall stores at these places.

The Edge looked more like a mall with a club in the middle, and other clubs weren't far behind.

It is, however, a fairly well known and accepted fact that a very small percentage of those skirt makers and other content creators actually make any money.
Declaring yourself the "sole supporter" of something does not automatically grant your business some special status that others should bow down to and make profitable.
It would be interesting to know if there actually *are* venues making a profit out there, and if so, whether the number of those correspond to the average percentage of successful businesses in other areas.

Venues that may make money are ones that derive their income from something else, e.g., rentals or escorts. Pure music venues - generally, no way, they would be lucky to get back 10% of the musicians' fees (for those who charge - some musicians refuse to charge and play only for tips).

Some venues have a tip-splitting arrangement, and a few have enough clout to demand that musicians play tips only. But these days, most musicians demand fee plus 100% tips to play if you are seeking their services, not the other way around.

And Tali, you're right - an open grid simulator would make a great venue because there would be no external cost involved other than the stream.

Worship won't be necessary. And profit is never guaranteed. The only status venues need to establish is the one where people like yourself accept that you must pay to play.

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Club goers for the most part have already shown that they do not accept this and this is why clubs either have to allow non-paying people or stay empty. A business can only change the minds of people if there is enough incentive. There is not enough incentive here. If free clubs close and the rest go pay to play then how long do you think it will be before people just create party groups and buy a 2048 for them and their friends to party on?
You have to offer more to these people than the line of "You just gotta accept..." because in fact they don't have to.

People will always find alternative ways to party rather than pay if they don't want to.

Which, as I've tried to make clear, I'm not opposed to.

Though thinking about it, alternately, dedicated venues go, and the musicians find alternate places to hold their concerts, like sandbox concerts or events at stores, or band together to share a sim.
The actual *venue* rarely means much to me when going to a concert. I go to where the musician is.
That would be much like indie bands distributing their own music over the Internet, cutting out the logistics part of the record companies.
I actually think this is more viable for *live music*, but for other kinds of events, the surroundings likely matter more. It's not like you can have an improvised sandbox strip dance. Or, well, you probably *could*, but...

I think clubs would compare unfavorably to content sellers.

For a few reasons-

Many people go into clubs expecting to spend no money.

The start up costs (inside of SL) for a club tend to be higher than those of a store.

The overhead of a club is quite a bit larger than that of an average store.

A club only makes money when there is staff around in 99% of cases. Compared to a store which can make money 24/7/365.

Clubs attract many times the drama of stores.

Yes, but when you consider that most stores are lucky to make their tier back in sales, how many are going to be willing to pay out 5k (the average rate) to a musician to show up and play for people who may or (more likely) may not shop?

Musicians and venues need each other, and both can stand to be more creative.

Creativity vs. social reality.. unfortunately social reality usually wins

Some of the most enjoyable live music events I have been to have not been in traditional clubs. Some examples:

*One member of the role play group I am in regularly hosts live musicians on his home estate. AFAIK the notice only goes out to the group, but since there are in excess of 200 people in the group, these events are always well attended. The host does it as entertainment for his friends and only a tip jar for the musician (which is rarely mentioned) is in evidence.

*A Christmas party at the home of my favorite DJ. The entertainment was another live musician who is quite popular. He and the DJ host are good friends and he gave the entertainment to the host/party as a Christmas gift.

*The owner of a jewelry store on a medieval sim hosts live musicians from time to time. They are held outside in a very whimsical setting and are a lot of fun.

This is where many of the clubs I've been to recently fall short. (Of course I don't go to many clubs so it's a small sampling, but still...)

My first experience with a club a year ago, ALL the staff (owners, DJ, host/ess, cigar girl, barman) made the club a relaxed, fun place by engaging guests in conversation, ESPECIALLY new people to the club. ("Hi, (name), is this your first time here? Well welcome to (club name). - Followed by explanations of where the dance ball was - if one of the host/esses were available, an invitation to dance. If someone said they were new to SL, they were sent a New Residents package and invitations to ask any questions we could help with. The regular patrons jumped into the welcoming also. I can't count the number of times the response from the person was: "Wow!! You all are so friendly! Most clubs I've been to, no one talks to me!"

Now what I find is as soon as my virtual feet appear in a club the greeters say, "Welcome, Czari" and that's it. They go back to chatting with the other hosts/esses, etc. or to one regular group. Nothing is done to engender that truly "welcome" feeling.

My now partner was a host at a club we both worked at a year ago. His duties were to post the events, act as security, greet new arrivals, say bye when people left, ask if anyone wanted a group tag to IM him (done about once an hour and NEVER, NEVER blind invitations!)

/side rant - one of the things that will turn me off of EVER returning to a club is being sent a blind invitation to their VIP group as soon as I set foot in the door.

/rant off

Anyway....he kept chat banter going and made sure to ask any unescorted ladies if they would like to dance, with accompanying witty flirting and engaged in chat in IM. It got to the point some women would regularly come to the club and just say "Storm, dance."

He worked 3 shifts/week. His pay was the ability to put a skybox on the property rent-free - no other pay. And in the many, many months he worked there...he was never tipped. And I don't believe the other hosts/esses were either. Right before the club closed, something was said to the owner and he said, "Oh...I guess I should mention to tip the host/esses as well."


/slaps palm to forehead

I think that's an excellent idea! The club I used to work at (and that everyone on this forum is probably getting ~really~ tired of hearing about now...but it's my only "employee-side" club experience) did just that. The owner paid the cigar girls and barmen a very good wage and the morale in that club was excellent. Most of the employees came there on their nights off because they enjoyed being there so much. (As I mentioned in a previous post, hosts & hostesses did not receive L pay, but could park a home in the sky over the club.)

People did not accept paying tier in the dark ages of Second Life - they proved that by setting the Governor's Mansion on fire and protesting for weeks. But the business could not stay free to the masses if it were to develop into what it is today. The same applies to venues. It may be a somewhat difficult transition. But it is a transition that must come to pass.

Venues mostly cater to new players trying to establish a place and relationships in Second Life. Those that figure out how to buy 2048M and develop venues are not the usual demographic of a venue - so that is not an issue.

If too many people believed in just standing in a sandbox and using the voice client to hold concerts - then Second Life would be a barren wasteland - and out of business by year-end. The Content Providers, tier payers and Scripters add depth to our world here and provide Linden Lab with enough research and develop funds to keep the lights on. To show no support for what Venue Owners bring you and live musicians daily is short-sighted.

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Your analogy like a lot of analogies is flawed. Just because you want it to be so does not make it so. So far there is no evidence to suggest that clubs are changing people minds on this, quite to the contrary actually, people are visiting and paying clubs less and less. There have even been a number of other threads here saying the same thing as you well know. (not paying DJ's, not tipping dancers, bots pretending to be customers)

If there is going to be a change then the catalyst for that change has not arrived yet and some might say it never will.
My opinion is that clubs will have to find another thing that people cannot easily find elsewhere that they are willing to pay for to participate in.
There will always be enough free places you can go to party with friends and a there be a good music stream, heck I provide one myself so how are you going to compete with that? You don't need much to have a good party and great time really.

Absolutely NOT true. Of course new players are going to clubs. There is a major difference between a venue and a house party. There may not be a huge amount of people in the venue all at the same time - but there is a steady 24 hour flow of people moving through well run venues. Venue owners provide a virtual experience way above standing in a sandbox.


A music stream is not a live performer or a DJ taking requests with a host helping new players getting acclimated.

Its just the standard attitude in these forums to yell LAGGY CLUB! and start the negative comments. When the reality is clubs provide a service to this virtual landscape - like it or not. I remember when I was noob in 2005 with my wings, box on my arm and VIP tag. The peopel in the club I wandered into gave me a connection to this new place and a reason to keep coming back and learn more. And most noobs will have similar tales.

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I did not say new people are not going to clubs - I am saying numbers are dwindling generally and numbers of paying people are certainly dwindling I am perplexed how you can argue against this.

This is untrue, there are one or two major clubs that have consistent 24 hour numbers that are upwards of one or two people - I know this because I am around when most people are in bed due to my timezone and SL is very very quiet - often I go to the major clubs and either they are empty for the most part or have zombies as described. Only a few exceptional places have more than one or two people consistently.

Dwindling figures are showing people don't care that much. I certainly don't - having requests is nice but not required by the majority to have a good time - the state of clubs and venues prove this.
I don't come to listen to a DJ, I come for the music and the people I am having a good time with.

Even the major places don't have 24 hour DJ's or hosts either.

Just because you are emotionally invested in it does not make you right. The empty places speak for themselves, the people complaining that people are not paying them enough speaks for itself. These are facts that are hard to argue against.

See, now I feel different about the dancers.. They have to put up with BS, they have to keep all those gestures at hand and ready to go.. That takes a certain skill... BUT if I spot a gesture being scrolled.. No tip.. If I see they actually used their brain to think up clever comments.. then I tip more.
I used to dance biggest tip I got was 1oooL. that was nice. (no wasn't for lapdance either ; P ) I am not so great at it and only did it for a month or so... Gets old quick. But have been thinking of doing it again.. need some L$ .... and no time to camp.

Just remember the dancers do not get all of what you tip. (most places) they often are split with the house.

If I go to club where there is a dj, I don't usually tip them.. Unless I know them.. mean, maybe... But there it is. However, I will tip the club if I'm havnig a good time.

Anyone can spin music, it takes special skills to dance, amuse and hold the attention of people.

I was in a club a few days ago and every 5 min there was a beg for tips from the DJ, omg this was so annoying.. I left.

New registrations in Second Life happen every day. I see the membership number increasing - the number of people online increasing (even after camping was no longer rewarded). I see no data proving the opposite of this.

I know because I have 4 clubs and a visitor counter in each - It records all visitors, unique visitors and people under 30 days old. I base what I say on actual DATA I have collected since 2005.

I see no data on your dwindling figures - I only see data on new registrations increasing and my own visitor counter data - all of which prove the opposite of what your saying.



Again, you present no facts and no data. You do not take into account daily registration numbers at all. Serious Venue owners - that launch marketing campaigns, post daily events and hire competent staff do not have the 'empty club syndrome' usually. There is a Darwinist effect that takes place in every industry (survival of the fittest). But even the fittest ones need to have an income to cover expenses at least.

And that is where the cover charge comes in. You can go stand in a sandbox listening to the radio - or - once in a while - you can decide to part with $50L and go to a well run venue with a DJ, Host and performance. To many - it will be worth the 49 cents.

Do you presently make a cover charge though?

Although the number of new registrations is climbing, the number of PMLF businesses and the amount of Supply Linden sales are both falling. In other words, many of those new registrants don't have L$. Attending a venue with a cover charge isn't an option for them, and if that's true, their plywood box with their friends and a radio stream doesn't have to compete.

The issue about "darwinism" is more that although the worse run or smaller clubs might not last long, at any given moment there are guaranteed to be quite a large number available which have only recently started. Plus, of course, breaking the "people" chicken-and-egg problem is difficult for everyone.