Can "rape" occur in SL?

I think that's overstating the case. I didn't see too many posts along those lines, and I think some posts have been misconstrued as blaming the griefer when they meant to suggest that it would be good to avoid situations that make griefing quite likely.

I know I, for one, will never go AFK on a poseball setup that lets someone else move my avatar! Of course, I wouldn't have known about the possibility without the situation having been posted by someone to begin with.

I consider that person to have been griefed in a most tasteless way, and I bet she won't be in that situation again anytime soon - I thank her for the heads up, and we can all live and learn from that experience. It sounded like she was as unaware of what could happen as I would have been.

I MIGHT raise an eyebrow if someone was well aware of the possibilities, went AFK anyway, and then got upset that something happened while she was away. I'd still say she was griefed and the guy should get banned, but there's a point where people can look after themselves a bit more.

Hope that clarifies, and isn't misread as me taking some griefer off the hook for his behavior. I just believe very strongly in people taking as much responsibility for themselves as humanly possible.

Sitting on a sex poseball in no way implies consent with anyone who wanders by.

You are, in my opinion, confusing bad judgement with responsiblity.

Putting yourself in a bad situation that you could of avoided is bad judgement.

But its the offender who is solely responsible for the offense.

if that is what you got out of what i said then you must be an idiot. i'm done with this conversation. it is pointless with you people.

252 posts and we're not any closer to sanity than we were when we started.

Three separate things are being discussed:

RL rape, deplorable of course.

Virtual depictions of rape enacted without consent. I think this is wrong, but I also think it is not the same thing as RL rape. The worst examples of it would be roughly equivalent to RL emotional abuse or sexual harassment. I have no doubt this could be seriously and genuinely damaging to someone. I also have no doubt that it would be very hard to sort out the gray zones.

Virtual depictions of rape roleplayed with consent. If these get banned, I think that's an injustice. Is this or is this not an over-18 grid we're on?

Mixing together these three things guarantees confusion, incomprehension and reactionary replies. Carry on. *sigh*

Insult no. 1.



Confusing RL with SL - no one is abused, raped and killed in SL. Putting people and animals on the same level, forgetting the fact that we slaughter and eat animals. Followed by insult no. 2.



Stating that you'd laugh about someone being harrassed in SL. Consensual roleplay is sick, but unconsensual harrassment is funny? o_O



Ehm... aren't you the one who takes this game so seriously that you confuse SL roleplay with RL rape and murder? Anyway, insult no. 3.



Insult no. 4. Yes, the only sex I get is through SL, because of my RL health condition. I know how pathetic that is. By the way, I mostly play rather gentle D/s scenarios in SL, but if my partner wants it rough - no problem. It's a virtual world and no one can get hurt. Not that it would be any of your business or LL's business what I do in my virtual bedroom.



Insult no. 5. Just summing it up for the forum moderation, hoping they won't punish all discussion participants by closing the thread because of one... ehm... misbehaving resident, to say it in PG terms.

I think anyone is able to judge who is expressing the more offensive behaviour - people who engage in consensual roleplay on mature land without bothering anyone else, or someone who grossly insults other residents.

you give me a probable case with the woman fallign asleep at a party, where she may or may not know the people there, then flip the script because i didnt respond accordingly?

again, if she is safe there, and knows the hosts, then by all means she should expect some level of security in doin so. if she gets drunk and falls asleep where she may know two or three people? she made a foolish choice. i and im sayign this inregards to myself. do not drink heavily, especially where i do not know anyone. and i also do not pick up my drink, when for soem reason i have to put it down, i order a fresh one, or i take it with me.

with all the news reports of women goin missing, beaten, raped, etc;you'd think many would take some responsibility in thier OWN safety. yet those numbers keep growin. and you want to compare that to a virtual setting? that could have been prevented?

It depends on the environment and the circumstances. Sitting naked on a sex poseball, with another free poseball right next to you, in a public and sex-themed sim, is a sign of consent. I'd compare it to laying on the back in the lobby of a swinger club, naked and with wide-spread legs, with an inviting smile on the face.
It is still rude of course to just hop onto the free poseball without a single word, even if easy sex is the whole purpose of the surrounding sim. Personally I'd never do it, but somehow I don't completely fail to understand someone who does.

Sitting naked on a sex poseball (again with a free and inviting poseball next to you) within your home is a different situation. If your house clearly looks like a private home with a closed front door and not like a club, it increases the level of rudeness of the uninvited poseball user. It's enough reason to freeze, eject and ban the person.
Someone unaskedly triggering the hip movement of a polygon figure, using a poseball that was installed by you for exactly this purpose, is in no way rape though. How should the intruder have known what kind of animation the poseball would play? He probably just wanted to take a nap

I flipped nothing - I was pretty sure what your answer would be. I was hoping I was wrong. You answered "It depends" . In my opinion that is the wrong answer.

Again theres a difference between bad judgement and responsibility. In real life the rapist is 100% responsible for what happens.

It is possible for the woman to have made a mistake in judgement that puts her at high risk, Even to chose to be in a stupidly reckless situation - but its still not her fault she was raped.

Never.

Ever.

Its patently Insulting to imply otherwise.



The comparision wasnt what you took it for. You seemed to be blaming the woman on the poseball. I wanted to know if your stigma of blame carried through to a real life example.

I completely disagree. IF someone wants to have cyber/pixel sex with someone they can at least ask if they dont mind. This is exactly the sort of attitude that will ensure rape-play ban goes through.



In which case someone who had been unaware would get up and excuse themself. Rather then emote out a sleep rape scene and send a picture of the act.

Actually, it's a sign of total idiocy.

If the person on the poseball doesn't want sex, then it is Otherwise it's the typical mating invitation in SL.

Certain sims are themed in a way that asking would rather destroy the ambiance. For example a BDSM club, with a row of poseballs on a wall and a sign above reading "Free sl**s for your entertainment". If someone hops on such a poseball... well, people should be aware of the environment and able to understand the house rules. Not to speak of places like Hard Alley... it should be clear to anyone sitting naked on a poseball there what is possibly going to happen.
If I walk through a combat sim, I might be shot at. If I don't like that, I stay out of there.



In this case I agree with you. That's clearly griefing / harrassment when it happens unasked (in your own home, not at Hard Alley), and therefore against the TOS. Always has been, without the need to ban all forms of rape play.

seek Christ! Do it fast.

You said a sex sim - Not a forced sex sim.

A forced sex sim clearly warns you that forced sex occurs and you should leave if your not into that activity. Apples and oranges.

The consent isnt in getting on the poseball - the consent is in agreeing to actively participate in that roleplay environment.

Its still possible to revoke that conent by leaving, or refusing to participate, but goign afk in a place like that you would know what goes on. Much different then just some nook in an adult themed park, for example.

And STILL the person seeking this roleplay with her would be better off getting some responses that seemed she was encouraging roleplay (even if they were acting out the fantasy rather than a traditional "yes"



Actually this thread has brought up a topic that doesnt usually exist in these conversations, that some rape play participants are pretty free with their interpretations of consent.

Thus I see an angle to LL's madness I hadnt before. Perhaps they dont wish to police consent disputes in this area, and thus banning rape play turns all forced sex situations into being actionable.

So I dont know - these debates really make me wish Open Source servers would hurry up and arrive. Then it wouldnt be Linden Labs' problem it would be the server owners.

That'd probably be the best solution for LL.

let me get this straight, if you lay naked in a public area,( and lets make this clear, sara NEVER said if she was in her home or otherwise) and You fall asleep, and wake up with a douchbag on top of you, better yet, leaves pictures of what he did to you, its all his fault?
granted, he could have exercised some self control, however, the person who lays naked in an open area, is yes ASKING for it. in the case of the woman foolish enough to depend on the kindness of strangers because she decided to go on a bender then fall asleep in a strange place, puts herself at risk. in no way did i imply that those who would take advantage of that oppourtunity were fine upstanding citizens. you bear some responsibility.

my "stigma of blame"? im sorry if the concept of common sense is alien to you. you may think as you wish. i did state in my first response, that some situations cannot be helped. but if the situation could have been avoided? give me a break collette, you cannot have that narrow a beam. in the cas eof sara? yes it was her fault. in the case of the woman who falls asleep at a party? again depends on the situation.

and sara, if you are in the habit of leaving your ava out naked on your property, get a security orb.( i know but some things bear repeating.

A bit off topic but... people are seeking him for more than 2000 years now, and he did never show up. I'd say it's quite pointless to keep seeking.

Besides, I'd rather not be associated with that Jesus guy. Please read Matthew 13:41-42, and ask yourself if it's really ok and not somehow offensive when Jesus sends his angels to throw unbelievers (jews and others) into an oven (a furnace), to cause loud "weeping and gnashing of teeth". There was a guy in Germany who did exactly the same thing that Jesus promises to do, and it turned out that no one really liked him.

A not rape-themed but otherwise sex-themed sim is basically like a restaurant. Sitting alone at a table is no clear sign that you allow everyone to grab a free chair and sit down next to you. But it's also no clear sign that you want to stay alone. It would be annoying if someone sits down at your table without asking first. Even questions like "Hey handsome, what are you doing here all alone" would be annoying. But it doesn't break any law. If people behave that rude, there are two options: 1) to stand up and leave, and 2) to call a waiter (sim owner or even LL staff) and complain about the rude person.

A poseball is basically a free seat. Poseballs are meant to sit down, to lay down, to make a handstand, to dance or otherwise rhythmically move your hips. It's only polite and a sign of some basic manners to ask "Is this ball still free" or "Do you mind me sitting here / dancing next to you / jumping onto you", but no law forbids someone to sit down on a ball in a public place.

If someone starts to utter offensive emotes, that's another thing. If that happens unasked and completely against your will, it's clearly harrassment and violates the TOS. Although I wouldn't know if "oooh baby" is really offensive enough to justify an AR, when the situation could be handled with a simple "hey, do you mind, I'm waiting for someone here".

I may think what I wish, but I cant have that narrow a beam - interesting. Which is it? can I think as I wish or can I not?

It is never the victim of crime's fault they were victimized.

It might be that the increased their chances of being victimized through bad judgement. The "Common sense" comes in here. If they had better judgement they likely wouldnt have been a victim.

But it isnt the victims FAULT. The victim isnt responsible for what happened. Becuase it takes the Offender to commit the offense. It is the Offenders FAULT - in no way does increased opportunity to commit and get away with the crime absolve the offender of the entire blame.

If you leave your car keys in your car - you were careless - but if your car is stolen its not your fault, it is the thief's.

If you wander into a bad part of town and you are killed, you were taking a risk, but its not your fault - it is the murderer's.

If you trust someone with easily proven false credentials with your businesses accounts - and he embezzles money, you had poor judgement. It was still the Embezzler's fault the money was stolen.

If you leave your Diet coke in the community fridge at work - and someone drinks it, You knew that people steal pop cans , so you were taking a chance - but its still the person who stole the pop can's fault.

It wasnt Sara's fault what happened to her happened to her - Yes it was a bad idea to lie naked on a poseball that can be changed to be used for sex. It was Bad Judegement to assume that no one would come by. It was definitely a mistake to trust LL not to make her BF log off. But it was the Offenders FAULT. No one forced him to do what he did to Sara, especially not Sara.

And its not the woman at the party's fault either. If she did not consent, then she did not consent. The rapists have minds of their own. They chose to rape her. It is their fault. Not hers.

Agreed for 100%. Just as in RL... if a woman dresses sexy or even walks naked around, that doesn't mean she can be raped.

If a woman (or man) doesn't give consent.. in RL or SL... it is a big NO. No matter what.

Morwen.

glad to see we agree on that point.



with the two incidents in question, yes they are to blame. if you know you are goin to be gone for longer than 10 minutes, in an area we still are unsure of, naked, on a sex gen rug, the yes, she accepts the blame as well as the responsibility for doin so. again, as i see you so convieneantly missed, i never said the guy was a model citizen for doin what he did. and i already stated my case regardign the sleepingwoman at the party.


in these cases: if YOU were aware that these areas are high crime and or are known for such things, then yes you too bear some responsibility for not exercising common sense. no one asks to be attacked or, to use your word, victimised, yet in some cases we put ourselves in just the situation where it happens. if i was faced with two ways to get home, and one was the roundabout way that would take me an extra 10 minutes to take, but was well lit and had lots of foot traffic, or the shortcut down the alley, where a a person was murdered, guess which route i'd take? yes there is no guarantee that i would be just as safe on the well lit path, but my chances of being victimised goes down considerably.



now you are just being silly, if that happens use the soda machine around the corner.



again read my previous posts regardign this.

and we have yet to hear from Sara wheter or not she was in her home, out in "public", or on a sex sim, when this occured.

How exactly did the community make anything clear to the Lindens? No one asked me my opinion. I don't think any of us were required to fill out a form, answer questions, give our opinions.

Exactly, who are the Lindens protecting?

Their own public image, and their legal safety.

Humans have several ways of communication: speech, body language, facial expression. How far does one have to go to give consent? If a person clearly has to say "I want you to take me home and engage in sexual intercourse with me, in the bedroom of my apartment", then there has never been any consensual sex in the history of mankind.

What is spoken out loud, if anything at all, is something like "Would you like to come up for a coffee". After that, body language takes over. In other words, consent to have sex is up to interpretation, to some degree. Of course, one stops as soon as it becomes clear that one misinterpreted the signs. And of course, wearing a sexy dress can't be judged as consent to have sex with the next best person. Not even walking around naked. But where exactly does one draw the line?

If an avatar sits naked on a poseball in a public sim that was built for the purpose of finding sex partners in an easy and uncomplicated way, with another poseball next to her, with a hovering text that leaves no doubts about the purpose of both poseballs, in a virtual world where sex has no negative side effects, her goal couldn't be any clearer. It's certainly more unambiguous than the invitation to join someone for a coffee, followed by slightly leaning over with fluttering eyelashes, which could also mean "I like to drink my coffee in company, but alas there's something wrong with my eyesight".

I do know that humans not only communicate through speech. But the point is many times "other communications" are completely misunderstood... and are seen as a yes, while there is nothing meant that way.

Agian, a mini-skirt or a low neckline are not directly a sign "I want to be taken home by you". Even a wink must not mean that the person wants to end up in your bed.

And even in case there has been some intention to go that direction, but someone changes her/his mind... a NO is NO. Simple as that. If someone gets pushy (man or woman), that person is way out of line.

Morwen.