New Zindra Blog Post

Very good point.

I'm just glad they did address the child avatar situation instead of leaving it lay..At least we know where the lindens stand on it..Where they always have..

I appreciate that Ian, Ty
Anyone capable of reading my past posts would know that I steadfastly stand up for people's freedoms, reguardless of whether I have anything to gain OR lose by voicing it. I also wholeheartedly support child AV's and their rights, and have said so many times in defense of my opinion here.

I said early on that this particular situation is THE ONLY time, after stepping back and asking myself who has more to lose from the potential fringe cases caused by all this, that my opinion had to be that of erring on the side of safety for all involved. I never said I *like* having that stance, or that I thought it was fair to the child AV's. Only that I thought it was fair and justified to consider safety for all before the numbered minorities travel rights to that corner of the grid.
Those that have insisted mine's a hate/intolerance thing have not really read the letter of my words, and in fact might've been tainted by reading/hearing the true hate speech that's erupted from the usual old sources IMO. That kind of blind intolerance is not me, and I only sought to have a respectful discourse on the issue. I've learned a lot about certain people in this forum from that exchange, and especially about how swing-in-the-dark reactionary they can be when upset by barely related issues.

i had never seen a hateful word from you in that thread at all..i never for a moment thought you were part of that group from the bloggers..
all you did was post that bad experience you had and how you felt on the subject..
i have seen you in action in other threads..it is easy to see you are a fair person..
i just wanted to say that..

All fixed now. Whether Jack realizes he's had it completely re-written for him I don't know

Adult Content Wiki Page:

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Adult_content

Adult Content FAQ Page:

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Adult_Content_FAQ

In reply to the direct question, you betcha, I think that I personally think *anyone* portraying themselves as a kid would be very unwise to go to the extreme continent.

As for my intent; go ahead, judge me. I've got years of history on the grid; my intent has shown clearly for years vis a vis my actions. Dig it up, make your best call, post it for all to see. I won't bother to refute; it would simply be more drama.

* * * * *

Ciaran I do hope you are correct, though this issue has repeatedly proven to resurrect itself so regularly that I am dead sure it will be back.

I offer you a gentleman's bet of $L 1 that this whole thing will explode into controversy again with at least one major media citation, the extreme area and child avatars mentioned. Here's to hoping you win that bet; I would certainly prefer to be wrong.

And now, to contribute to the calm, I'm quite out of this thread and the topic entirely.

Jesse - I like you, I really do. The below is not aimed directly at you, but in a general fashion.

Can I please ask that this week's child avatar hate fest not be personalized? I've said my peace about Zindra here on the last go-round, and frankly, I really don't need to be the center of another.

Thanks all, my blood pressure thanks you too.

Well, I guess most kid/teen avatars won't step foot into Zindra at all, at least for the time being. Personally, I took a look already (btw, I didn't even plan that before the big stink was started, so it actually pushed me to go there, lol), so right now I have no reason anymore to go there.

But, as I said a couple of times before in this crazy long discussion, this *might* change in the future - depending on who and what will move to Zindra (or other adult flagged regions). The newest blog post confirms my own expectations, that the really unsuitable stuff for kid/teen avatars won't cover the whole continent but will only be one type of content amongst many others. So I'm very thankful for that clarification, just in case this need ever comes up.

I wonder what he means by having plenty of protected adult land with safe content. It sounds like they are saying only Governor Linden land would be able to have safe content. I can't see it being any other way.

I honestly think a bigger issue is being made of this than the issue warrants. None of your points are invalid, but how likely is any of it to actually happen? I mean, what is the difference between adult-classed land and land classed "mature" under old rules? Allowing child avatars on mature land has never been a real issue before, but probably because a substantial percentage of residential land is in mature regions.

Child avatars are not exactly lining up to get into strip clubs and orgy rooms. They never have before, so why would they now?

As for fears of unscrupulous people posing child avatars around sexual acts or content, snapping screenshots, and distributing them to the media... What exactly has stopped these people from doing that before? Why wait for Zindra to open to do this?

Basically all of the concerns you address are things that have ALWAYS had the potential to happen - but, for whatever reason, have not - at least not to the scale you are predicting.

I don't believe child representations have any reason or business in the commercial areas of Zindra any more than you do; however, I do not feel an outright ban of child avatars from all adult land is justified. To me, it just smacks too much of censorship... Censorship for absolutely no reason other than to appease the delicate sensitivities of the chronically offended, and does absolutely nothing to actually address the concerns you raise.

It means there will be no adult content on Governor Linden land. It does not mean that all non-protected land will automatically be 24-hour porn-fests, or that PG content is not allowed on Zindra. Especially in light of the wording of the new Terms of Service, the likelihood of whole residential neighborhoods moving to Zindra are actually pretty good. Residential lands are usually pretty safe.

If the child avi thing was going to blow up or have any weight in all this, it'd have done it by now.

Probably the nutters running around ready to falsify AR's and so forth will be burnt out pretty quick too by bans on themselves from LL.

I think with this LL announcement it's pretty much over.

I can't remember how many I have IM'd who have turned up at my place and told them no child avi's here, please grow quickly or leave.

Most understand and either leave or grow up, every now and then one gets all p*ssy about it and refuses, thats when the ban hammer comes in.

I know that my BDSM place isn't the only one thats had this "problem" either, which is why it's not unusual to see the no child avi notes and signs at these places.

As a community are we over sensitive? Yes quite possibly, but our interests and child avi's do not go together in any way shape or form. We don't want to be the next media beat up, and child avi's have no need/reason or even right to be at these places.

Having said all that, IMHO there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to be child avi, infact I suspect it would be kinda cool and fun

The sort of thing Mitzi notes here is the same thing Des is worried about. Kiddie avs who show up at a BDSM venue are most likely NOT engaged in child-appropriate roleplay. I'd agree with Mitzi..if I saw a child av hanging around that sort of place, my thought would be "this avatar is looking for sexual ageplay".

I think child avs should be allowed in Zindra. Jack is right...the place will probably wind up looking rather like Mature mainland looks now. Lots of innuendo, not all that much explicit adult content. As a matter of fact, given the failure of LL to keep their promise that adult content would be permitted in private areas, I pretty much expect 90% of the existing mainlanders will either migrate to Zindra or to private estates.

It's one thing if a kid accidentally TPs or drops in. As you stated, most child avatars finding themselves in the wrong place will cooperate and leave quickly without incident. There is always that one bad apple in any given group, and for those who refuse to leave quietly, the ban hammer is perfectly appropriate. The ones who don't want to comply are either there for distasteful reasons or are trying to make some kind of point. Either way, you don't want that type hanging around, regardless of the avatar being worn.

In my time in SL, I have actually had much more problem with adult avatars who feel themselves above the rules than I have ever had with child avatars.

Neither can I, to be completely honest with you. Not when it's evident that 90% of the people I'd run into there would be uncomfortable around me at best and spitefully ARing me at worst. And as for the non-adult content areas being safe - well, maybe, if I TP into a "safe" parcel and don't move more than 2m in any direction. Seems to me it's often difficult to tell whether the questionable content is around until you find yourself already amongst it (and potentially ARable). My idea of "exploration" is walking around and seeing the sights as I come upon them; not walking a few steps, then camming ahead to make sure there's no porn around, then walking a few more steps, rinse, repeat. Screw that. The kooks can keep Zindra.

I would totally agree with you and certainly the people that I know that roleplay in child avatars are sensible individuals and know themselves they do not want to be in the adult areas, because they do play by the rules.

Personally I do not think you will see kid avatars in adult situations on Zindra because they know the rules better than a lot of adult avatars and a lot of them unless they have to I am sure won't even go to Zindra once it is fully open

They may play child avatars but the operator is an adult so the thinking processes are not those of a child in real situations imho.

Just my opinion though

It occurs to me that people may *want* to think of Zindra as "all Adult all the time"--even though that's just not going to happen. It would never happen anyway, but we now have Jack on the record saying that it won't, and LL is in a good position to arrange outcomes such as this.

People may want to imagine an all-Adult continent for a variety of reasons. An all-Adult continent doesn't appear to threaten non-Adult business models. Or they may genuinely desire a "red light district" where one can immerse completely in the, uh, "Adult experience."

It is certainly possible to have an "all Adult all the time" area. It couldn't have any Linden infrastructure, and I think it couldn't be managed by LL (that is, couldn't be Mainland) because it puts the company in the untenable position of telling Residents "moar pr0n or else." (Talk about bad PR!)

So if there's really a market for an "extreme continent"--which is *not* what Zindra will be and I'm damned tired of hearing it called that--then there's a business opportunity there.

Agreed.

No one outside of SL is going to notice or understand that distinction.
There has been plenty of grumblings about child AVs. That grumbling has now turned into something else. I believe many people were never comfortable with the depiction of children in SL.
Those spiteful people would be the child avatars finding some lame excuse to go into Zindra.
Then you do not understand what the concerns are - or you refuse to acknowledge them. The outside world is not going to understand why Linden Lab advertised a Adult Continent and then posted a statement welcoming child avatars there - and then mix PG parcels in the Adult area. You all have it all logically developed in your brains - but I guarantee you no one outside of SL will see it or understand your twisted definitions.

If people that know SL were outraged over child AVs in Zindra - you have to assume people outside of SL will be also. And yet you all still want child avatars in Zindra - It seems you all still do not get it even after Australia's announcement today about SL being on their no-no list because we do not do enough. Australia is the leader of the pack. Please continue to act like it is not happening.
Linden Lab WIDELY advertised Zindra as their new Adult Continent. So in everyone's mind that is what it is. It is a shame that their own thorough marketing will cause them so much harm.
No one is getting banned. Change the avatar and enter. No issue. And it is not just repercussions -it is respect for the people concerned about what LL is doing about child porn - obviously very little.
Still avoiding the issue and behaving like the injured party.
These are not distinctions anyone outside of SL will get. It is like you all have been role playing so long you cannot even imagine what a person outside of your circle sees and thinks.
For those that think false ARs are the issue - This is not a SL issue that will stay in SL.

Yes they are distinctions people outside of SL will get, SKY news aren't going to run a story where an adult playing a child AV is on land with no adult content around them, even they know that's a complete non-story, they could have ran such a story by now far more easily with throwaway alts. They prey on the implication it's a real child involved, as you need to be account verified to get to Zindra the story has no weight.

Just as they don't run "OMG There are kids in Las Vegas" stories.

the people complaining about child avatars being on zindra seem to be SOME of the people that own adult sexual content businesses in sl..i'm not talking about people with opinions..i am talking about this silly movement..

i find it hard to take an ethical lesson from someone that is part of the lure to why a real life child would be trying to get into zinda..

if the problem they see is putting real life children in danger and we know that real life children will be sneaking on zindra..then why toss the blame to an avatar type that a child would never play if it was trying to sneak onto an adult grid..

if they are so worried about the children then why don't they prove it and close up shop or lighten up..

i'm tired of the weak excuse that child avatars are the cause of this..i've heard more stories of real kids on adult avatars and being with adults..i have heard of only one time that made the media with a child avatar..and those were both adults

if they wanna be super heros then they need to take one for the team and turn the finger at themselves as to why kids would want to think about getting to Zindra..

i'm so tired of people hating other types of avatars..guess what..if there was no adult sexual content on the grid..there never would have been a child avatar media scandal..

i'm not saying adult content is bad for SL..i have had more than my fair share of it as part of my sl..
i do have a problem when they try to take an innocent stance and shift the blame to innocent people..

sorry for the rant but this thread will end up no better than the last one and i just wanted to get in before the lock and let people know..we listening are not that stupid..

*grins broadly to the people that wanted to ban child avatars from Zindra*

Its not going to happen !
Age verifed people can enter, full stop.

Of course as sim owner you get the right to ban / eject a child avatar from your place if you are against it. But if you tell the reason for the ban is that the avatar was a child, you will get an AR ^^

I am pleased to see LL is not making differences between how people want to express themselvesin SL, its a professional action and a good step in the right direction.

Now we must be careful we keep the underaged people away though!

I think you can say "no child avs" (or better put "no sexual ageplay" as that is the issue really people are upset about, not the child avs) on your own mature or adult land. Also you could in your profile if you wished.

All I think you'd need to put, to be responsible, is that visitors are expected to follow the ToS.

I don't think that's correct. I think Goreans can keep banning furries from Adult land, too. (That's not a slam at Goreans, nor furries; I just think that's how it works.) If you own a parcel, you're permitted almost complete discretion about who you ban and why, with the exception of real life intolerance (that is, I don't think a "Whites only" parcel would fare well).