New Zindra Blog Post

It's not the business that's flagged as adult, it's the terms we need to use to advertise our products. If we want to use "Adult" terms in our advertising, the adverts have to point to Adult land. We can -- and do -- continue to sell most of our content from our shop on a Mature sim but we can only sensibly describe the AO, or say that the beds and thrones and things contain extensive BDSM menus, in adverts for the shop on Zindra.

You'll actually find almost identical content in both our main shops; it's just we have to market the stuff differently for each place. We're maybe a bit atypical, in that we've got quite a wide range of products so it's not a big deal to have different shops with different emphases, at least in the advertising. We're also maybe a bit atypical in that we're both submissives and we tend -- though not exclusively -- to make stuff we like doing. Neither of us are into extreme masochism or humiliation, so our stuff tends to be more on the sensual and RP side. But it's made primarily for the BDSM market and those are the natural terms to use in adverts -- we can't sensibly describe a lot of it without talking about BDSM or Dommes or whatever -- and that determines where at least one of the main shops has to be.

Thanks for this Innula. It clarifies things for me a great deal.

Atypical or not, your situation certainly seems to me to highlight one of the unfortunate and/or ridiculous side effects of the AC changes: it does seem bizarre that you need two shops to be sure that you are hitting all of your potential market. Although, I suppose in RL, companies WILL sometimes do something rather like this, marketing one product or service under a different name or in a different community for similar reasons.

Still. I can understand how the AC restrictions make marketing a sort of borderline product difficult . . . and, of course, more expensive.

I still see the behavior, did you check the WEBSITE search as opposed to in-world? They behave differently.

not to me- But then I'm not gorean (know some RL ones tho- not my cuppa). I imagine that it's because the gorean community raised a big stink about "not being all about slavery/sex/whatever)"

Frankly, to my mind, if slavery exists as a societal norm, then that society is about slavery whether they happen to be indulging in it ATM or not. In that situation- masters (usually men) have the fantasies, and the slaves (both men and women) carry them out. It may be RP here in second life, but it is what it is. I don't see the purpose of being coy about it.


BDSM is a carefully controlled wish- fulfillment fantasy in which the *sub* is in charge- the sub has the fantasy, and the dom provides it, and stays within the lines drawn by the sub.

It the words of Johnny Slash, "it's a totally different head... Totally."

That said, I'm not sure that BDSM activities shouldn't be filtered in search as well. the subject isn't "adult", but I consider the activities to be such.

Of course, that's just my opinion- I'm sure that there are as many different styles of BDSM and Gorean RP as there are people who play. my definitions are pretty simplistic and are meant to be a brief statement about such activities from a bystander's point of view.

Just by way of full disclosure:

Although I indulge in a little *light* BDSM on occasion, I'm not enough of an enthusiast to consider it a "lifestyle". I know Lifestyle BDSM-er's and Lifestyle Goreans IRL though, and I'm basing my opinions on my dealings with them, rather than the SL communities.

^V^

It's not the item that is flagged adult- it's the words that you use to advertise it. If you want to advertise a non-naughty item in mature or PG search, you have to do so from a parcel with the proper rating, using terms that don't trip the search filters. if you advertise from an adult parcel, or use a filtered word, then anybody who cannot set their preferences to "adult" won't see your ad either.

I agree that there are a lot of "gorean products" that aren't sexual in nature. However, they are almost always sold in RP sims of various kinds. I've tried fantasy RP, horror, sci-fi, you name it, and there are always vendors in "medieval" sims selling gorean stuff as medieval, or native american, etc. (not that it is either. it is properly called fantasy garb )

But they could change the description to "fantasy RP garb, furniture and accessories" and still sell most of the stuff in a PG sim. (except perhaps for the more daring "silk" designs)

but "gorean" and the attendant terms really ought to be filtered- you cannot play at gor without being exposed or subject to adult activities. and you can call the RP stuff by other names, and sell it from PG land if you like.

I mean, some of the stuff is useful for other applications and settings, but is was *designed* as an adjunct to gorean roleplay. How is someone in a PG sim going to use a cushion programmed with the Kajirah slave positions even if the *can* buy it there? Or a gorean "cuddle rug"?


There are a lot of people who are going to need to put together separate sets of vendors for PG, mature, and adult placement. I guess I'm wondering why the goreans should get a pass when everyone else in "gray morality zone" (..."is for loading and unloading of passengers only. there is no parking in the gray zone" ) is going to have to divide their products into content categories, and buy land of the appropriate maturity level to advertise *from*?

^V^

No, just in-world, I'm afraid.

ETA Just checked again on the Official Viewer, in case the fact I was using Emerald the first time had something to do with it.. nope.. it won't show me BDSM (in any permutation of upper and lower case I tried) without Adult checked.

I think the slides here, made by Mark Kingdon for SLCC 09, are reveiling.

Especially the slideshow-numbers 81 up to 97.

http://www.slideshare.net/guest8541d3b1/slcc-keynote-presentation

We thought ever M. would be the new CEO, but seen in light his job describtion is: gender mainstreamed charwoman, cleaner, char.

So while we are all struggling with details, the big picture around us gets contures... and it seems that the results at horizon are not foreseen to be fun or sexy.

But they aren't, that's the point. TRU sells a few texture packs with "Gorean" in their names. I think it would be absurd to force TRU to retag as Adult because maybe 0.01% of their stock is labelled for relevance to builders in Gorean sims (and elsewhere: I use a couple textures from one of those packs in my stores).

People are just misinformed about what "Gorean" really means, and for that matter, about what really goes on in those RP sims. There's more female-on-male *violence* in Gor than male-on-female; not that it's a femdom haven or anything, but hang out at a Panther camp for a while if you don't believe me.

But you could provide panties, whether the customer worn them is another matter.

LOLs because one of my friends did just that as a shoulder pet.

I don't want to find myself in the position of defending the various categories and the filtering system, because I think it's a stupid idea in the first place. However, I think the point is that there are many people -- makers of textures, clothes, weapons and so forth -- who're going to want to use "Gor" in their adverts to advertise a product range that's by no stretch of the imagination "Adult Content." If you can stand the lag, take a look at the Gor Hub some time; our shop there is certainly one of the more risqué ones in terms of content. Indeed, from the reaction our Master's Thrones and the like get from Goreans when they see what the menus actually do, I get the impression many kajirae and their Masters lead rather uneventful home lives as compared with some of us on the BDSM scene.

Based on my observation, at least, it would be unreasonable to have made people move/re-write all their adverts just on the basis of the one word. Other terms they will want to use in their adverts will put them in the Adult category if that's what their stuff actually is.

As I say, I don't want to defend the classification system. And I am not happy that if you want to use terms in your adverts like "BDSM" and "submissive" you can only do it from Adult land; back in May, Blondin was suggesting that, like "Gor," they'd get take off the list but clearly that didn't happen. However, I'm not prepared to argue that, in the interests of fairness and consistency, LL should behave unreasonably in all cases rather than just some.

What's happened is suspiciously like Linden Lab doing what's in their best interest as a business.

The Goreans set up an 80+ region opensim grid shortly after the adult mess started, and suddenly their words were unfiltered. Linden lab is now selling prefab islands with a castle & dungeon, now "dungeon" is off the list.

My opinion is they are trying to do just enough to keep out of legal and political trouble, but not so much that they drive off all the adult business in SL. That's the only explanation I have for filtering 60 or so adult words, and not filtering hundreds of equally adult words, or words in other languages.

Sadly, I suspect that there is a great deal of truth in this . . .

Thanks for the invite Qie, but Like I said, not my cup of tea- your mileage may vary, of course

I agree that TRU should not have flag as adult because they have a few products for goreans. However, how difficult would it be for TRU to market those texture packs in a vendor in gorean sims that are already flagged as adult? if it is 2 or 3 products, then it would be fairly simple to make some arrangements without needing to use filtered terms on mature or PG land.

My position would be that if BDSM is filtered because of what people *do* with the stuff, then Gorean goods ought to be filtered as well. This isn't about John Norman's novels. this is about how people in RL and SL have used those stories, and what has been built upon them.

What goreans *do* is easily as adult as anything in the BDSM world- in fact the RL goreans I know consider BDSM to be rather vanilla, because it is usually so carefully scripted and controlled.


I understand that there is female on male violence too. However, the basic premise is the same. BDSM is a dom creating a fantasy for the benefit and according to the limits of, a sub. the sub is in charge.

Gor, in both RL and SL, is primarily concerned with the gratification of the "top", for want of a better word. whether that top is male or female makes no difference to me- it works out the same way. Subs are encouraged and expected (at least in RL gorean lifestyle) to completely submerge their wills and desires to those of their master. Some people might be "free companions" but the only relationships I saw like that were constantly teetering on the verge of becoming master/slave- because one partner more aggressive that the other.

LIke I said before, My experiences with the gorean lifestyle have been primarily in the real world, and in SL, I haven't seen much that went against what I saw in real life.

I will certainly grant you that I haven't met every gorean, or even visited every gorean SIm. In fact most of my SL experiences with Goreans have been in public places that were decidedly *not* gorean sims. My guess would be that if they behave that way *outside* their protected environment, then the inside would be far more intense.

My hassle with it isn't men exploiting women (although that *is* a hot button of mine ), but *anyone* exploiting anyone in that fashion.

I can understand *that* some people would want to play that game, but I've never really figured out why they would *want* to do so. I suspect that I'm wired just sufficiently differently that I simply *cannot* understand.

After all I cannot fathom why anyone would eat things like Broccoli and Brussels Sprouts, either, but people frequently *do*.

^V^

I would like to point out that I had NOTHING to do with this current -- and very interesting -- derailment of this thread.

Absolutely not! I take full blame for this one. Not trying to rain on anyone's parade, of course, but with the experiences I've had with Goreans in real life, and in SL, I seem to have a very different impression of "what it's all about" than the folks who usually take up the gorean side of the discussion.

"It shouldn't be filtered because it isn't about sex". seems to be the standard answer, but I frankly have never seen any goreans, in RL or SL that didn't have some form of sexual domination front and center in the relationship. The sex might have been a symbol for a deeper form of submission or domination, but it was *always* there, because except for toilet training, forcing someone (even with their consent) to abandon their sexual mores is about the most difficult thing to do, and displaying that control seems to be quite important to the Master/slave relationship.

At least, that has been my experience- And the difference between "it's all about the sexual domination" and "The sex is only a symbol of a much deeper and more meaningful state" isn't really any difference at all when it comes to whether or not people want to *see* the sex or the the discussions about it in a mature or PG sim.

which is why I don't get that BDSM is filtered, but Gorean isn't. After all, there are a ton of clothing fashions that are called "bondage style", as well as fetish wear of all kinds.

Should all the clothes makers with a fat pack or two of "bondage pants" or "submissive" outfits be shuffled off to pornsylvania? Doesn't the same logic hold?

and if not, *why* not?

LL has never given us a satisfactory answer to this, but I suspect that it has a lot to do with the reasons daniel stated above.

That after 6 months of supposed "study" and almost another 6 of implementation things can *still* be this chaotic and misguided speaks volumes about how important LL considers the adult community in SL. It's something to swept under the rug when the "civilized folks" come to visit- no matter *how* big the lump under the rug is.

It's not the gorean community's fault that LL has drawn the lines where they have. but at least as far as i'm concerned, it is a completely arbitrary line, with no logic behind it. either *both* should be filtered, or *neither* should. and I've yet to hear a good explanation from LL for why that isn't so.

I'm not holding my breath either

^V^

Why is it an unpleasant surprise to find a business acting in what it perceives to be its own best interests? I only wish they'd realise that none of this is in their own -- or anyone else's -- best interests, and drop it.

Well, sure they could; they could even have PG-labelled versions, a la "Moldy Rustic Castle," "Absurdly Ornate Baroque Salon," etc. It would, however, be an artificial commercial constraint: I for one don't shop for textures that way, and I doubt Goreans do either.

Of course, "artificial commercial constraint" is what all this is about anyway. We're in the patently absurd position of debating how many naughty angels can dance on the head of a virtual pin, and it's very difficult to take any of it very seriously. Still, it's the rules--and very much rules of the "game" now, not rules that have any relationship to reality or practical objectives. Being the rules, we're forced to come to some kind of terms with them, absurd though it all is.

So, I dunno. Say there develops a widespread role-play genre for all those menacing post-apocalytic sims in which all sex happens at knifepoint. Say it comes to be known as "Bladerunner" RP. It just seems to me that it's the "knifepoint sex" that might be "Adult Content", not "Bladerunner"--even if every single Bladerunner sim has the same penchant for knifepoint sex and they're all tagged Adult.

Is that fair to the "knifepoint sex" merchants, not to have "Bladerunner" be filtered from Search? It would be unfair, I guess, if one could sell knifepoint sex without calling it that, just labelling it "Bladerunner" and everyone in the market for knifepoint sex could come and get it, and that's what I understand to be the objection to "Gorean" wares being unfiltered.

But I don't think that's how it's supposed to work, if LL ever bestirs itself to enforce the policy. Rather, I think that any knifepoint sex content for sale will have to be on Adult land, regardless of what its called in Search. So then it will be fine to sell Bladerunner boots and belts and pantyhose on non-Adult land, but not those knifepoint poseballs, etc.

And yet, back to the absurdity of the whole mess: What if there were a market for "BDSM texture packs"? (And for all I know, there may be.) Assuming those BDSM textures (as the Gorean ones) in no way depict adult content, why should they be filtered from Search?

This and all the other forums along the ACP and Zindra thing was so relaxing and harmless since March, 12, 2009 until today. I was so *sure* that it would and will be forever a Broccoli and Brussels Sprouts free zone.

So, please, if you can prevent these two words in future?

In exchange I promise to not name these other small vegatables, white ones, small, round kind of weapons... , etc.

Especially since we have full moon in three days on friday and I have to polish my fangs and to plan my evenings, but if you name that green poison again, then I say gar...

I think Innula gave some very reasonable arguments to explain why Gor is not listed -- indeed, the more reasonable because they frankly disadvantage her.

But here is my take on this, which comes at it from a somewhat different angle.

One of the things that I have learned in my last 8 months or so in SL, in some measure because of the generosity of people here in this forum who have been very forthcoming on this subject, is that there is an enormous range of practices and behaviours associated with BDSM, which can range from the harmlessly "naughty," to the outright violent (and, in my personal view, repellent and potentially harmful). The BDSM "community" (or communities) in RL, and in SL, have done a good job, generally, of laying down basic rules to govern behaviours, which include safety features such as "safe words," to ensure that BDSM does not, at least in theory, shade over into real abuse. And, there is a kind of philosophy about power exchange that is the foundation to these practices.

But there is not, so far as I know, a sort of BDSM "world view." Nor does BDSM rest upon a single notion of the relationship between the sexes: males and females may be either doms or subs.

This is NOT the case with Gor. The whole Gorean world is built on a very comprehensive and stable view of human nature and society derived ultimately from one man's philosophical vision. That it is a terribly facile, outdated, and deeply misogynist philosophy is, in terms of the point I am trying to make right now, not really relevant: the point is that EVERYTHING with which the adjective "Gorean" is associated partakes, to some degree or another, of that philosophy, derived ultimately from John Lange, aka John Norman, and his books.

What this means, in my view, is that there is no such thing, really, as an "innocent" Gorean set of silks, or carpets, or furniture, or whatever. They are all self-identifying with a coherent world view that is built, frankly, upon sexual violence. If you sell or purchase a Gorean "cuddle rug" or whatever, you are in some sense, even if only inadvertently and implicitly, "buying into" ALL of the meanings contained within the term "Gorean," regardless of the nature of the object itself.

An RL analogy might be buying a product from a company whose business practices you find unethical. It doesn't matter that the pair of jeans you are sporting has nothing to do with those particular practices: by wearing that label, you are in some sense endorsing the company, and all that it stands for.

To me, speaking as a feminist, the very word "Gor" is wrapped up with all of what we know that particular culture to represent. And for that reason, if sexual violence really IS what we are targeting, I think it should, more even than "BDSM," be listed as a restricted term.

Because I believe that businesses have a responsibility to be ethical members of their community. And a decision that is based PURELY on financial considerations will only be "ethical" by accident.

I could create a VERY long list indeed of businesses that have created horrendous conditions for workers, horrible industrial accidents, etc., etc., because their only consideration was financial gain.

The point is not, of course, that LL is going to produce the SL version of the Exxon Valdez through its practices. But the same principle applies: LL's decisions about "adult content" should be based at least as much on a wide range of ethical considerations (including treating all segments of its customer base fairly), as upon financial concerns.

I would not call it a philosophy. I have no fitting english for that, but in the same way like the word philosophy works not for so called "company philosophies", it works not for Norman books.

(And "TAO" works not as description for LL's ideas...)

Just wanted to say that as short parenthesis without any ambition to interrupt the discussion.

Proceed

True.

Gor in one sentence: "A girl does not give herself as a gift to her Master, the Master gives the slave the gift of ownership."

Even if I change the name to "fluffy bunnies cuddle rug" right after I buy it?

LOL

Perhaps I should say "philosophy manque." I think Norman DOES try to convey a coherent "world view." But, yeah, it's not a very satisfactory one, in any sense. What is most disheartening is that some Goreans (not, obviously, the casual ones) BELIEVE it to be a comprehensive and viable philosophy, as applicable to RL as to role playing in SL.