Gettiing Collared

Ja, stimmt.

(which means - i think - that Ishtara has me right. Whenever I hear people claiing consistency from one player to the next due to them sharing a "lifestyle", it sets off alarm bells for me, because theyr'e trying to buy into someone else's rep, as distinct from building their own)

RL Collars CAN be Cut, and in all but the most extreme cases, the Sub has the Ability to Call a Halt to Play using a Code word generally called the Safe word. If Play continues After the safe word has been used, it Damages the trust the relationship is based upon, and based upon the severity of the treatment after the safeword Has been used it CAN lead to a Dom/me being Utterly ostracised from their little community (I AM talking RL here) I've seen it happen, a sort of Hot Edict goes out, and you would probably be surprised How far reaching this sort of reputation can be. So, SSC still holds, even when there are Lapses.

And as for your Interpretation of Gummi's Comment, That makes sense. We ALL express ourselves Based upon our experiences, and our past associations. Taken in That light i would agree with his observations.
A Long time ago, in another Forum, after i and my slave had done an Interview there, we were accused by a Notorious Troll of Spearheading an Organized Invasion of sorts into the Game world we played in (The Sims Online, Alphaville). I Laughingly pointed out to him, and anyone else who was Interested That if you spent More than an Hour among us You would Realize just how NOT organized we were. We had every outlook from soft Slap and Tickle to,,Well,, Me. But one thing we were Not was Homogenous. I still have to say though, that there are still commonalities that we share, But it isn't so much in the Practices we use, as our attitudes, and our Needs.

I'm afraid i have to Disagree regarding the Full restraints aspect though, In all the communities i have been a Part of, We have been Keenly aware of how Badly a griefer might represent us to the outside world. From my experiences, the people I have known would willingly trade off those permanant restraints in exchange for the Knowledge they could never be used as a griefing weapon. (Interestingly enough though, there is another Thread here about "Fleas" in the Sand Box areas that Attach themselves and Cannot be removed because of the Location of the Attachment, I suppose that COULD form the Basis for permanant restraints) For myself, Each of my babies(RL, and now SL) tells people Even were they to remove my Collar, they would still be Mine because the Real Collar i have on them surrounds their heart. Jewelry or Not, they are STILL Mine, and my word and my Will is stronger than any Chain.

Angel.

That's what I wrote about the purpose of a safe word too, and I agree with you on the high value of trust between the partners involved. In SL there's currently not much need for a safe word, and trust for the means of safety is almost irrelevant, since no one can be forced against their own will. But many people would like such a force to be possible; it would take SL play to a level that comes much closer to real life BDSM. Let's face it: currently SL doesn't support much except for role play. Bondage is impossible, physical punishment is impossible, real feedback in voice, gesture and expression is also (almost) impossible. Why limit ourselves even further by being against real restraints, working cages and lockable collars?



And based upon our mastery of the english language, which I have to admit may be pretty poor in my case. I get the basic spelling including uppercase/lowercase right, but my vocabulary is still limited and my grammar may look peculiar.
I don't claim to have much RL experience or to be an RL Dominant (using a gender-neutral term here, since I also don't claim to be of female gender). My RL experience is pretty limited and it's impossible for me to participate in many activities, which is why I live my kink online (aside from having the wrong gender in RL). Everyone who chooses an online roleplaying platform over RL activities has a good reason to do so. My online experience is pretty comprehensive though.



I've seen and used working restraints and collars in Sociolotron, and it worked very well there. Of course there was a small amount of griefplay. Griefers will always find a way to grief, no matter how safe the system is. But Sociolotron showed the capability of an adult community to handle such potentially dangerous possibilities in a mature and responsible way. It pretty much resembled RL in that regard.
Those particle fleas you mentioned are unconsentual griefing. As opposed to asking a person to wear a lockable collar, which is consentual. If their Dominant refuses to unlock the collar again if they want to be rid of it, the submissive in question didn't choose their Dominant wisely and trusted the wrong person. Why should trust in SL be less important than in RL?

I like those proposals. I'd even take it a step further: a resident should be able to give another resident a limited level of control over their inventory. This would allow a Dominant to dress a submissive to their liking, or to put restraints onto them (as long as the restraints in question are located in the sub's inventory). Item transfer (stealing) should be prohibited of course.
It wouldn't only serve the BDSM community but also help tailors and "image designers". Imagine to be able to adjust prim clothes directly on the customer's body, or to change a person's hairstyle in order to best match her overall appearance.

But I can see that LL will never implement it. Alas, SL is a place of business, no BDSM playground. Well, let's see what Sociolotron II will have to offer.

We agree on Many points Ishtara. ESPECIALLY about trust.
I read about Sociolotron, It was one of the game platforms i was Looking at when i Chose SL. It's a Game Centered in a Dystopia where people Attack, Rape (I read the rape scenarios built into the game, Amazing), and Murder one another, set up Criminal empires based upon Drugs and Prostitution. When i First heard of someone being Banned from Sociolotron for antisocial behaviour i wondered How one makes that determination in a game system designed around antisocial behaviour?
Sociolotrons Game Mechanics allow for many things SL doesn't, and Vice Versa, so what works there may not work here Sociolo has Game Mechanics for Rape, and Violent assault so it stands to reason that Game Mechanics Are in place that can be Easily adapted for the BD/SM Community, and allows them to behave in a more cohesive Manner Because their activities are Built in, Rather than Player designed and Piecemeal. I Would however put forward that a Form of escape is Possible in Sociolotron as well owing to the fact Avatars are Born, Age, and Die. They Can also be Murdered, so i assume some form of assisted suicide is not Impossible, then, a New Av takes it's place, and the Player can Build a New Life. Walking away can be done there too. One other point, Given that Sociolotron Has specific game Mechanics, there is Little room left for Creativity, Innovation or Adaptation. You are stuck in Their world, Bound by Their rules. Question, Are there Furries in Sociolotron? or does that Fall Outside their realm of Possibility? Each system presents Pros, and Cons.

I haven't read the Three proposals yet, but after seeing your responses to them I will Now. They seem Intregueing.

Angel.

Don't forget however, that getting collared isn't specifically to a dom/sub style of play. I've seen some use it as fun play, and even though they wear their collar, they don't answer to master or slave on either side.

And my experience - which is all RL and hardly any online - is that one needs to be very much aware of those who want to identify themselves with your labels and/or philosophy in this situation. More often than not, they do not share the obligation to either tell the truth or play by your rules: unfortunately I can point to two rape trials and one alleged murder in which someone turned up in a subculture, absorbed the public statements of SSC, safewords, yada yada, then just used them to lure people into circumstances where the rules were merrily discarded.

Lots of "L word" players are in the habit of using that L badge as a way of short-circuiting the building of trust with play partners - "I'm Lifestyle, you can trust me". This is the part which I think has zero utility, and quite apart from the trouble it all makes with potential newcomer subs/victims who get mistreated, the other effect is that Doms can't control the reputation that attaches to the word, no matter how they may fantasise that they can.

That's true, but it's true of any word, and there the usefulness of that point forever ends. I mean, look at the words "freedom" and "democracy"! Have you ever seen two words more whored out and used than those two? But they both still have actual, real definitions; they're not just BS terms, even though they're used, of late, as BS terms often as not. It makes no sense simply to discard a word because someone else has chosen to use it incorrectly -- such behavior invites an absurdity wherein we finally find ourselves discarding huge chunks of the English language (so many misused words, so little time!) until, at last, we're unable even to attempt communication.

You'll notice that Mistress didn't simply describe Herself as a lifestyler and leave it at that; She also explained what She means by that. And therein, you see, lies the answer -- not just to this one situation but to many other, similar, ones as well. You see, it's not uncommon for misunderstandings to result from little more than two people using the same words to mean different things, or even two people using different words to mean the same things.

Whups!

Hear that sharp screeching noise? That was my suspension of disbelief, stamping on the brakes. Please try to remember, even though I know that Doms do love to turn everything into a personality clash, so they feel they've won it - there is a basic topic here which ain't about how wonderful the most clearly egotistical dom contributor can make themselves look - it's, at root, how to show those who can't and won't share this value system that it's not threatening to them.

So far, I gotta tellya, the Capital Letters Scattered About In Defiance Of "Eats, Shoots & Leaves" crowd are neither deviating from my previous view of their negotiative shortcomings, nor doing an especially good job of ambassadoring to the uninvolved.

as a collar builder i am not sure i would want really locking collars, just imagine the amount of peoples coming back to the maker 'i want this off please!!'

Would you care to share your thoughts as to why, or is that going to remain a secret?



Clarification: I'm not a Domme, hon. I belong to Mistress Angelique LaFollette and have never made any secret of it.



No kidding. I absolutely agree. So why did you quote perhaps the least important sentence out of my entire post, out of context, in order to rant about something wholly unrelated to the point?

Were you under the impression that I wouldn't notice? Or did you yourself somehow not realize you were doing it?



... which led to your quibbling over the word "lifestyler," which in turn led to my response to that quibble, and now we've come full circle. Perhaps you'd care now to review my previous post and respond to it?



Oh, Gummi, if you want to turn this into a grammar contest, I assure you I'm more than capable of rising to that challenge. What you should realize, however, is that the true measure of an individual's breadth and depth of knowledge and understanding is not necessarily directly proportional to that individual's command of the English language. Assuming that it is only begins by ignoring the more obvious problems of dyslexia and not being a native speaker; other circumstances can also serve as contributing factors.

So since we both know full well what you're insinuating, let me state it now, plainly, for the record: I can confidently say that I've consistently found Mistress's overall breadth and depth of knowledge to be greater than my own (granted, we don't always agree 100 percent on every single little thing, but wouldn't it be boring if we did? ), and feel I've learned a great deal from Her.

So really, no matter what the topic, it always comes back to a big-up for Da Boss, basically.

That's what I was describing... it might do you good to get in some perspective. Personally, on the basis of my few humble bits of contact here and there, I always recommend a good read of this semi-fictional essay by my good friend Mr Ishmael Skyes: http://www.the-firm.org/dt.htm

Now, those who don't laugh at that, or recognise the problem he's describing, have it bad. I'm trying to get Ishmael on here - he'd love it to bits - but he's an impecunious sort and my spares bin is only so full.

See, now there's another thing you'd know if you knew anything about me at all: I don't kiss butts, and I don't tell people what I think they want to hear. I say what I really think, regardless of whether my position is popular. In fact, I developed something of a minor reputation for it here before General and The Sandbox closed.

Now, I'll grant you this much freely: I wouldn't come on here and directly contradict something Mistress said. Then again, I wouldn't chime in if I really disagreed, either, and I'd probably approach Her later in private to discuss my concern, if I felt it was important enough.

Maybe you should consider the possibility that you're approaching this from the wrong angle. Rather than assume (and yes, you're making a gross assumption) that I'm nothing more than a "me too" voice parrotting everything She says, perhaps you should instead ask yourself what qualities She might possess that would make me have so much respect for Her in the first place. That will call for some honest thought rather than just another clever rejoinder, but I believe you're capable of doing it if you choose.



I'll take a look and share my thoughts once I have done so.

Well, that was a quick and easy read. Before I reply, I'd like to point out, more for the benefit of anyone who might be following this, another insidious little phrase used by Gummi:



Translation: "If you don't agree with me, you're wrong."

Now for fun, I recommend actually reading the thing, and then see if you can spot the irony here.

Anyway, on to the point here! Simply put, that little fictional short story looks pretty much exactly like a parody written by a person ignorant of the lifestyle based on a stereotype of what a Domme is (either that or a parody written by a person who dealt with a really, really poor Domme). It's cartoonishly ignorant, like a white supremicist's view of what a black person is, and I find myself, much like someone trying to reason with said white supremicist, in the unenviable position of attempting to reason with a person who is speaking with confident authority from a position of astonishing ignorance.

Honestly, it isn't worth my time to try. But if you ever feel willing to consider for a moment that you might be wrong, Gummi, feel free to visit us sometime.

Eh. It doesn't really seem to work so well there really. Master's take abuses of their subs beyond the consentual. Rape and force brandings are just to name a couple of examples. I have seen Master's lock down their submissives in dangerous underground areas solely for the submissive to be used by others. And unless someone comes along with lockpicking skills, or they use Yahoo which is a TOSable offense, they're pretty much stuck in a dangerous situation. As was mentioned before, rape can occur there. It makes the situation a bit more difficult also if the submissive is pregnant as they can also be force aborted.

Only three ways of getting out of a relationship like that is to 1) Get yourself up to a level 4 submission skill and ask someone to steal you away. One person I knew gave up after 14 tries at being stolen. Seems her Master was smart enough to keep the leash in his vault so that it couldn't be stolen. 2) Give up the skill altogether and to regain the skill, you have to regain the XP for it, which by then is a tremendous amount. There are some there that love the lifestyle but for whatever reasons, choose the wrong Master or Mistress for them. The dominant then refuses to give them back their leashes upon request. Yes, it's a way out but many there don't feel as though they are truly able to take that way out.

The last method is to 'heir' out, which is expensive with suicide crosses, and can present legal problems for the person that assists you in an assisted suicide. This is why so many people are reluctant to assist. That built onto the fact that many players grow attached to their characters and aren't ready to give them up just builds onto it. The process of creating the heir to begin with takes a minimum of 9 days, and that's if you are lucky enough to receive a viable heir the first time. After heiring out, it takes more xp to gain the skills you want to have than before so any goals you were working towards are now even further away.

To be fair, there are four levels of submission and it is only once you have gone to the third level that breaking away from Master is more difficult. But then Sociolotron is also still with the opinion that those who are submissives desire to be raped, tortured, abused and neglected by their Master's. The creators themselves are still under the assumption that this lifestyle is what gives submissives their "jollies" so to speak. The game itself is based upon noothing more than sex with a few creatures here and there to kill.

Now if you could combine the mechanics of the Socio game with the mechanics here you might have a more plausible type of situation. For example, a collar that stays locked when put into place by Master or Mistress, however, the submissive may unlock it with a two day time delay. They click detach, collar asks if they still want to detach, two days later it asks again and if the answer is still yes, collar is unlocked and detached and the dominant is informed that their submissive ran away and life just sucks for them at the moment.

This gives the freedom of choice still for all parties involved and yet at the same time, gives the dominants the control over the submissives that both parties would like to have.

Being collared is completely voluntary. If you don't want to accept it, don't accept it. Simply laugh and walk away, that simple.

As you can see, One of the things i teach my Babies is Critical Thinking. I have been assigning reading to my Girl such as "Gullivers Travels" by Swift and "Don Quixote" By Cervantes, Each one accompanied by Hours of discussion, and exploration, so we DO understand the Power of Parody. alex has Not been taught to just to shut-up, and Submit, She has been taught to Evaluate whether the person she Is submitting to has anything of Value to teach her, and to Judge for herself If that person is Capable of Caring for her. She won't Simply take someone at their word. If people find it So hard to Understand that Far from a Parrot, I desire a slave who has Independent, sometimes Dessenting opinions, then they Really Don't understand Us at all. There Are many levels of D/s relationships as i have said before, Some people are content to own Puppies, and some want to Train Tigers.

As for , Nothing is Farther from the case, I am attempting to Make you Defend your point of View, Point, and Counter Point. You are making several Broad, and sweeping statements in your posts, Many of which from My experiences are, to say the least, Wide of the mark. By Challenging you, i am Asking you to Expand, Expound, Explain, Defend your point of View, But not once have i brought personalities (Or typing styles) into it.

Angel.

PS;
Well Done alex, Mistress is Pleased.

Oh, you want some RL lifestyle CV's in the thread? We can do that. You might not LIKE it, but we can do it. After my sixth TV interview on the subject (that was MTV Europe) I started to realise that people like you really don't like to be reminded that others came before them. As for Ishamael; go read the rest of The Firm's site and consider what Backlash does, or SM Pride, or any of the other RL bodies he participates in. Then come back and tell us about the "ignorance" you believe you see.

I note that you prefer to respond to your wishful translation, rather than read what I actually said. I can't say that I am surprised.

The PS rather contradicts the statement, from where I am sitting. Challenge isn't the only method of interaction (as Ishmael's amusing essay shows). Done his questionnaire yet, or is such introspection beneath you?

Please, BTW, don't set your slaves off looking for "Saliva Path" as an author. it's an english literary joke and of course, if you have Dom. Tox. , you won't see the point of it.

Mistress has been doing it for something like 13 years RL, so I think we're already there and then some.




On the contrary, one of the things we like to try to remind people of is that D/s does in fact predate IRC, and (gasp!) even computers!

Lately it seems there's this perception that it all began with them, or perhaps with the Gor novels, which of course is absurd.



I might, if I can find the time, but Gummi, the initial offering you presented is pretty pitiful, to the point of looking like you were just yanking my chain. It betrays -- and I will say it again, yes -- astonishing ignorance. Or, I suppose, it could be indicative of something more sinister: deliberate, willful deception and manipulation. I'm just giving the writer the benefit of the doubt and making the kinder assumption.

Again, I might go look at the rest at some point, if I can find the time, but it's not like I have infinite quantities of time to devote to every crackpot who comes along. I can only do so much research on foil hats, alien lizards walking among us in human guise, various religions, and supply-side economics, just to name a few, before I have to conclude that what I'm looking at has utterly failed to stand up under scrutiny and must be discarded and thereafter largely ignored (barring genuinely new evidence). If I spent all of my time doing nothing but repeatedly reading everything every person with an agenda wanted me to read, I'd probably be at it 24/7. The bottom line is that I gave you your opportunity to present something worthwhile, and you directed me to laughable tripe. That tells me most of what I need to know.



Ah, then you're claiming my statement was untrue? That you weren't saying with that statement, essentially, "if you don't agree with me, you're wrong (and obviously have problems)"? I bet most anyone who read the statement I quoted would agree with me and disagree with you. See, it's called reading comprehension. Did you read your own statement?

> pretty pathetic

Troll.

Well, I read the little essay posted by Gummi, and had to laugh. I took it as a harmless satire and don't think it's supposed to attack anyone or present anything in a wrong light. If I read a humorous article about most women's addiction to shoes, mentioning giant shoe bins in the size of a living room, I can smirk without being a mysogynist (or assuming the author would be one). Even more, I'll detect my (SL) persona in that article and smile about myself, because it contains a little truth.

That's what satire is all about. A little truth, greatly oversubsribed and presented with a smile, not intended to hurt anyone. People shouldn't take their hobby so serious that they're unable to smile about themselves. The "lifestyle" is a hobby, or a kink, a sexual orientation - it's supposed to be "fun" in a way, otherwise people might be doing it for the wrong reasons. It's neither a religion nor an exclusive secret society. Anyone can join and participate if they think it might be fun for them as well. One has to learn a few basic guidelines, agreed... especially to respect other participants. But it's a leisure activity, a fun sport, and whoever takes it too serious must be prepared to become the target of a friendly joke.


/PS: I read the comments on Socio, and they are true. Sociolotron was a game that resembled RL as good as possible, in a post-apocalyptic environment. Force, even rape and murder were possible, and those actions were considered a crime. A crime that the residents themselves could deal with by either vengeance or legal actions. It required common sense to figure out how far one could go in Socio, just as it does in RL. I can see that it was a little too extreme, which is the reason I left it for SL. But I liked a lot of aspects about Socio, especially the "real bondage", and miss this realism in Second Life. I'm sure there's a middle way for adult online worlds to come.

Two things alex,
First,
His probable response Could be something Akin to "Fictional Psychosis for a Fictional Lifestyle". Granting he doesn't seem to believe that D/s has sufficient cohesivness to be regarded as a Lifestyle, Or Simply that the Term Lifestyle is no longer applicable simply because Some persons have Chosen to Misuse it. But then, that goes back to the Original Differing points of View we had regarding what Constitutes a Lifestyle. He has his View, I have mine, But No matter that we Choose to Differ, I Choose not to degenerate into personal attacks. In any event, the Parody was Amusing, but being Amusing isn't sufficient grounds to Adopt it as a Factual Basis for observations on Human behavior. It's sort of like saying I don't Understand what it is to be Black because i don't behave like Stepn' Fetchit (Famous Black Movie Actor from the 1930's, for those of you Not as well versed in Cinema History). Parodies are Exagerations, or Distortions of Reality, NOT reality It's self. I Laughed, because that was what i was meant to do, But No, i didn't see any Deeper meaning in it because i am Well versed enough in my Own lifestyle to recognize that, even though it touches lightly on some aspectsof D/s, it Isn't really an accurate portrait.

Second,
Please use a Smaller Type Font for responses, that one seems Too much like Shouting. I'm sure that was not your Intent, But remember people here cannot Hear your Voice, so they cannot hear Inflection or read Emotional Intent beyond the Various Internet Chat conventions. Big Type=shouting, and raising your Voice isn't Polite Little one.

Angel.