Gettiing Collared

Uh, you do realise how that reads if you take out the "D/S" and apply it to the bible, don't you? A lot of people THINK they are doing exactly that, especially in the US... In fact you could argue that SL Goreans are just using a differnt book, in the manner they have been taught to use the Bible, as a set of Rules.

(I agree, it's damaging, but then that's just our perspective)

Oh yes in that case it becomes even more true. The bible is one of the worst books one can try to live by, along with the quran and the thora. Living by the so-called "good book" is even dangerous and leads to an almost uncurable delusion - the wrong perception there'd be an eternal life, which ultimately devalues the physical life.

Ish......your inviting can openers, and this is one "CAN" I'm certain you do not want to open....at least not here! It would probably be wise to keep that kind of discussion (comments on religion) out of SL. I respect your opinion but others may not be as open-minded.




-Wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole!

This has been my Greatest Objection to Treating what i do as a Game, The Role Players don't truely Understand just how much emotional Damage they can do with a wrong word, or Deed. I hear so Many of the Pseudo Dominants talking about Breaking their slaves. They of course don't realize, that Training a slave involves a Great deal of trust, and Emotional involvement. If one "Breaks" a slave, One can do Incalculable Damage. If one "Deconstructs" a slave, One has to have a VERY specific idea how toPut Him/her back together again in the way one wants.
This is one of two Analogies i use very often in Trying to get these game Players to Understand What it is they are doing.
One sees a rough diamond, it's an Unattractive, brown, and lumpy little thing. Incredibly Valuable, but no aestheticly pleasing. Place it on an Anvil, and strike it with a Sledge Hammer. The result is a Lot of worthless sand. That is Unskilled Hands Breaking a slave. Place that same stone in the Hands of a Skilled Gem Cutter, and he will examine it and Plan thoroughly before he even thinks of Marking the stone. He will Map it's Flaws, Plan to remove some, and work WITH the ones that are Too Deep. A Gentle tap here and there, executed at precisely the right angels reveals Facet, after Facet that was once Hidden. With Patience, and Polish, Each portion that is taken From the stone only Enhances it's Brilliance, it's Value, and it's Beauty. The stone is Not Diminished. In the end, the Cutter has Taken away everything that did the stone No credit, and left a Lusterous Gem where once stood an unattractive Pebble. This is a Slave in the Hands of a Skilled, and Experienced Dominant.
It takes Years to learn Just how far one can go. It takes Years to learn to take responsibility for another as we do with our slaves. I've Tried to make people Understand it Isn't a Game.
Unfortunatly, Not everyone is Capable of Understanding.

Angel.

I love you, do you know that?

I agree so here with you, Angel. I myself ain't a true Domme, nor a submissive (to be honest I am rather confused about my feelings on this matter).
Anyway, I do a very close friend who is deep submissive. This I why I have some interest in the subject. Lets say, to understand her better (as far that is possible).
I have seen what confusion, pain and hurt a Master/Mistress can cause who doesn't know what this all about.
As you say this kind of relations are about trust and safety.
As long Domme and submissive are "pseudo" (as you call them) there is not much wrong (maybe apart from creating a complete wrong image about this).
But well one of two is a "true" Domme or submissive, things really can go out of hand.

Luckily, my friend has now found the safety she desired. I am happy for her.

Now having said that, I also would like to say, I love roleplaying... but specially roleplayers should be very aware of the border between roleplaying and reality.

I hope this all makes a bit sense, I wouldn't want to cause wrong ideas and alike by using the wrong words (English is not my first language).

Morwen.

That's true. No one should attempt to break a person. And even with careful de- and reconstruction - not everyone can and wants to live a Dom/sub relationship on such a deep level. It certainly is the right thing for some submissives, but others have quite a strong personality combined with submissive kinks, and are just looking for someone who plays along and satisfies their needs. Just different degrees of involvement into the lifestyle. Some crave for constant guidance, while for others it's barely a lifestyle, more of a leisure activity. I personally wouldn't try my hand at a submissive who needs a strong and guiding dominant at all times, someone who needs to be rid of all own responsibility to feel safe. I feel better with the headstrong, self-assured submissives who can clearly show and tell me what they need, and whom I can trust to tell me when I'm going to far. Perhaps I'm a rather unskilled gem cutter who prefers almost perfect gems that just need a little bit of polishing.


It made a lot of sense The border between roleplay and reality (or real emotions) is always blurry, and a pure roleplayer can really hurt a lifestyler when he's not aware that it's more than just a game for a submissive.




I love you too I love all human beings, all living beings even. That's why I wish for every delusion out there to be cured, and for everything that endangers and disunites people to be gone.




You're right. *sighs* I wish the age of reason would finally come and we could just throw away this can. And afterwards openly talk about the can and its rotten contents. Just imagine - people could realize that they only have those 70-90 years and start to truly value life - their own life and the life of others. They could speak the truth and draw funny cartoons, without others burning flags and buildings.
I've been born inside the can and know how harmful it is, and how much trouble it is to find a way out.

i post my usual random gorean flame..... and suddenly this post is the Topic! the hit! and all goreans show up..... eek..

I hate large red text. LOSE IT!

gawd..I still miss that show!

The slaves i choose (More rightly, the ones Most Attracted to me as a Mistress) are the ones that Burn with that Deep Inner Fire, it often Manifests it's self in Bouts of "Acting out". I love them Strong willed, Intelligent, Spirited (Ones often Viewed as a Discipline problem). In Training, i seek to Harness that Fire, Not extinguish it. In Caring for my babies, Helping them Find thier Centres, Find that Calm, and Control that they lack, I help them find peace, and when we reach that point, it is Very rewarding to see how much they have Grown, and even more rewarding whe the slave Themselves can See the Difference in his/her life. My babies tend to be Fiercely Loyal, and actually, Very protective of me. I frequently have to Restrain them when they feel someone has done me Injury, or Insult. One does Not gain that sort of devotion Easily. As i say,, these sort of slaves require a Firm, and steady hand on the leash.
More Often than Not, a Newer Master, or Mistress is best paired with a Trained, and Veteran slave. These types Can be more Pliant, But more Importantly, they can Give their new Owner Confidence. An experienced slave is also Past most of the more delicate aspects of Training, so a Newer Dom/me can make a Few more Mistakes, and the slave will not Suffer Unduely because they already Possess the Correct Mindset. In addition to this a New Dom/me should Pair with a More experienced Master/Mistress for Advice, and Guidance.
As i said, i have been in the Lifestyle for Many years, Very close to sixteen years now, and the One thing i can tell you for Certain. ALL slaves or subs are Unique. Some may present Similar Archetypes, but they are vague at best. There is No One kind of person more prone than others to be Submissive, The same Holds true for Dominants. A Large Part of what we do is Intuative, it Takes an Ability to Think, and Adapt quickly, to recognize Danger signals, and to adjust rapidly to compensate for them.
Dominance is a Subtle, and Complex Art form and Really, it should NEVER be approached Lightly, or Frivolously.

Angel.

That's what I think too, all submissives are unique. Every human is unique. And not everyone who is into the BDSM lifestyle or has BDSM kinks can live it at the same level. For some it is a view of life, for others just a kink, a need they satisfy in the evening or on the weekend, and when the session is over they need to be valued and respected as an independent person again. Those aren't pretenders or wanna-be's, they just recognize their kink as a hobby, a leisure activity. It's up to everyone how much they want or allow themselve to become involved.
Of course, a dominant has a high responsibility, I agree with you there too. One can't approach it lightly by taking on a sub without having a clear perception of that particular sub's needs. That's why I said I personally wouldn't take a sub who needs a lot of guidance and a very strong dominant. I know that I'm no 24/7 lifestyler, so I look for submissives with the same degree of kink. I surely have the experience to recognize subs who need more than I'm able to give, as well as roleplayers who are only looking for some easy-going bondage games and would give me less than I need (although even that can be enough at times).

I don't say anything would be wrong or better or worse. No kink is better or worse than mine, my kink isn't better or worse than any other. I respect any form and degree of kink, the weekend BDSMler as well as the full-time lifestyler. Kink may be the wrong word... let's say sexuality. No one's sexuality is wrong or worse than any other form of sexuality, as long as everything is played safe and consensual and both partners (or all 3 or 4 or 5 partners) get what they need.

Heartily agreed. In this context we are saying "any book is bad" but the truth is uncomfortable, and i see it like this:

- if one is serious about offering protection and or recovery from abusive BDSM play, one cannot take a position that makes one's most likely audience turn away

- the most likely audience for that service is those who haven't thought much for themselves

- we can make our own guesses who fits into this category

it's a bit like atheist shrinks, who treat the religion before the dysfunction. Their success rate isn't good, and saying "well people shouldn't be religious" just doesn't get the job done.

ok, so if someone can put in a gorean flame, I can do my lifestyle rant too...!

There IS NO LIFESTYLE. Let's get that straight. It's a badge used by people who have no other way of identifying status, and that absence of identifying signals is a direct result of the very very narrow bandwidth of the IRC medium in which "lifestylers" play. it's a direct analogue of the underline, in typography: this grew to be used only because early typewriters had no way of producing any other text effect, except drawing a line under some words by reversing the platen and whacking out line characters. Those who learned to express themselves on a typewriter grew attached to that system, and thus even in front of $5000 of word-processor, they still underline.

Online Lifestylers are the underliners of our era. They are used to restriction of expression - they have only self-declaration, in words, to present themselves with, and what's more, they only have two types of human to discuss - Sub, and Dom. On a text-only medium, it's necessary to say "i am 100% lifestyle Dom" because if you don't say it, nobody has the faintest idea whether you are "arthur or martha".

SL is different. As with RL, dominance (or submission) inheres in the avatar, to a very great extent. If you are an exuberant or extroverted person, then so is your chosen avatar: if you are a quiet little mouse - you can be a quiet little mouse. All the signalling methods people used to use in the sexual underground before the net came along (gasp) work in SL. This makes "lifestyle" as outdated as having good handwriting.

(someone may get a PhD out of whether the limited expression of self and body language in SL is enough for people to trigger predator/prey signals, which are the things that get you mugged in RL: i certainly believe they are present, and that would surely explain why some dom players are stepping outside the borders that the Lifestylers believe still work, and cause trouble as shown by the OP in this thread)

Your Statement of "THERE IS NO LIFESTYLE" Is of course Patently wrong.
Your Definition of "Lifestyler" and Mine are Obviously Different. When i Refer to being a BD/SM Lifestyler, I'm Referring to one who Practices In RL, and HAS practiced Independant of any Computer or text communications what-So-Ever. I'm Speaking of my VERY real collection of Whips, and Floggers, My Cuffs, Chains, and Manacles. I'm speaking of the Numerous women IRL who have been Kneeling at my Feet. I'm Talking about the training, and Lessons i have Given In Real Life, In the Flesh to persons who have Submitted themselves to me. I have Never been in IRC (I understand it is something like a Group Yahoo chat or some such thing), I've been in TSO, and in SL, Originally in Other Occupations, But i found being Myself to be the Most Satisfying way to Interact with people. For me, SL has been an Interesting way to Extend my Skills, but the Computer isn't the ONLY world i have done this in.

For me a "Role Player" is one who does this On Line, and does not have the skills, Training, or Experience (Or the desire for that matter) to Carry it into RL. I have Met Many Lifestylers in SL, and TSO. I've met those with the necesary personality to Bring what they do into RL, and for me, they are Lifestylers also because they don't just play around the Edges, they have Learned what it is to enter our lifestyle Fully, and responsibly.
There are those who are exploring a side of their personality which, for Various reasons, they Cannot explore in RL. The thing that makes THOSE persons Lifestylers as opposed to Role Players is their dedication, and the Level of learning and research they go to in order to explore that other Facet of their Being. They don't just learn enough to Talk a Good game in SL, and IF the opportunity ever does present it's self for them to Explore IRL, they Will have both the Skills, and the Mindset do Act upon that Opportunity (I Have Seen several cases of this happening over four years with most satisfying results).

I Understand your Confusion regarding the Use of the term "Lifestyler" by some Players, and Yes, Many DO describe themselves as such who have never REALLY been on either end of the Leash. For someone Not in the Life, they can be hard to spot mostly because people tend to judge us from stereotypes rather than direct Imperical Knowledge, and those Players DO try their hardest to live up to Most of the stereotypes.

There ARE RL Goreans, Just as there are RL Furries. The RL Goreans behaviour is markedly different from what you see on Line but then, SL makes several things Possible that one simply can NOT do IRL because Reality has a habit of getting in the way. But having seen Only the Internet Computer side of BD/SM, you appear to have made the Mistake of assuming that it is the ONLY form.
I have to say However, your observations with regards to the Limits placed upon the Lifestyle by a completely text environment, and the Relative Freedom of SL are very Astute. Even the Differences between how it was Practiced in The Sims Online and SL show a Marked disparity, but then, the More Flexable the Environment, the more Flexable the Practices will become. On Line BD/SM is Evolving along with the Mediums ability to allow expression.

Angel

...there goes that famous dominant's ability to achieve consensus! ROFL!

...you are standing up to defend people whose actions/reactions are not worth defending, because they have (mis)appropriated a badge you rather like for yourself. This strikes me as an iniquitable transaction - you ain't gonna get from them anything that pays you back for that defence, and your declarations of the flexibility of "Lifestlye"ism only go as far as... well, you: they are individual.

Which is, in fact, what I was saying - what's the use of a term that varies so widely from person to person? If I take your carefully argued personal philosophy, and assume I'm going to be able to use it to interact with another person... it won't work. So, the way I see it, why start attaching all that to a much-abused term? "Lifestyle" gets used as if it's like "PhD": what you're saying (and I'm agreeing with) is that it's much more like "solvent" - you are solvent if you have $1, or $1,000,000.

(I also deeply object to people claiming lifestyle who are not RL activists, because all those I've known in RL who do the most work, don't claim the label. But I'm not gonna list out my fetish CV here -catch me in SL if you want to know that)

Actually, returning to the OP, it would be quite interesting if there were a collar that you really couldn't take off! Given that there are apparently cages you can't get out of without TPing, it would be an interesting technical challenge to extend the power of scripting to an item that when locked on, couldn't be removed. Some failsafe would be needed of course ...

Incidentally, some people contributing to this thread may also be interested in this one: /128/f6/146494/1.html#post1323668

Well, seen like that.... you can't take off any collar in SL. There is, of cause a fail-safe, called "Detach" in the circular menu. Problem solved ^.^

[(I also deeply object to people claiming lifestyle who are not RL activists, because all those I've known in RL who do the most work, don't claim the label. But I'm not gonna list out my fetish CV here -catch me in SL if you want to know that)]

Well Gummi, we Seem to Agree on that particular definition of Lifestyle, whether those of your aquaintance care to lay claim to the actual title or No. Whatever the Calling, a Lifestyler is one who's Chosen idiom is an ACTIVE force in their REAL LIfe. If your contention were that Most of those claiming the title for themselves are Unqualified to do so, i would have agreed 100% with you, However, you simply said that Lifestyle doesn't exist. Since you see a correlation in your own sphere of Activism, then Obviously a definable parameter of Lifestyle DOES exist. As for getting those persons who do not fit that description to cease calling themselves a Lifestyler, Well, they could have many reasons for Describing themselves as such, from a Genuine belief that OL=RL to the opposite end of the spectrum, Knowingly Misleading others as to their qualifications or Intentions. In any event, there is no real way to stop them. the Only other option is more or less what I do by Discussing my lifestyle with others, and That is, Giving people enough accurate information so they can judge for themselves.



The closest anyone has come is a Collar that "Locks" in place and sends a Message to the Owner should their Property slip the Collar Off. That's about it.
To be Honest, I wouldn't like to see that kind of developement. One of the Bywords of the BD/SM community in general is "SSC", Translating into "Safe, Sane and Consentual". However it may appear to those on the Outside Looking in, All those taking part in out Lifestyle, either On Line, or IRL are doing so of their Own Free Will. Removing someones ability to Just Walk away, is a Violation of trust, and the Tenet of SSC. it would be Abuse,and It wouldn't be welcome as part of our community. The Only REAL market for an Inescapable Collar (Or cage) like you describe would be among griefers, and they have enough toy's to play with as it is.

Angel.

>sigh<

You're probably right.

In the current version, it isn't possible. Essentially, when someone detaches an item, the scripts in the item get a message saying "you were just detached, deal with it." Not "do you want to be detached" or anything like that.

Oh, and non-phys motion will, AFAIK, get you out of any cage too.

If people are being offered collars and similar without their wish, all you need to do is not wear them. If you want to be nice, you can refuse the inventory offer; if you want to be mean, they resell for about L$500 each. Regarding being caged in Gorean sims, I think that's still an area that's not quite clear: technically, although sim owners have the right to make "rules" for play in their own sims, they can't override the TOS/CS and the limit of what they can do is to eject or ban you from the sim.

Oh, and as for the opinion angle... I saw some scripted collars when I first arrived in SL (Kyrah's I think), and I was intriuged by how well they were done (amongst other things the particle chains were the first time I'd ever seen particles used for anything like that), and I was trying to make one myself for a while (although this was in my nutty learning-so-I'll-try-anything phase and I think someone had to tip a bit of a bucket of water over my head to remind me that a scripted collar did not need an internal macro language and a particle designer! So much for those months ). But whenever I see them being used I always find the "dominance" they suggest really kind of false. After all, even though the "slave" might seem to kneel and follow the "master", they could in actual fact be away from the keyboard having a cup of tea. If they can't be bothered to move their av with the keys and run some animations themselves then how much "service" or devotion are they really showing?

Laughingly, when i first posted here i said i wouldn't go into the "Why's" of it all, but people keep saying things that need some kind of answer.

I think I'll just say this, This goes to the Original answer to the Question of this Thread. It's a Prime example of how one Cannot be Forced to submit Unwillingly. Holding someone against ones will is simply Not Possible. Now, If Yumi wants to explore the Other half of this question I can be reached In Game Tomorrow, and i would be pleased to discuss the Mechanics of Submission at length. Trust me there is a LOT more going on than just a few poses, and animations (If one is doing things Right). One or more of my slaves would also be around, and you can get their perspective as well.

Angel.

rl Gorean ?? by definition Gorean = Fiction. There is nothing real about it what-so-ever. You might as well say rl stargate, or rl robocop, or rl martian. Novels are NOT real.

Furthermore Gor is never been consentual, thus strengthening my point it's NOT real as well turns to the point of this thread. Keyword consentual.

However, with the blown up Ego's of the typical Gor person they think they make the rules for everyone and if they say it's real it's real and if they say you are theirs, you are theirs, and if they say there are 2 moons, there are 2 moons, but in the REAL REAL they are nothing more than ego and fiction.

Any person with a little common sense knows how to mute, ignore, ban, tp, etc right out of there wannabe "REAL", while they find some justification for what REALLY happened.

Hm... when you place a lockable collar around one's neck in RL, the collared person can't take it off unless you unlock it or hand them the key. Of course, the collaring process happened consentual; the continuous wearing of the collar is forced though. Same goes for a chastity belt or chastity cage; it's consentual in the sense that the submissive partner has to agree to wear it, but it's crucial that they can't take it off on their own. Otherwise, where would be the point? You could just take their word that they stay chaste. Bondage is another example; where's the point if the restrained person isn't really helpless?

By the way, restraints remove one's ability to just walk away. That's the whole point of bondage and restraints. This is neither griefing nor real abuse; in a way abuse and "consentual nonconsentual" force is a great part of BDSM, since many submissives feel the need to be "abused" (to be helpless and at someone's mercy). Always under the premise that the Dominant has the submissive's overall consent to be abused and forced, and that the submissive can trust her Dominant to stop as soon as a safe word is used. Abovementioned chastity device is a good example for such "consentual unconsentual" games, since after two chaste weeks it will surely stop being consentual from the begging and pleading submissive's point of view.

That being said, real force (working restraints, real cages, lockable collars) would be most welcome to a part of the BDSM community in SL. Guess that's what Gummi meant with "there's no lifestyle"; the lifestyle comes in so many variations and the lifestyler's needs are so different and individual that no one can speak for the whole community.