a Newbie with a Kid avvie

as i predicted, syntax, symantics, minutae...

okay, this thread is officially off topic. any mods want to delete this, go ahead.

They never delete, only lock.

All I've been saying here is that you're falling over eachother in your stampede to outlaw thoughts to show what upstanding citizens you are, without really considering the wider implications of your actions. I don't want a society in which we outlaw certain ideas or certain people who say certain things just because we find them repulsive or because of specious arguments that doing so might prevent some bad things from happening.

As a RL parent I am all about protecting children. But I also value having a society in which decisions aren't made on some knee-jerk basis in Maude Flanders' style "Please won't someone think of the children!" And I definitely don't think we should do things just to make ourselves feel good about doing "something", regardless of how effective it actually is. Witch hunts are for pilgrims, not educated 21st century citizens of a still marginally free nation.

Heh, whoops! My bad. Anyhow, I was asking, and the answer seems to have turned out to be yes. Oh well.

EDIT: So, for the record, I don't think judging = permitting. It's easy to lose track in the heat of things. Good catch, Lance.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4205497.stm ---For UK people


if a child really is behind a child avie, what's your excuse? I thought i was having sex with an adult impersonating a child?

Child abuse is a terrible thing. The odd thing to me though is, If someone was spotted in Second Life shooting people dressed as children someone might abuse report it and it would probably not even get a mention in the forums. But when it's sex abuse it turns into a 14 page thread.

real children I'd still tolerate as long as the person doesn't do anything to children. Preventively jailling people is a bad, very bad thing. Suggesting (not imposing) medical help to that person would be the right thing to do in this case, imo.

As for fictionnal childrens, (there was "real or not" in the post I replied to), I find it acceptable for people to think about them sexually. It's not my business to care about what goes on in their head.



Ok, so you're intolerant.

I hope for you you'll never be on the wrong side of the rack. I'm sure some would be happy to beat a (presumed) deviant who spend time in a porn game (SL).
Who knows, maybe you live in a state that forbid ANAL SEX ?! And maybe you have it in SL? Do you sometime fantasize about anal sex?
If the answer to these question is yes, then some people think you are a sick fuck, and that you should be beaten to death with a steel rack (or stoned to death if they care about tradition).




If someone who wants to be with pretend children finds out there is a child in the midst and doesn't report the child to SL then he should be prosecuted. But the same goes for someone who date a hot adult looking blonde who find out it's a child.

Note that I don't think a child would play a child AV... in order not to attract LL attention.

In a game where minor are not supposed to be present, wouldn't it be a valid excuse? If the other "adult" doesn't admit to you he is in fact an IRL kid, how would you know?

Do you think that was guy who got sentenced to two years' excuse?

I read the article and I understood it like this:
- guy says he's 19 to a 13 yr old girl to seduce her
- guy knows she's only 13 yr old.
- guy get caught (thankfuly).

What does it have to do with an adult who would do cybersex with a child AV who would happen to also be a child IRL, but without the adult knowing ?

just thought i'd stir it up a bit more

What goes on between two consenting adults is between two consenting adults. If they enjoy sexual roleplay between each other whereby one is pretending to be a minor... well, whatever floats their boat, they're within, in my opinion, their rights of privacy. Some people find some pretty bizarre things erotic ( ), and some of these things would be pretty much the anti-thesis of erotic to others, even offensive or frightening.

The moment this crosses over that rather clearly defined line where it begins involving real minors, they're in violation of the law and these laws should be enforced.

There's a big difference between fantasy and reality, despite the fact that some have difficulty perceiving that dividing line.

Along the same line... does this mean anyone who's into bondage should be jailed, since they're obviously simulating non-consentual sex, and are therefore just as guilty of rape as a person who goes out and actually rapes someone? Weird, isn't it?

This is clearly a highly charged issue, and not easy to respond to in simple terms. There are basically two instances here that need to be addressed:

First. We have evidence of child pornography or abuse that involves children in the real world (e.g. uploaded images or exploitation of a minor). In this case we will act to protect the child and notify the authorities. The individuals involved, if it's proven the exploitation occurred, will be banned from SL.

Second. There are people in SL who are role-playing as children engaged in sexual activities. There are no real children involved. While not a Terms of Service violation (no illegal activity) it could be argued that this behavior is broadly offensive and therefore violates the community standards. "Content, communication, or behavior which involves intense strong language or expletives, nudity or sexual content, the depiction of sex or strong violence, or anything else broadly offensive must be contained within private land in areas rated Mature (M)." If this activity were in public areas (as was the case with the anime images) it would be viewed as being broadly offensive, and therefore unacceptable. What consenting adults do in private, however distasteful others may find it, is allowed under these standards.

If you see behavior that you think falls into the first instance, please contact Linden Lab immediately. In the second case, please file an abuse report, and include the chat logs and/or screenshots you are concerned with.

Thank you for the clarification Robin. A touchy issue, but I think LL's policy is exactly right. Not dictating what consenting adults do in private, yet stopping people from flaunting what would be offensive behavior to majority of SL residents and making it clear that actual child pornography would be in no way tolerated (of course).

I have seen a lot of posts, "Vote with your pocketbook, if you don't like something, leave." and am wondering if that applies here. I don't want to support this behavior at all. If LL says this kind of thing is alright then fine, maybe I am in the minority. Maybe my values are old fashioned and really don't belong here, who knows. I do know that I will not in any way financially support a company that allows this kind of behavior, thats my choice.

I have seen the arguement, "It's fantasy, it really doesn't have any meaning"
I counter-argue, if it does not have meaning then why are you so vehemently defending it? If it did not have meaning, why do you do it? I can only assume that for the participants involved in this sort of behavior, it does have meaning, it provides them some gratification or they would not do it.

We are not talking about censoring *thoughts*
We are talking about whether Roleplay of this nature should be allowed by LL. That's not a thought, that is active sexual roleplay which sexually objectifies children.

There is something called 'moral relativism' to anyone unfamiliar with the term, I suggest you look it up. In short, it is sitting on the fence on a moral issue. I think this is definately a moral issue. I think that the moral issue is the sexual objectification of children. I think that this issue has a clear cut definition of right and wrong. I think that it is definately wrong in any form, no matter how you want to cut it up and try and define it. The reason those statements all start with, "I think" is because they are personal opinions of mine that I am expressing.

I will not condone this form of "expression" or "play" or "art" in any way, shape, or form. As such, I am downgrading my account effective immediately to a basic account until such time as Linden Labs releases a statement to the effect that this behavior is NOT condoned by Linden Labs and will be proactively punished.

I think it's sick and I won't put one penny of mine in a company that allows this behavior to continue.

Just my 2 cents

Jessica - we're not at all condoning the behavior. Please do not misunderstand us as making a moral judgment. We are not because we are not in the business of legislating morality. Nor in this environment, would we be able to, even if we thought it was a good idea.

Second Life, in many ways does mirror the first, in terms of range, diversity and interests of residents. We very much value your perspective, and your opinion is extremely important in the formation and evolution of this Second Life. But at the same time we value diversity and tolerance as building blocks for the world. This value sometimes translates to accepting the behavior of others, not dictating how they should behave, even if we disagree with their choice.

So you'll downgrade and stop paying LL money, but wont stop playing? A very noble protest.

Of COURSE they're not condoning it. They just recognise that there is little they can do without actually dictating a policy on what is or isnt ok virtual sexual practice. Heh. I bet that'd see far more drama than this thread has!

What is it with people on these forums? Everything is so black and white, isnt it? Disagree with the notion we should dictate what is or isnt 'right' or 'wrong' between consenting adults and you must be condoning paedophilia. Uhuh. Just like disagreeing we should have full disclosure of alts is condoning griefers, I guess.

Or it could be that we just dont feel that everyone should be dictated to because we don't like the actions of a very, very small minority. Which is LL's view too, fortunately.

Well, speaking for myself Jessica, I'm not defending just this one type of roleplaying or behavior. I'm defending the right to practice ANY type of consensual roleplaying between consenting adults. It is thier business and not yours. If it gets them off, that is thier choice. Again, they are doing nothing to any child. It is thier right. You have no more right to tell your neighbors what to fantasize or act out than they do telling you. Who is harmed in this scenerio? Certainly not any children...

Censoring peoples thoughts and what they do consensualy is always a very dangerous thing to start.



Well..actually, roleplaying is 90% imagination, thus 90% thoughts, and %10 props. It's just sharing your thoughts with another., so in effect, you are trying to censor other adult's thoughts. or the ability to communicate them.



To my knowledge, LL isn't here to provide moral judgements.



Which is certainly your right as a consumer.



So you want to control what other consenting adults do in private? You want to control what they fantasize about, what games they play, what activities they practice between them? Careful, someday someone might come and try and control what you think and do in private as well, and I don't you'd like that very much.

While I would certainly share your outrage if any children were involved, I can't support your censorship of others privacy, nor you forcing your morals upon others, when no harm is being done to anyone.

You should cancel your internet account, as there are a million 'schoolgirl' websites featuring concenting adults roleplaying in this exact manner.

Also, your telephone, as people have phone sex and do the same thing.

Make sure you don't rent DVDs/Tapes from a store with an x-rated section.

Or buy groceries, lottery tickets, or other sundries from a store that features pornography (check for "barely legal", "18", etc).

This is going to be a difficult venture for you, but I wish you luck on it!

It is not that I am a prude or that I do not understand the desire to roleplay desires that may or may not be able to be done in real life. I have used the forums to express a strong personal opinion of mine. I understand the other side of the arguement, I really do. You feel that you should be able to express yourself any way you wish and for anyone to be able to dictate otherwise is seen as an attempt to stifle your expression and creativity.

I am expressing a very strong view of mine, and yes, it is a personal view. I thought that was what the forums were for. To express your viewpoints and discuss and debate them with others. I personally draw the line somewhere, and for me, this is over that line because of what it represents. In fact, it is so far over the line, for me, that I wanted to try and effect a change in policy because, to me, not doing anything about it is to allow it to continue which, to me, isn't acceptable.

I guess it all depends on how you view the issue, for me it isn't so much that it doesn't hurt anyone. It is because it promotes or signifies the sexual objectification of children. That is the issue to me.

I don't know, I guess I should drop it at this point because any and all rational points have pretty much been made. So I guess that is exactly what I will do. Being told to turn off my internet and phone because it exists is irrational. Thats first life and there isn't much I can do about it. Second life, I guess, I thought maybe I could. I was apparently very wrong.

So, we will agree to disagree.

Edited to add the following:
Thank you Robin, after stepping away and thinking about it for awhile, thats really as good of a stance as LL can take without dictating morality to its customers. For the record, I don't think anyone dictating morality is good either. I appreciate your timely response and for you taking the time to explain LL's stance.

You are right, this is a very tough issue.

Thanks,
Jess

You'd tolerate it...nice...need more people like you in the world





Yes I'm extremely intolerent of anyone who's views of sexuality includes children...



Edited to clean up broken quote.

I'm all for roleplay between consenting adults. The original poster posed the question in a much different light and then went on to say they also enjoy literature that depicts grown men with boys and that they think it's romantic.

I'm sorry that notion is not romantic and anyone that would defend such a thing has a screw loose. This isn't anal sex, tie m up. you play cop and I'll play bad girl, or lets play doctor. This particular fantasy is the act of pretending you are a child and or someone else is a child and having sex....you can slice it and dice it any way you please and you can think me ignorant or intolerent....but the plain fact is its fucking sick and anyone that wants to have sex with someone pretending to be a child has problems.

I have a very healthy sexual attitude but never when it concerns children.

posted by Zoe Rosencrans

i'm seriously leaving this forum...]

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Good!