a Newbie with a Kid avvie

But then, you suggest we treat different actions differently based on their "level of illegality"? Is there such a thing as a level of illegality? And who sets it?

I find that (all IRL) someone being killed is worse than a child getting sexually abused ; that's just my oppinion and I understand well people who would think the contrary.
So if it wasn't just me and if I adhered to your view, shooting AV with guns would surelly be banned from SL because it depict the "most illegal" act imo.

Actually simulated child porn is quite legal unfortunately. In 1996 the Supreme Court struck down a virtual pornography law stating that drawings and depictions that did not include real children cannot be considered and that it abridged the first amendment right to free speech.

Originally posted by Issarlk Chatnoir:
“But then, you suggest we treat different actions differently based on their "level of illegality"? Is there such a thing as a level of illegality? And who sets it? “


No I think that’s exactly why we should consider both the illegality AND the offensiveness, because its not possible to judge on illegality alone without effecting numerous other acts that aren’t offensive to people at all, or at least not in the way child-AV-sex is considered offensive. Sure, there will always be some people who don’t like the shooting in SL for example, but I think a lot of things people “dislike” should in no way be banned from SL, even if the RL act should be illegal.
I think for almost everything the first answer should be acceptance, live and let live. BUT with few exeptions, exeptions of things that are just too offensive to be tolerated. Like racism, facism, anti-gay sentiments, serious personal griefing.
I think child-AV-sex should be also on that list.

Originally posted by Issarlk Chatnoir:
“I find that (all IRL) someone being killed is worse than a child getting sexually abused ; that's just my oppinion and I understand well people who would think the contrary.
So if it wasn't just me and if I adhered to your view, shooting AV with guns would surelly be banned from SL because it depict the "most illegal" act imo.”


Six years ago my stephson was coming at an age in wich he started to be interested in movies and games with some violent content. At first I was very worried and protective about that towards him. But gradually, I learned that theres very little I could do to control what he sees or does (for example, I cannot set a different policy towards him as his mother is, if she allows him to play Duke Nukem, then really, I cannot go against that because in this case the relationship between me and her is far more important for his life and well-being than him watching a movie I don’t want him to see). Over the years however, ive experienced that hes NOT turning into some little maniac because of his love for shooters (hes 14 now and currently very fond of Counterstrike) so I learned not to worry so much about it. I learned to trust his character and the fact that hes a reasonable kid who very well knows right from wrong.

When thinking about this, I think that somehow our minds do go surprisingly well around the simulated violence and death people experience everyday in movies and computergames. I cannot explain that, but I see it happen. Maybe it has something to do with the nature of the emotions involved. I think that the feelings experienced when watching a movie or playing a shooter are in no way even close to what someone would experience when actually committing the same act IRL. The emotions involved in watching movies or playing computergames tend to get “romantasized”. We seem very well to be able to experience stories wich deal with death and violence as only very exciting and great fun, with its “virtual” experience completely unlinked from the bloodthirst, rage, and sadism that probably would be involved in the RL-experience.
What im trying to say is that I think theres an essential difference in how we cope with different simulated situations. I think that, while we can deal very well with simulated violence, simulated sex with children for most of us, is just too fucking close to the bone.

So yes, IRL murder would be evenly horrible or more horrible than child-molesting, but in SL however, its not. Simulated violence differs greatly from real violence, simulated sex however, tends to cause much more the same reaction as RL sex. That’s why we don’t let children watch porn while we do allow them to watch Schwarzeneggermovies. It’s the same argument there. We can deal with simulated violence, but were not so good in dealing with simulated sex.
I think that’s why violence in SL is not offensive to many people, while child-AV-sex is extremely offensive. Theres no distance we can put between “it” and us.

I think its too much to ask from people that they accept this kind of behaviour. Maybe if I know its there but I don’t see it, any of it, ever, that I can, but then you might as well ban it and let people take it back to their private homes and relationships. In no way it should be allowed in public.

I wonder how you guys feel about this.

Its not in public and I don't do it anyway. I have never approached someone for sim-sex at all, not in any avvie shape. Nor do I plan to. I respond to people of the opposing factor, but it seems like they just want to fill the world up with more of their views.

Curiosity killed the cat, and that's what I get for asking a question. I thought SL was a rather open-minded place, but I suppose the SL forums are not. I never said "accept child-av-sex." Read my other posts and you will see. I dont feel the need to repeat myself.

Will someone who wants to see me dead answer the questions from my previous posts? Or am I right in saying it's all just a front? I find any displays of real life humans in sexual situations to bbe quite revolting, but there is a lot of it in SL.

Teen sex, older men and underage girls, and two females together are dealt with in this same society we are talking about and all of those things I find unromantic and a complete turn-off. Yet everyday we are bombarded by these images that are supposed to make me like this product or that. It sickens me that what I'm hearing is that if I use a front (elf, fox-demon, cherub) then its okay. Its a front, an excuse for you "opposers" to wanting my "child-like" avvie.

It amuses me to try out sex animations when there is no one around, I find it funny. I am an animator in real fact and its funny to see how a "throwing up" animation can be converted into a "taking it" animation just by suggesting another 3D model be put behind it. In fact I find SL to be a bit too realistic for my tastes. Draw it and I'll bite... otherwise no. Sick and twisted belongs to those who need lies to cover up their own sexual wants.

Really Zoe, its not “just” a front. Fronts are about things and while I often find them very hypocrite, I don’t feel that way about this one. Simulated sexual acts with children are so offensive that I think when you want to do stuff like that you should keep it to yourself, act it out in private, and don’t expect the rest of the world to be not-offended and talk nice to you when youre openly considering exploiting your kid-AV sexually.

If my sexual fantasies were about drowning puppies I wouldn’t be to open about that either. I certainly wouldn’t go to the forums and ask people to have a nice and friendly chitchat with me about how they would feel about me simulating my getting off on killing puppies in SL.
Zoe, I cant decide wether to find you incredibly naïve or just downright stupid, sorry. You ask this in a tone of voice that expect reason only to find out a lot of very reasonable people are not staying so reasonable when its about this subject and by now I think you should GET that.
You sound like someone who desperately wants to be accepted and so you keep throwing in your beliefs in and you get very upset when people not only don’t convert to those beliefs, but actually get very angry about them. You raised this issue in a public forum, now what do you expect from us? While before this thread I more or less knew in the back of my head that there would be some people in-game that would exploit every sexual possibility granted by the sliders, it becomes something very annoying for me when its thrown out in the open and I am basically forced to look into someones sexual preferences for children and form an opinion about it.
You keep saying that this isn’t the intelligent debate you expected from it but I actually think some very intelligent things are said and to me it sounds more like you have a very hard time dealing with the fact that people are not as tolerant towards child-AV-sex as you hoped they would be.

Kaera's basically right Zoe. you should have given this up about 20 pages ago. the best you're going to get out of this is people thinking you're naive and out for attention. more likely you're going to be branded as a supporter of pedophiles because you won't shut up about this. so you're not one? so you say you don't even really prostitute your child av? so why are you still defending whatever position you have?

if you're into something that the majority of people think is disgusting and wrong then don't be surprised if you get some flak when you bring it up. is it similar to other forms of acceptable sexuality? in some ways. should people understand the difference between sl fantasy and reality? maybe in the magical kingdom of sharing and joy they should. but in the real world you got to know this rule: no one can get upset about something you don't tell them.

so bottomline: child av sex is a bad thing. if you don't endorse it then stop arguing with the other people who don't endorse it. whatever your original question was there's not much hope people will read 22 pages of juvenile yes-it-is-no-it-isn't to find out. and i can pretty much tell you from reading your posts, whatever your point was it's wrong.

I gave up on reading this whole thing at page 5...

That said, Zoe... anyone who is turned on in any way by a kid, including a kiddie AV needs to get some help. I hope there is a good therapist in your area because attitudes like yours can lead to no good whatsoever and might just hurt a kid somewhere along the way.

Please do not think this is an attack, I seriously hope and pray that you will realize that you have a problem and will get the help you need.

i dont think you should reply if you havent read the thread and i dont think you read the first five pages, maybe the first five paragraphs but not pages.

second page. i said goodbye on the SECOND page. i said "thank you for your views, i have obtained my url link and fresh perspective on how people feel about this potenial situation in SL and i'm leaving."

i have not been carrying this conversation. i have not been arguing for or against.

do not direct your comments toward me unless you have informed yourself of current events. i'm not stupid, maybe naive, but at least i read every word. i wanted to know, and to know i must ask.

i gave up on this 3 times but personal attacks have brought me back to defend myself, not a position or an ideal. tell everyone else to stop responding to it and it will go to bottom of the pile, never to resurface, just like the repressed desires of your world.

Ooh, where can I get those?

This ain't getting burried.....

You've got to let the 'noobs' know what they're getting into!

Mr Innocent here didn't know thats what all those cute child avies where all about. So I'm just going to neg rate any of them I come across.

OH WHY DID I READ THE FORUMS!!!? IGNORANCE IS BLISS..I DIDN'T WANT TO KNOW THIS!

A couple of commentaries here:

a) Although the age of consent in Germany is give as 16, sexual relations bewteen minors are perfectly legal. This can be read in the Advice Column of any teenie magazine here. Only if one of the partners is above the age of consent, and the other below, is there a legal problem. Rightly so, in my opinion. There ARE sick pedophiles out there, who are in fact extremely dangerous, not only because of the sex aspect, but because they brutalize their victims, often killing them to avoid the Moral Consequences.

b) The countries with age of consent of 13 are probably in the same boat as Japan, where there was no age of consent, but it was forced on them by threatened trade embargos by primarily the USA if they didn't impose one. The sickness "pedophilia" does not exist in these countries, sex is something two people do that are willing and able, apparently. I spoke to a japanese person in SL, and they feel that this law has made sex a sickness, instead of the fun that God intended it to be... Maybe these societies, like Hawaii originally, are still in the Garden od Eden?

A pedophile is not a bad person in ALL societies, a SICK pedophile is.

The attitude to child sex does seem to be a cultural thing, and not a natural Law, and very different from one country to the next. I can imagine in countries where sex is considered as normal as eating breakfast, they have no problem with sex - no moral issues = no moral consequences. And where it is viewed extremely moralistically, like Saudi Arabia, this would in fact be a Hanging Matter - moral issues = moral consequences, including mental, socila and moral damage to the participants.

I am not interested in child sex, I am in fact not THAT interested in Cyber Sex. I am purely talking on the issue at hand.

But I do feel that SL is an open area, where not only legalese counts, but the sensibilities of the participants and their personal moral standpoints. Since this is a very hot flame point in the forums, it would be an equally hot flame point in SL. And as such, NOT something that should be practised in open areas, anywhere. Join or make a PRIVATE club for that, and do it in private. Even if it is normal in your society, SL is primarily a US society, with all its fantastic pluses, and its minuses. And yes, it IS only a depiction, like murdering someone in SL, or BDSM stuff... But it IS a REAL flame point. And if you behave too far outside the norm, random as this may turn out to be for a non US citizen, you WILL get a hard backlash.

Use your common sense on this. Step TOO FAR outside the prevailing morality and you WILL get moral consequences... in ANY culture. Including SL...

Eeekk! Of all threads to revive...

While I agree with you Ryntha..I still must spank you for awakening this sleeping beast!

/spank!

Simulated (computer created or rendered, AKA Virtual Child Porn) Child Porn Was declared illegal in the early days of John Aschcroft I beleive, but was overturned by the supreme court. The real deal child porn is illegal because the actions that take place are illegal and the images are a representation of a crime. Demand for new content from child porn consumers contributes to more children being victimized. Hence, child porn was not protected under free speech as it had no redeemable value, the victim suffered everythime an image was traded, and it was a record of a crime occuring.

That being said, the supreme court overturned the law prohibiting virtual child porn (porn either in text form, animated, drawn, or manipulated by computer, such as superimposing the face of a child on a porn actress face) because no child was harmed in the creation. The harm to the children was the compelling factor to not grant real child porn protection under the 1st amendment, but the same cannot be true for virtual child porn.

So, there is no grey area here. If an adult (the only ones who can play in the real second life) makes a character that looks 12, advertises herself as a prostitute, cliams her age is 12, and every single adult in game has a tumble with her, there would be absolutly nothing illegal about it in the united states. Even if someone videod and distributed it, it would still be protected speech.

Now if someone lied and was under 18 and engaged in any sexually explicit activity in game either portraying a child or an adult, the only ones who could be held responsible is Lindon for not screening carefully enough to keep minors out. It would have no bearing on the portrayed age of the avatar or the one who engaged in explicit conduct with them (as they correctly reasonably assume all players are adults). The age of the player counts, not the fictional avatar or its portrayed age.

I hope that clears the legal issues up. Morally, that is another thing...

And on a side note, many of the sex acts that people engage in sl are illegal in real life in some states in the union when done between consenting adults.