Rant: About respect of other people's effort and people that can't mind own business.

Interestingly, since I - the most vocal person on this thread - didn't AR Shiryu (and I will need to ask a Linden to confirm this since I've now been both implicated and asked)... the only conclusion I draw is that Shiryu was most likely AR'd by either his competition or by someone he believes is a "friend" but who isn't.



As I previously asked: Who do you trust with your hard work?

[edit: request submitted - /invalid_link.html ]

Wow.

Jade, I dont know you,... but the first week I played this game I searched online for SL designers on every site I could find and identified maybe two or three designers that I thought were good and made excellent quality clothes. You were one of them. You were to me one of the best I could see at that time.

I must say however that your attitude here stinks.

Your argument is completely false, but I guess it's your opinion. The real ugly ugly thing in this post however is that you are not only stating your opinion, you are insulting everyone as you do it. "Fook" this, and "fook" your argument.

I am never going to buy "thing one" from you agin. Ever.



Edit: Apon reflection, some of the language I used here is way too strong and too personal. Apolgies for that, but it does not change my mind about where I am going to spend my lindens.

.

I make all my textures from scratch.

Actually, he started this thread.

oops, wrong again.

without the user created content, there is nothing in SL to play. Second Life is a 3D metaverse meant to mimic the real world. It's main purposes being to model a real world economic system and as a development tool. Sure, there is entertainment value in SL, for some. But going to a comedy club is entertaining and I don't think you'd call that a game.

3 strikes, you're out

Odd that anyone would feel bad about ARing a thief.

I randomly abuse report people selling trademarked items all the time. I don't even know these people. It is nothing personal, I just think that those who try to profit from selling other peoples work cheapen the overall content of SL.

So if anyone wants to blame someone in the future for ARing them for blatant theft, you can just blame me. I can't guarantee it was me, but it might as well be.

I just wanted to say I'm appalled that Shiryu got any heat about this, and from a Linden Lab employee, no less.

People have been selling replicas of real-life cars in SL for a very long time (longer than I've been a resident). There's plenty of other car dealerships besides Shiryu's and mine. There's a precedent of allowing these sales to happen, and it's not as though we're doing this "under the radar" and Linden Lab doesn't know about it. They cannot start pretending it's a third-party or an enforcement issue. There is a history of tacit approval here. Heck, when I pulled my car vendor out of Busy Ben's, Jill Linden personally told me she was sorry to see me go!

I'd chalk this up to yet another case of a new Liaison on a power trip, but officially of course the word of one Liaison equals the word of any. So, collectively I say to every Linden: Shame on you for giving Shiryu a hard time.

This has nothing to do with a "power trip" afaic. This apparently has to do with Linden Lab claiming they want more user content in order to attract more residents. So imo this appears to be more an issue of giving home-grown SL brands a chance to compete in what would be an otherwise unfair market (besides also being illegal). If you've read the entire thread, I believe there is at least one example of how a RL brand can be used to gain an unfair advantage over a relatively unknown SL brand.

I agree that there has been tacit approval and I also believe it continues. Had the Liaison done what we've been led to believe would be done, the logos would have come off more than just the billboards (perhaps the person who submitted the AR did it using the billboard and technically - shades of politicospeak - they only had to respond to it). Yet according to Shiryu, the Linden gave him permission to use those trademarks on his vehicles. I wasn't aware a Linden had that kind of control over RL trademarks!

While I think the market should be leveled, I have to admit it's the inconsistency that bothers me the most. LL now has guidelines in the ToS for other IP infringement. And illegal use of RW IP is just as damaging to the SL economy, so why not include trademarks in the official guidance? At least then we'd all know that if someone has an issue, they should contact the RL company and inform them directly like we're now told to do for copyright infringement.

Do you have any proof of this statement that it's a new Linden on a power trip, other than your inclination to disagree with their course of actions?




Shame on you for blaming Lindens for his stealing of copyrighted work. Had Shiryu properly obtained permission for using the logos in the first place, there would have been no need for Lindens to do a thing at all. But then again since you mention you make car replicas too (and defend Shiryu in using the stolen material), one can only logically presume you use them too.

So shame on your for advocating the theft of copyrighted material.



- Newfie

Can't knock-offs be made under the parody rule, like "Nisson" or "Mazdo"?

I would think that showing the maker names would fall under fair use if and only if they were meant to review / critique / etc the cars or automakers themselves. (Like an Auto magazine, or comparison test drive.)

But the bottom line, as cool as your cars are, you're making money with other peoples' trademarks. Honestly, your stuff is good enough where you don't need the actual names.

I agree, and I think that the folks over at Colt would as well!

(a) I state very clearly in the documentation that it is a historical tribute piece.
(b) I have built the guns in a way that represents them positively.
(c) Firearms are a clear part of US history and representations are broadly used in various formats, especially video gaming, without copyright infringement claimed by Colt.
(d) The m1911 colt .45 was designed nearly 100 years ago. It's de facto public domain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911
While Colt is a current gun manufacturing company, it's not to be confused with the original name of the m1911 model, the Colt. Now, if I were to call my gun a "Remington Colt .45" or something of the sort, your argument might be more valid.

I realize that these are things the average person would not know without research, so no offense taken, panda. (I didn't know these things until I started researching the gun before I made it.)

Edit: I have an m4 rifle coming out soon, and I do not plan to add the "Colt" title to it; even though it shares the historical significance, it would be a much weaker argument than the .45

I actually agree with you, Hiro. I also believe that some of your points can be applied to Shiryu's cars as well.

It's debatable.

Car companies don't share the same nomenclature as the models, nor the extensive history.

In any event... yes, I was just stating both sides of the argument.

I believe the real issue is that the Colt .45 is so pervasive as to be like "kleenex" or "aspirin" - all previously trademarked but lost due to ubiquitous use. Historical tribute doesn't quite work imo because antique firearms tend to cut off around 1898 (and most things attain that status after 100 years according to what I've read). Plus the term "tribute" is contrary to selling something for profit.

I've not seen your model, but I'd venture that if you showed the Colt Manufacturing logo , you'd then be violating the trademark for their manufacturing business by using it on your replica. So in this case simply text labeling it "Colt .45" - which I'm guessing you've done - is almost certainly satisfactory.

btw, I'm not sure the M4 isn't also within the rights of people to recreate. This goes to the issue brought up in one of the articles previously posted which is: if it's a product for the U.S. government and it's development and manufacture are paid for by taxpayers, shouldn't rights go to every U.S. citizen. I tend to think that what can be given to citizens should be given. But there have been rulings to the contrary. I don't like it, but that's the way it goes sometimes.

I wouldn't even call it debatable. Using a manufacturer's brandname and identifying logo on any product for the purpose of associating the product with the original brand is illegal. And I've not seen replica's of 100 year-old vehicles mentioned anywhere; nor have I seen a vehicle outside of the Model-T whose name/design approaches ubiquity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin

"Bayer registered Heroin (meaning 'heroic treatment' from the German word heroisch) as a trademark. From 1898 through to 1910 it was marketed as a non-addictive morphine substitute and cough medicine for children. As with Aspirin, Bayer lost some of its trademark rights to Heroin following World War I."

If you are going to talk about the expired trademarks of Bayer, use the fun one.

Newfie, you have every right to sit here on the forums and tell me to be ashamed of what I've chosen to do in SL. That's all well and good, defend to the death blah blah. Because the bottom line is, you don't have any control over what I do in SL.

The staff, the employees of Linden Lab, they are blessed with that responsibility. And increasingly, with Shiryu and with a lot of other high-profile players, I'm seeing that this responsibility is not being taken seriously at all. Csven called it an inconsistency, but I think with Shiryu's case, the problem goes far deeper than that.

Linden Lab allowed their abuse department to be used as a proxy for some random yahoo with an axe to grind. That's the real issue here. It's not even about trademark violation, much less "copyright" violation. If it were, then we wouldn't even be having this conversation on this forum.

If you people have such a big problem with Shiryu and I selling replicas of real-life cars, why don't you take an afternoon and try building some realistic cars yourself? Maybe you'll turn out to be better than us. Maybe, more likely, you'll discover it's not as easy as it looks. Either way, it would be a lot more productive than sitting around being a hater.

We're talking the difference of literally 13 years, yannow.


Yup. The only logo on it is my own. (See forum avatar)


That's a really interesting perspective on it. Makes you wonder about all the billions we've spent in AIDS / cancer research only for drug companies to make a fortune.

This is actually part of an issue I have with corporations being able to indefinitely defer taxes for overseas operations. It's not uncommon for taxpayer dollars to be used for cooperative research which is then potentially sent by companies to their overseas research facilities and used to create new products. American taxpayer dollars used without maximizing potential return imo.

Just because I argue against copyright theft and trademark violations doesn't mean I'm pro-corporate. There are more than a few laws that could do with some changing imo.

I doublt it love, since copywrite and trademarks are both protected by the same princple. Hence. say HONDA sign is shown in a area what is its advertizing? or or is it stealing? So I think your a little confused what is advertizing and what is stealing......... Well love anytime a TRADE MARK is show its give exposure to that company. What i think is people get jelious of people making things on second life. Do you think people make that much money on second life with these items? On a small scale noway.....Copywrite well is any for of a form or design that is make by (xperson) another person comes around redesgns its and calls its its own. Thats not stealing thats creating a diff art form......... Hence I think youe alittle guilded.

No, as much as I disagree with Cvens's attitude (If not his facts) regarding some of this, you're very much offbase here.

Trademark violations are a very specific thing. Regardless of if you view it as stealing or advertising. 'Cause, when it comes right down to it, it doens't matter how you view it. Your view does not define law. Case law on trademarks are very, very specific: You must defend your trademark or loose it. Period. It doesn't matter if the use is effectivly free advertising or not, you must defend it.

No, Csven's points were all quite valid. I think you are genuinely misinformed on the important differences between trademark and copyright. Having spoken personally, and at great length, with a seasoned IP attorney on these very subjects, what we're talking about here is trademark infringement and brand dillution. Trademarks (brands) must be policed by their holders, or their holders may risk loss of exclusive right to their trademarks. Day care centers are shut down by Disney for painting Disney characters on their walls because Disney cannot afford to lose its trademarks. Disney is not interested in this "advertising."

(Note that it is copyright, as in the right to copy, not "copywrite." It would be wise to acknowledge this basic distinction before you tell others that they are ignorant and misinformed on the subject at hand.)

cereal, for a smart guy, you're certainly missing the point. It goes beyond you and shiryu, and beyond cars or any particular type of product. It certainly has nothing to do with product quality or time invested. It comes down to whether or not people in SL respect the right of a company or person to choose how their brand is used.

There are valid legal and moral questions here. People are SELLING things by leveraging brands built and OWNED by others.

People dance around this with all sorts of justifications ("look at all the others doing it", etc), but the fact is, there are brands that someone or some company spent time and money creating, building, protecting... and they have the right to decide how their brand is used. We're not talking about journalistic usage or fan sites here... we're talking about for-profit replicas.

but whatever... people will make their own moral decisions... they always have, always will. The repurcussions won't be too major i bet, probably just a C&D letter for the violator, and maybe a long-running but winnable lawsuit for Linden Lab... but that too isn't the point...

But isn't that the whole point, Forseti? How do we know Shiryu has made any money off of this? Or Cereal? Or anyone?

If people were paying him in real currency, I would agree.

Until then, Linden Dollars are like ratings (or the intended use of ratings). A way to show appreciation in a play economy, or perhaps a way to gauge success. Until LL implicitly treats Linden Dollars with the same security as real currency, or I can take legal action for lost revenue due to a database problem, etc., I just don't see it.

I am not saying that this is the reality of the situation, just that our gutteral assumptions seem to scream out GOM, without any true basis.

We can certainly not project our assumptions of revenue onto somebody's tax return.

Until Shiryu makes a real Toyota Supra, complete with logo and all, I will chalk this up to painting a picture of one, carving one out of soap, or even describing one in a lurid Toyota Supra trash novella...

and then playing car salesman with play money.

Not only is going back to the "Is the L$ a currency" debate a cop-out, panda, but it's irrelevant whether or not someone makes money off of a trademark. I think people simply mention the "make money" aspect to reinforce that one person is benefiting from another person's work.

Am I, Forseti?

Maybe there are trademark issues with SL's current content economy. Maybe that would be a fascinating topic for another time, and another thread. Because right now, I'm looking at these events that transpired with Shiryu, and I'm seeing two things:

- A petty dispute, real or imagined, between Shiryu and some other residents that resulted in his being maliciously "reported"...
- Some boneheaded handling of that "report" by Linden Lab's abuse team.

That's the real issue here. So maybe Shiryu is profiting unfairly off of Toyota's hard work and maybe President Fujio Cho and his six daughters will go hungry tonight. Okay. The real question is, why do you care enough to report him? What's the real friction here? Where's the beef? Is it because he's a SL success story while all the rest of you do is go clubbing and money-treeing or not even logging on at all?

This is politics, but it's certainly not law.