Rant: About respect of other people's effort and people that can't mind own business.

So, by the same token, since you're not Shiryu, neither have you the right to speak?

Oh! I've got no dog in this hunt, but I've got something to say! Hear me! Just give me a minute to pull my pants down and squat...

You suppose much.

Actually, I have pretty much no opinion about the abuse report itself - I neither support the notion nor condem it; each person must make their own descision about what to report.

Next false supposition?



Ignorant is debateable, but they absolutely were not irresponsible.



Yes, and believe me, this bothers me deeply - LL is thumbing its nose at not only law but it's own policies, and I will be attempting to obtain a statement regarding this from Robin or Phil. I'd like to know where exactly they stand; They have sided with the IP owner in the past, I would like to think they would continue to do so.



Your right. Except it's not a fantasy.



Then come up with your own designs, or at least file the serial numbers off existing ones - Branding them with RL trademarks is disrespectful and illegal.



Yes, but you didn't design those cars.



Frankly, you assume much if you think you personally have any ability to "bother" me. Some of LL's descisions here bother me, you, however, I just find annoyingly offensive in your blatant and almost celabratory ignorance of the law.

Happily, quite wrong.

So if you're not bothered, why are you still here? Is this the local custom? I sure am seeing that the most cool-headed, least-bothered people here are the ones posting the most, and the most vocally.

You can tell me that it's "Linden Lab's decision" that's bothering you, but that's just a copout. What do you care if our work has been given Linden Lab's blessing? Why don't you join in? What's stopping you? "It's illegal"? That's just a copout too. We've already established that using RL brand names in SL is not consequential enough to matter. Maybe you deny that reality, but I refuse to be raked over the coals just because you decided to role-play.

So you're upset because you can't beat us, but you refuse to join us, and somehow this is anyone's fault but yours?

I'm getting a touch of paranoia here. I'm not sure anyone posting is actually intent on "beating you." What I'm seeing is someone throwing a tantrum and several others remarking on the validity of the tantrum. Nothing more. If it pleases you to elevate the discussion to some epic battle of good versus evil, intrigue and suspense, then feel free to do so. I'll just be in the kitchen popping some corn.

I don't disagree with you and panda... a little calm, a little humor, and a little perspective is good here! Thank you panda for always making me smile.

I doubt that SL is wound too tight. Most people in SL probably don't care a hoot about this issue. We're having an intellectual and legal debate on IP issues in SL (well, cereal's taking it a little too personally, but c'est la vie... he does have a vested interest I guess... he's put an awful lot of work into those cars).

I agree that it doesn't need to be taken to the Nth degree... searching databases and the like. I also agree that a lot of small businesses don't bother with too much trademark concerns -- but the ones with big visions and longevity do. The ones who are involved in creative fields like design especially do! Not a lot of IP issues in rubber bands manufacturing...

My take is ... avoid the big famous brands. Leave "star wars" alone. Don't take a clearly custom texture from Gucci and make clothes out of it. Don't use logos on replica products that you are selling.

If you do those basics, you're probably all right. AND -- if you try to be original, no one is going to fault anyone who happens to stumble across some IP conflict.

I enjoy a debate.



Nah.



Respecting the law is just a copout now? Huh. I missed the memo.

Actually what's stopping me is that I don't feel the need to lower myself to breaking the law to enjoy my second life.



Your confusing your opinions with reality again.



Again with this silly "roleplaying" accusation. Is that really the only reason you think I'm against this?

Sorry, I roleplay a fox. My player happens to obey the law.



I already beat you. That's the hillarious part.

I like this quote, because it sums up what happened here, if in a sideways fashion. What happened here though, was that you reported your friend, they didn't recieve an RIAA lawsuit. Until Toyota or Ford or any other company comes in and tells them to knock it off (and I doubt they will since virtual replicas of their products aren't their big moneymakers) why are we so bothered about this?

Actually, I didn't report anyone, but thank's for reminding me to state that outright.

And, what started this thread was that the "RIAA" (LL) DID come knocking on someone's door. Go back and re-read the first few posts. Regardless of what this thread has morphed into.

I care because I don't like seeing people breaking the law.

I was continuing your analogy. I know you didn't report anyone, we won't ever know who did.

I see you keep skirting the issue - attempting to turn this away from the core problem: the use of someone else's intellectual property for personal gain.

And btw, no where in the following do I say it's "too hard":

"I choose to not start an SL business at this time (that's the part where I say "not... sell anything" because the effort to do it in the manner I would choose (detailed earlier) does not currently make sense given the economic environment. It's simple ROI."

Attempting to rephrase my statements in ways that attempt to belittle me (and perhaps others) is a poor attempt at a defense. Please refrain from deliberate misinterpretation (I assume you're capable of understanding the English language) and derogatory terms; I'd rather not change my attitude regarding AR's on your account.



You're five?



Why? If he doesn't bother to get permission from the rightful owners of the IP, why should anyone bother with him? No one owes him anything.



I have a problem with you and anyone who uses trademarks illegally. I'm taking it up with you on this forum.



I'd say that if Michael responds to an AR, he's going to leave his kid gloves over at Shiryu's! Nice job.



I disagree. Such irresponsible actions (in terms a five-year old can understand):

- undermine the SL economy
- are against Linden Lab policy
- are illegal in most western nations
- possibly affects every resident in a worst case scenario.

The last person to be talking about "rights" are those who violate them.

I think intellectual and legal debate is respectable (and if you notice, Forseti is one of the few people who actually stuck to this and kept it objective) which is why I strongly suggested it be discussed in another venue.

My point is that what happened with Shiryu is not an intellectual nor a legal issue, nor is it even a debate. It's personal, it's political and it's petty. If (as I did) you scratch the fragile façade of "intellect" or "law" just a little bit, then you'll see what's really underneath. It's just griefing under a different guise.

Oh? You did, hmm?

Praytell, where did you find it?

I'll try to inject what might be a little good news (or a little bad news, depending on your pov). I've actually gotten the interest of a small lighting manufacturer (not a client) who has asked for more information about the use of their trademark on products in virtual worlds. That actually sounds promising.

And aside from the appliance manufacturer I mentioned earlier (haven't heard back yet - may be out of town), I got word to a designer at another very well-known corporation (the trademark for which is frequently ripped off in SL) that I'd like to take a new product of their's and bring it into SL. Chances are admittedly very slim they'll agree, but part of the deal would be my representing their interests in SL. Assuming that I get their go-ahead, it will bring up all sorts of issues that have til now been avoided. Do I owe it to anyone to give advance warning? Is filing an AR for trademark violations mandatory if the corporation wants to deal directly with an individual? etc.

However, I've not had any luck for months on this front, so I'm not really all that hopeful. But now seems a good time to raise those questions. For me this thread is no longer about Shiryu and Cereal (the latest contortions are getting pretty bad imo), it's about "what do I do if I land this whale"? Comments? Thoughts?

I think contacting someone up-front is always a good idea. If they get nasty or simply don't respond, at that point I think it would be a good idea to file a DMCA notification via the channels prescribed by Linden Lab:

http://secondlife.com/corporate/dmca.php

Its seems a bit narrow minded since you don`t speak for "Said" Company offance ok Unless the "SAID" company steps forwars all such issues people are bitching about are just personthoughts in this matter.

We are not talking about cheap CHINESE badly redesigned or 100% copied objct that happen in real life. But I do understand the thought about defending trade marks and copy writes. BUT AGAIN Unless these company com forward and say " There are problems with Shiyru doing doing this then AGAIN its all it is is people bitching about issues because they have nothing better to do. Maybe thats not nice, but why bother with this issue when we have worse problems that need to be delt with then a player making badly produced object and making very little if anything over it. No offence hun ok I think so people are just takin gthis issue alittle over the edge. ANd what some people are doing is picking on objects other then what is first talked about.

and its continuess

But how do I do that when the abuse is so rampant? I can't scour SL looking for violators to give them a head's up. And most people don't come to the forums - I wouldn't even know where to post it. And keeping track of violators who've been previously warned is extra work. Why should I burden myself with that? What do I owe them?

[edit - thinking this should have a separate thread. I'll start one if/when things look more promising.]

War in Jesse, is it upon us? Post #320 even cooler

There's no question that using trademarks is a violation: that's been established beyond any reasonable debate. There is a reasonable question as to whether Linden Labs can be consistant, fair and effective in enforcing this policy.

If enforcement relies mostly or entirely on user reports, then it behooves each of us to report all instances of trademark abuse. If the policy is not enforced vigorously and consistantly, then the creators who abide by the policy are at a competitive disadvantage to those who flaunt the rules as irrelevant, an attitude displayed unapologetically in this thread.

But as a side note, user enforcement of policy is a sad substitute for substantial in-game presence of the company. It's spotty and prone to abuse. Nothing can take the place of a sizable, active and visible contingent of "gamemasters" (or whatever you want to call them) within the game. Don't rely on your players to do your job for you.

Yep. It's a mess.

Assume for a moment that a competitor goes out AR'ing trademark violations. If it were me, I wouldn't go after the creator at his home/store - I'd AR his customers. Why? Well, if a customer is out the product they have to go get a refund. That could cause a whole host of administrative and accounting issues. That would be imo a real nightmare for the creator.

These issues point to other questions, such as: did LL avoid having Shiryu change the cars for other reasons? How do they actually enforce trademark on products that can materialize with a simple click-drag. I haven't seen LL explain how this is supposed to work. Do they delete the content at it's root? How do they know the violator doesn't have back-ups saved under different names and UUIDs and stored with an alt or a business partner's av? A customer could simply get a replacement (though it'd still be a headache I'd guess).

There's a whole practical level to enforcing Trademarks which hasn't really been touched on in this thread. It's partially why I've asked for specific ToS guidelines regarding this area. At some point I expect someone will be told to remove a product and they'll find ways to avoid... what? a permaban? a suspension?

Maybe LL has been updating the ToS quietly and I need to make regular visits to see if they add details that address these things.

You assume LL would do anything to the customer. I don't think they would.