Feted Inner Core Issue: Your opinion?

Amen. The Lindens have as much claim to be part of the community as anyone else.

I would hate to see misguided sensitivities sequester them in some LL Mount Olympus to watch the community instead of fully participating with it.

I am grossly offended by your all-encompassing agreement, and would like to know who I can call to file a complaint.

Good point to raise. I do think Lindens should not be part of player groups, except in the cases of their own groups, such as the Events Workshop group Robin made and invited others to join.

I'm not sure exactly how that setting land to group thing works, but I do remember that Nexus Nash, after initially setting our land to group (on the private island Andromeda) was then able to quit the group. The technical issues, it seems to me most of the time a Linden could easily join, then quit, after the issue was resolved, similar to the way I give build permission to a friend for him to take a look at a problem on my build. As far as getting updates in the form of group IM's goes, you could just ask a group leader to send you copies of the important ones. Maybe not as much fun for you, or for them, but better for SL in the long run.

The whole push-pull thing here seems to me to be a desire to hold on to the lovely family way things used to be, in beta and beyond. It must have been way cool to interact closely with the devs in all the ways people did back then. (What we would have given in TSO for that!) But I think the game has grown way too much for many of those kinds of things to continue now without fostering appearances of favoritism. There are still plenty of other ways to have that family feeling - I know, cause I do have that feeling.

Thank you for your thoughts on this, Pathfinder.

coco

Sorry, but I disagree strongly.

It's not just an "envy issue" or a conspiracy issue at all.

Check the archives for previous posts on these issues, and here are some of the instances I've experienced first-hand. Pathfinder is correct in stating that the Lindens need to be careful about how they approach any issue dealing with end-users, be it a disciplinary problem and/or a sign of favourtism.

I've watched as one individual who entered the world had two Linden liasons watching his every move even when he wasn't doing anything. I've received the quotes verbatium of "If he does one thing, I'll know about it, I'm watching his ass, and he's outta here."

I've watched as land belonging to individuals who were considered troublesome be removed from their ownership and replaced immediately with a second Linden alt's ownership so that no further "griefing" could occur. This indivudal whose land was taken happened to own the land originally -- yet had it taken from his ownership when it was deemed by the liason to be causing problems with the new and larger land owner.

I've seen and experienced the same disciplinary action taken against two individuals handled differently. One received an immediate warning letter while another received a visit and a request by the Linden not to do such again.

I've watched as certain individuals were permitted to use Linden land for their personal use while others had their builds returned for "encroaching" on Linden property.

I've watched and experienced as words of highly-insulting content were used continually against certain individuals without a warning; while others who used one word of highly-insulting content were warned and banned from SL.

I could continue with other experiences as well, but I will stop here. If you want a listing of those experiences -- visit and search the archves for the word liason.

Linden's are humans, as they get to know the end-users in world, they are bound to develop friendships -- it happens all the time.

It's not only going to happen in SL, but it has happened in EQ, WoW, DAOC, SW, etc. And unless formal guidelines are created, published and enforced by LL, it will continue to happen. Why do I ask that the guidelines for Liasons and other Linden emplooyee's be published? So that every Liason and every Linden will RESPOND TO A SITUATION IN THE SAME MANNER regardless of the individual involved. That would protect not only the users, but also the Liasons from any thought or suggestion of favouritism.

I'm going to answer Cat's comments, only because I think I know what she's trying to say but she may not be wording it correctly.

Bedazzled EARNED the recommendation. All of their work was done by those talented individuals by paying their way -- they paid for the land (sim), they paid for the texture uploads, they paid for the software (and not only that -- but their projects and creations were ORIGINAL, they were not knock-offs of existing copyrighted works) -- and did their project(s) simply for the love of creating something different FOR THE SL COMMUNITY. In other words, there was no "free ride" given by the Linden's for their project to succeed. I believe the Linden's were added only to help support a project of that undertaking.

Cat, that's the way you are -- you are in LOVE with the creation process of original work. Unfortunately, you're an individual and not a group. Some of your creations and projects may not have received the Linden-attention and/or marketing/advertising in-world that other projects have received -- but that's not entirely your fault. Simply continue creating as you always have, and know that many do appreciate your creations.

Sorry to burst your bubble folks, but it has happened previously and it probably will continue to happen in the future unless steps are taken to insure that it does not. It continues to happen in EQ and in WoW with "developers" in various groups of players-- and even if they don't disclose ANY information about the software or game -- the idea of impropriety is there -- and it's going to remain there until it's removed.

Linden's are human, they have feelings and they have judgement calls to make everyday. It's really simple if you outline what can and cannot be done and let everyone know what actions will be taken. If you are aware of the guildlines (as a Linden) and you don't follow them -- then internal to LL actions need to be taken.

By the paragraph above about Bedazzled, please realize that I am in no way, shape or form agreeing with Coco. The "FIC-related" consipracy does not exist. I happen to know that many of the Bedazzled team was not here in Beta. So that blows your one theory right out the window.

How happy will you be when you no longer have Pathfinder's ear? Because that's the road we're headed down with this. Enjoy it while you can because at some point you'll probably get exactly what you ask for.

Clearly, Lynn, we have vastly different interpretations of the word "FIC." I've gone to lengths earlier in this thread to explain that it is simply shorthand for favoritism, favored treatment, the appearance of either, and the dipping into the pool of known-quantity players for all things.

Nowhere in that is the word "conspiracy." Obviously I'm going to have to come up with a new term, useful though the old one was. Maybe "favoritism and/or the appearance of favoritism," though that's pretty unwieldy. (I do have a suspicion, though, that it wouldn't matter what I call it.)

coco

And as I've hoped you've learned, there is a huge difference between EARNING a recommendation and having it given to you because of favourtism.

You owe them an apology for this thread.

No I think it WOULD matter. The problem with FIC is that it is used as a vague and sweeping insult against a varied and ill defined group of people for a wide variety of unfounded wrongdoings.

If you get into specifics, and you show evidence then the people you point fingers at will have to prove you wrong, or accept that you are right. That is a VERY different way of conducting yourself and may actually be beneficial to everybody.

Aside from that quibble above, though, Lynn, I realized I should have added that your ideas about internal policy being clear and as consistent for all players as possible is vital.

Like I said, I'm sure beta was a heck of a lot of fun for all, but that was then and this is now, and with the game apparently growing by leaps and bounds, the policiy reforms you suggest would help tremendously.

The very fact that real life money is involved in so much of SL - and is, in fact, used as a unique selling point by SL - makes all these sorts of favoritism and consistency issues way more important than they would be in any other game or platform. And the bigger the game gets, the more important these issues are going to get.

coco

P.S. Lynn, I wish you and other people would read my posts more carefully.

P.S. Aimee - I never considered the term "FIC" to be a vague and sweeping insult to any group of people. There are others who agree with my assessment on that, by the way.

Whats so incredibly funny about the whole 'FIC' thing is the ignorance of those who tout it so much, the way their defininitions totally don't line up with the facts.

It borders on hilarity.

For instance - how they harken back to beta et. al. when the person harrassed the most as the 'poster child' wasn't even there... hell I wasn't there... (Lynn was but flys under the radar - not to mention she paid through the nose to rent sims to hold her large scale events... )

Most the Lindens around now probably weren't either..

Ya know when the mountain sims went in I was approached for pointers on building the waterfall that is there - before the sims went up. I offered to build it for them... no pay, no nothing, I just thought it would be something cool to make. I was told that although the offer was appreciated, they couldn't do that as it would appear that they were showing favoritsm to a player, and that wouldn't be good.

I would say that they have bent over backwards in the past NOT to show favoritism to any one player or group of players - I'm sure other ppl have similar stories they could share on the matter too..

The whole FIC shtick is wearing thin.. much touting of invented facts and fictional suppositions of things that have never happened.

Siggy.

Perhaps when the day comes that you get it through your head that SL is not a GAME, then you will finally understand why so many disagree with many of your thoughts and ideas.

I do agree with this idea *very* much. I think it would benefit the residents of SL as well as the Lindens.

The point is, everybody has a different definiton of FIC. When a single word has widely varied meanings depending on who is writing it, and who is reading it, then the attempt at communication has failed...the very purpose of writing your post will have failed. Contrast that with the practice of simply stating what you mean in specific terms and with supporting evidence.

This is not a mistake, by the way. The term FIC was coined SPECIFICALLY to give the inventor the freedom to make sweeping statements while enjoying the protection that it's highly subjective and vague nature provided.

person1: "YOU FIC ASSWIPE!"
person2: "I am going to AR you for calling me that!"
person1: "I never SAID that YOU were FIC"
person2: "Touche!"

Cocoanuts,
Then why are you complaining? You contradict yourself in so many ways. I have heard you say countless times, you sometimes feel "left out","unwelcomed" and even "threatend" in Secondlife because of the "FIC".

YET, you state right here you have a nice family feeling in Second Life with out worry of the Lindens or FIC.

Which one is it Cocoanuts, it cant go both ways. Either it is effecting your experience in Second Life or its not.



Again, contradiction.

First you claim that you wish you had this kind of close relationship with the Dev team in another game. Yet it is bad in Second Life and is "Favoritism with in Second Life. Also tell me, who is it that feels this way? I've only heard two people claim it is bad for Second Life, you and Prokofy. Please do not give me your same old line about "all these people in world" who feel it is a bad thing for Second Life. I never once heard anyone voice an opinion about favoritism except for you two. You expect a whole culture to change over how maybe 1-5% of the Second Life population feels?

Personally, I think that is very unfair of you.

The funny thing is, not to long ago I was in world listening to a conversation where some people were plotting how to word something on the forums to "create havok". THis mentality is what I find unfair to the general population. I do not find the fact that LL is very proactive with its developers unfair in the least.

"I offered to build it for them... no pay, no nothing, I just thought it would be something cool to make. I was told that although the offer was appreciated, they couldn't do that as it would appear that they were showing favoritsm to a player, and that wouldn't be good."

Well, I could be wrong about my family-thing-no-longer-working theory. After all, I wasn't here then, but it seems like a pretty good theory.

I wonder, though - that response you got back then, that's the way it should be now. It's not that Lindens and players shouldn't have fun working together. It's just that everyone needs to feel they have an equal chance in this game, and that the real fun isn't just limited to a few, and known after the fact.

The new thing Pathfinder has going - the contest for that build, that Adam and Splash just won - that is the way these things should be handled. I like that, not just because it is an open opportunity equally available to all, but also because it is more fun and exciting for the community to do it that way. That contest reminded me a lot of the old Johnny Lace contests in TSO, as a matter of fact.

coco

Coco, please don't skirt the issue that I've raised.

By the initial post in this thread of favourtism showed by the Linden's to a group of individuals, you OWE them an apology.

You need a spoon to stir shit; unfortunately, we all know there is no spoon.

You know for someone who admonishes group think, you certainly whip out the "other people agree with me" rhetoric when it suits you. You don't get to define what is offensive to someone else, remember. Of course you don't find it offensive, you are not having it levelled at you to discredit your accomplishments (or lack thereof). FIC originated as an insult - it was not a compliment. It was a term used to describe a group of spoiled, privileged insiders who gained unfair advantage and perks. It is dismissive and insulting. It was a wedge Prokofy used over and over again, and you have followed in his footsteps quite blatantly.

I find this thread offensive - it was a thinly veiled attack on a group. The poll was biased (your use of the word reasonably is qualifying fairness - so you set it up where both options allow people to say it is not completely fair). You chose the term FIC because you once again wanted to illustrate some privileged group getting an unfair advantage. Don't backtrack on it now, You easily could have titled the poll "Bank contract work issue" - but you didn't. You knew exactly what the hell you were doing, and alternating between calculating and deer in headlights doesn't suit you.

Nolan is right, your disingenuousness is really obvious, Coco.

Beau, to answer these things one at a time. I didn't have fun rocking any boat in TSO. I don't know what you are talking about. I certainly never do anything designed to "create havoc" on the boards. I may feel strongly about a principle - in this case equal opportunity for all - and work to have it implemented. That's discussion - that's not creating havok, and definitely not creating havoc for the sheer joy of creating havoc.

Of course I feel threatened, etc.! But that doesn't have anything to do with the Lindens. It has to do with the reception I get on the forums, for my ideas. Just look at this thread! Just look at the Jesus on the cross thread. Consider yourself in my place. You would feel unwelcomed, too. But NOT by the Lindens. By a small group of posters on the boards. And I never said anything akin to, "the FIC makes me feel threatened, etc." to my memory.

I have a nice family feeling with the Lindens. Not with individual posters on these forums. If I DIDN'T have a nice family feeling with the Lindens, I wouldn't be working so hard, and taking so much unmitigated, undeserved crap designed to provoke me from some people, to say what I think SL desperately needs to do.

It's interesting, really. Despite too often doing PR and other things the easy (lazy) way, despite making these errors that bring unfavorable attention from other industry forums, and despite having a tendency to cling to the past, I wouldn't be in here kicking if I felt that the Lindens had any animosity towards me, or my ideas, whatsoever - or anyone or their ideas, for that matter.

As I have said many, many times, I have never run across a group so accessible and so willing to consider all points of view. I think this is because (a) they are nice, and (b) they consider the success of SL more important than digging intractably into defending any basically indefensible position. They do listen.

coco

P.S. Beau - yes, I wish the culture to change - but for the good of SL, not just to please me or 5 percent of people personally.

I thought you liked the interactions of the Lindens in world? I wouldn't want them to have to fear contact based on fear of favortism. I would hate for them to be too standoffish.

No, Lynn, I don't owe them an apology.

coco

Ya know, I'm gonna offer the same advice I came to offer myself and others regarding the Erased But Not Forgotten One: There's something slightly neurotic about feeding another's neurosis.

We all have neuroses of one kind or another. We all help each other feed them. But let's not be so bloody blatant about it.

End this.

Because of the turmoil you have created in the forums, Coco, and the fact that you are passing Prokofy's posts onto the forum despite his permanent ban, I feel that you should be permanently banned from the forums as well.

~Ulrika~

Yes, you very much do - you just won't be gracious enough to give one.

But it's fun!

~Ulrika~

"The poll was biased (your use of the word reasonably is qualifying fairness - so you set it up where both options allow people to say it is not completely fair)"

Good point, Cristiano. I worked so hard not to have that biased, too! It just goes to show how easily bias can slip in, and how hard it is to make polls. Well, I'll remember that anyway, Cristiano, thanks.

coco

P.S. "Bank Contract Work Issue" would have been an option, now that you mention it, Cristiano. I still think I would have prefered to go with something more along the lines of "Favoritism Issue," though.