Are we going to stand for this ?

*shrugs.

LL is not taking away 'content' they are taking away a 'gamed and abused system' that doesn't do what it was designed to do.

LL has not made content - we have - they give us the canvas and the structure to hang our world on - this hasn't changed.

I have played and programmed online games since the early 80's and I've seen many many many companies utterly nerf things beyond all hope.

The players DO decide how much the L$ is sold for and bought for - that hasn't changed at all - they've slightly altered how much they are giving away for free - ultimately we still decide our own price.

*Pretends he has some idea what Miss Cottonpie is talking about...*

No, I just sold the Hummer. Problem solved.

That paid my house payment for the next year, allowed me to stock up on gallons of wine (I like to drink wine when posting on the forums and if I am not drinking wine, I am thinking whine), and allowed me to stop depending on dwell for augmenting my multiple sim fees.

*Slaps you with a fish*

Matters not to me if you beleive me or not.
You posted so you had some feelings on the matter even as it wasn't to the case in hand.
But so be it.
As to charging people more that is one of my points.
Why do we want to keep charging people more and more?
So we can sell more and more L$'s at a higher price?
So we can make more money ?
Wheres that good old attitude of giving a good product at a good price?
Not a higher and higher price.
Sheesh is SL just plain and simple capitalizm at its best?
Is it no longer popular to give people something for a fair if not low cost ?
In RL a friend that plays SL said: SL is all about money.
I said you know what I think you're right and 'll be damned If LL isn't going to feed just that point.

Who are you replying to? I don't recall making any of those points...

And what the hell does any of the above reflect on the decision to take away the dwell micropayments?

UImmmm... who said this Siggy ?
The entire post wasn't just for you .... the part about who i was is what i was addressing to you. The rest was simply added in.

Some can't see the forest for the trees

Are we going to stand for this ?

yep...... cause there's not a gosh darn thing we can do about it!

not that i would want to any way cause dwell payment are meaningless to me

Well, that's kind of the POINT though.

There should be a way to have entertainment without having to have sales to support it.

The dwell was a help in that respect.

coco

I am a creator in SL. I have only made losses with land ownership, and I haven't ever made any substantial money from dwell.

I dislike exchanges with alts. Apart from any other consideration, people should declare their interest in a subject before setting a stance. If Will is a big clubowner and benefitting a great deal from camping chairs and ruses to game the dwell system, that would make me wary of his opinion about the subject, because he most definitely would have an axe to grind about it. I can't see any way that an ordinary player would feel like this, because most ordinary players aren't really aware of the dwell system in game.

I hate the way that the dwell system has made clubs, camping chairs and mindless events the most publicised and attended things in SL. I don't like any of those things, and I am hoping that the incentive to run them will vanish once dwell does. It may also kill a lot of the porn clubs, hostess bars and sleazy joints which were only set up to capture it.

If dwell were supporting a lot of interesting and diverse events...if it had encouraged people to run events that people enjoy and want to go to...I could agree that it might have a detrimental effect...but really that isn't the case.

With any luck, this will take it back to things which have real substance, and revert the events list from the yardsale, tringo/slingo/bingo, club sexxxxxy dancer fest it has become. And camping chairs will go! YAY!
Cali

Some folks say that... and I have to ask:

Why? Why "should" there be a way to have entertainment without payment?

I mean, I know we all want the "nice stuff" without having to work for it, but, how would that work? How would the "nice stuff" keep comming without the work?

I would point out that the porn clubs, the yard sales, the Tringo and all that are popular not because their owners are getting traffic.

They are popular because that is what (among other things) people like and people want. That is the entertainment people want (among other types of entertainment).

If you desire to kill these forms of entertainment, you also kill off the population that enjoys it.

Which means fewer people in SL, and fewer people to buy goods.

That's one way of looking at it, anyway.

coco

P.S. Jillian, because entertainment is a different product from, say, houses or clothes that you purchase and keep forever, and use forever. It's just a different dynamic; a different psychology. And nobody buys drinks in SL clubs.

Interesting debate. As a basic account holder, dwell does not have any direct affect on my L$ finanaces.

I have noted elsewher though, that I understand the purpose behind removing dwell, just as I can see the purpose it was originally intended to serve.

It's my belief that they are removing dwell in order to reduce the amount of lindens availabla out there, which ought to have the effect of strengthening the value of a linden, or at least partially stemming the pressure pushing its value down. I also believe they are removing dwell in order to get rid of a policy which they believe is being abused, and not working like it was intended.

Someone tell me how logging in, sitting in a chair and then afk'ing for hours on end improves Second Life?

There are some interesting arguments that removing dwell will hurt some sims which hold events but have no vendors. Such places will have a choice in how to proceed.

They may decide to charge a small amount for their events, in which case they will be pressured into making their events as fun and desired as possible.

They may also have loyal clientel who are willing to donate to support the sim as well, or they may decide to supplant their business with sold items.

Regardless, the rule of the jungle will be played out, and the high quality sims will tend to do well, even if they have to change to do so. The lesser quality sims may not make it. However, the world will not end, and I've little doubt SL will continue past this.

As for arguing under an alt, I can take such an anonymous debater's points as they come, but it adds credibility if I know who it is that is making the argument, and their relationship to the situation at hand. This sort of information allows me to better judge what might be argument from personal interest from an argument of principle.

(For instance, if the removal of dwell were to have the effect of stabilizing the linden, I am hurt, because I buy lindens, and naturally my personal interest in in having a weak linden. Since this is true, I am essentially arguing against my short-term personal interest.)

What LL has done for the common player is created the canvas on which to play. The rest is up to us to create.... it is a player content based game. The whole point is to create. If LL did it all for us, what would be the point beyond chatting and buying stuff?

I don't know or care what the L$ is selling at today, I dont pay any attention to all of that. I didn't want to buy L$ so I create a few things, have a moderate business. I turn no profit and in fact tend to spend what I make on making more or entertaining myself. To me thats the whole point of SL.

However I do understand that my reasons for being here are not the same as someone elses. For a portion of residents the L$ value is important because they are or are hoping to turn a profit and I see nothing wrong with that.

I also think LL has a job to do to and that is to keep this little world running and thats pretty much all they are expected to do. If what someone wants is a game that is constantly changing and the creators are constantly adding new features to, great.... they can go find one. But from the very beginning everyone has always known that SL content is player created. If we want content, we make it.

I for one work for a living. I definetly don't want to (work) ingame. I'd kinda like to ease back for a bit and have some fun myself.Is this not why we game after all ?

Then pay for it. Like you do movies and books and records and... the entertaining stuff other folks worked on to make.

As well i do pay for it. Not sure why you think i don't pay for the game. I for one don't want to pay more and more for it and or (work) just to play a game.

Paying for your land and/or your premium account isn't paying for content.

No - some can't see the point for the erroneous bullshit.

No, that's no reason to think it should somehow be free. There has to be an exchange for entertainment like there is for staple goods. It's value for value or something gets lost.

Venues intending to survive need to make sure they're offering something thier audiences would be willing to plonk down a few L$ for.

You utterly miss my point entirely.

You don't need SALES to support it.

Let me break it down again for you.


Some build content because they like it - not because they get $$$ - this is good, none of these issues will ever worry those people.

There are those who wish to make money, be it linden dollars or USD for their content - they must become more business like and be willing to appeal to people who are willing to pay for their content.

Content

Content can be a texture, an animation, an object, a gadget, or.... entertainment... entertainment IS content.

Now everyone seems to be taking the route of 'pay = I must pay money to participate in this entertainment.. I need to buy a ticket to see a show'

This isn't what I'm saying - I'm saying 'think outside the box - entertainment is content - and good content DESERVES to compensated for the work involved - but you must think outside the box to make that work'

Now heres what *I* personally intend on doing during the next stage of my project.. its no secret that I'll soon be buying an island and moving waterworks to it - I plan on having a substantial portion of that as a public theme park area - a smaller part to showcase my swimming pools and a portion for my personal use.

I fully intend on seeking out entertainment/events/classes that work in with my theme, and paying for them to be held there.. I haven't hammered out figures yet - but for suitable classes I am looking hoping that 2500 L$ for a class a suitable reward for the instructor.. giveaway money for contests doesn't come out of that either. I'm thinking to host a radioshow/party there I would pay around 10k L$.

Again I'll be looking for applicable high quality people for things like this.

SOMEONE has to pay - but I'm banking that if *I* pay I will attract people who will stay - have fun - tell their friends - and of course a few of those people will buy my products, and everyone comes out of the deal happy.

How are you even paying more and more? Dwell never formed part of your agreement with LL. You know that box with the checks and crosses that tells you what each package gets? Well dwell's not in it.

If you have a lifetime agreement, your 10 bucks buys you 512m of tier and some cheap Lindens. They don't seem to be promising that anymore, so if you've joined since then, your $10 buys you that until the end of the period you've paid for, then LL is more than free to offer you a new agreement. If you're a free basic, they even let you access the platform for free and even sling you a few Lindens. I'd like a whole sim too, but I'd expect to have to pay a lot more for that.

Seriously, what is wrong with people? I'm wondering, do you all sit around and bitch and moan because you can't live beyond your means in RL? You might want to watch telly on a plasma, but if your RL income prohibits it, would you feel you were somehow entitled to it by virtue of existing, or would you be realistic and settle for a little portable cathode? Do you look at your neighbour's flashy car and say omg he is so preventing me from happiness? Do you expect everything to be delivered to you without any expenditure of energy on your behalf?

You know what, it's not even a matter of earning in SL being 'work'. I don't see it as some sort of chore. I love building, I like to create things, and when I came to SL I didn't even think about money, I just built my ass off for months for the love of it. I would build f@$k-off big buildings and then pull them down and start again for kicks. Eventually because I was passionate about it, and expended that energy, people noticed enough to start offering me work. Just do what you love, and give your passion the respect it deserves, and the money will sort itself out eventually. That goes for RL too.

I can guarantee you, if LL made all the content they'd be charging you a lot more than we do, and it wouldn't be anywhere near as diverse or interesting.

Dwell is a pittance. A few donations in a tip jar, and you've replaced it. If I saw something good, I'd think nothing of dropping 100 Lindens in a tip jar, regardless of the health of my L$ balance, in the same way I think nothing of paying to rate something ot someone. I haven't met anyone in SL who's doing at all ok who doesn't mind spreading the love a bit. Everyone I know seems to appreciate what SL has given them, and likes to give back. And if you were paying attention, there's been a few older successful residents that are offering to sponsor you if you are providing something that draws people, in return for exposure and the like.

I love SL's economy. With a mix of nous, passion, energy, talent and luck you actually can afford entertainment beyond what your RL wallet can provide.

In terms of living a dream, you can purchase a virtual one in SL far cheaper than you ever could RL. I can assure you, I'm not living on 8192m of waterfront in RL.

Well... I dunno that it is as straightforward as that. Tringo I might give you as people do genuinely enjoy playing and get addicted. The rest I am not so sure about. The owners have had a financial incentive to get people into the clubs and onto their land, and have employed various methods to do that, including the ubiquitous camping chairs, grouping people before they have got off the orientation islands, and flooding the events list.

When you first come into SL, it is jolly confusing. A lot of people just follow the dots, and visit the places where there are a lot of people apparently. They are often disappointed to find a lot of afk avatars in camping chairs. Lots go to clubs as a way of meeting people, because the other events, like new resident and mentor events, have dropped off except in specific places like Teazers and the Shelter. When I first came into SL there were about 100 sims, 10,000 residents and SL Basics, Scripting basics, building basics every day and sometimes several times a day. Now you have to wade through an awful lot of club events and yard sales to find that sort of thing.


I don't think that they are popular becase they are what people like and want. Some people like and want them true. And for them, I don't desire to kill them off, not at all. But hardly anyone I know in SL likes the "be the best in black/red/wet t-shirt" type of event. There has to be some balance.

At present the dwell system is supporting the lower common denominator, and it has grown over the past year until it has overwhelmed everything else. People don't bother with the events list any more because it is full of the same old events...and so people running different events struggle to get more than a handful of friends to their events.

Surprisingly, I would like people to come to the events I run, not because I want to score on dwell or sales, but because I like running events and like meeting new people. Maybe there has to be a new way of organising things. But I don't think a system which supports one type of activity to the exclusion of others is a healthy thing for SL.

People who get to Numbakulla are amazed and love it. That's great. But they are a tiny tiny fraction of the people who are in world. I posted a walkthrough and got one person. I would be quite prepared to believe they were the only ones interested if it weren't for the fact that so many people are knocked over by the place when they get there. I think my free events which don't hope for or need dwell, are being drowned by the best bum competitions. I'm not saying best bum competitions are wrong, or that people shouldn't be able to have them...but they shouldn't be the ONLY thing on offer.



Maybe it does mean fewer people. Maybe it means the same people have to use their ingenuity to develop ways of creating things that people may pay for. Maybe linking everything to money and paying is going to be a bad thing...but I run events without worrying about the dwell or what I might gain from it - other than meeting great people - and I know I am not the only one. Maybe that sort of event will gain ground.
Cali

To all people saying LL runs a business to make money - I wish! If that was true, we would get better customer service, paid employees doing the current volunteer's work and more focused product development. It's Linden Lab - they run a lab, not a business, and we are the lab rats