SL Forums: Whose Culture is it Anyway?

Thats a pretty good summary Fade - although not just around the living room, Pubs (a public house as opposed to a bar) have the same lax atmosphere.

We went over the same discussion at the News station here with some blokes who were doing a story for channel 9. Our producer asked what the difference was between Australian TV and American TV and one said quick as a flash 'After 9pm you can say 'fuck' after 11pm we can show you the bits involved and on SBS they'll show you what it means'

I laughed - because it was so true

(for others - SBS is the 'foreign' station broadcasting mainly european content and was oft refered to as the 'the soft porn channel')

OMG that is so true.

I was not making a statement about what the U.S. allows or doesn't allow when it comes to speech, nor what it considers obscene. It's pretty obvious that there is very little that US courts any longer consider obscene; they have made the term all but obsolete.

I was making a comment regarding reality. Linden Lab is a United States corporation. That means that its operations are likely going to be based upon United States concepts... because if they are challenged it will be according to United States law. They're not an Australian company, a German company or a Transylvanian company. If Linden Lab was based in England, chances are it would operate somewhat differently than it operates here and it would be governed by English law and principles. So its software, legal license, and forums are going to understandably tend to be regulated by the laws and generally accepted social moors of the United States... not by laws and traditions of some other country.

US Television Ratings

PG - Parental Guidance Suggested
This program contains material that parents may find unsuitable for younger children. Many parents may want to watch it with their younger children. The theme itself may call for parental guidance and/or the program contains one or more of the following: moderate violence (V), some sexual situations (S), infrequent coarse language (L), or some suggestive dialogue (D).


http://www.tvguidelines.org/ratings.asp


US Movie Ratings

PG - Parental Guidance Suggested

This is a film which clearly needs to be examined by parents before they let their children attend. The label PG plainly states parents may consider some material unsuitable for their children, but leaves the parent to make the decision. Parents are warned against sending their children, unseen and without inquiry, to PG-rated movies. The theme of a PG-rated film may itself call for parental guidance. There may be some profanity in these films. There may be some violence or brief nudity. However, these elements are not considered so intense as to require that parents be strongly cautioned beyond the suggestion of parental guidance. There is no drug use content in a PG-rated film. The PG rating, suggesting parental guidance, is thus an alert for examination of a film by parents before deciding on its viewing by their children. Obviously such a line is difficult to draw. In our pluralistic society it is not easy to make judgments without incurring some disagreement. As long as parents know they must exercise parental responsibility, the rating serves as a meaningful guide and as a warning.


http://www.mpaa.org/FlmRat_Ratings.asp

Well, I have to admit that at times, when I see people using such language repeatedly (such as a person who uses F* every other sentence), he does strike me as being somewhat mentally deficient, regardless of his base IQ.

However, I don't realistically equate profanity with low intelligence. What I was commenting on was the apparent inability of some folks to speak in normal, respectable language when the occasion requires that they do so... which does strike me as being of low intelligence-- or at the very least totally lacking in self-control.

On the flipside, there are those who are fully capable of controlling their language, but simply refuse to do so and don't give a rat's hiney what other people think. In a way, I consider this to be of lower intelligence because they are apparently failing to perceive that there are times where consideration for others is more important than their personal whims and preferences. If that fact is beyond their perception-- they've missed something somewhere. If their activity is a totally conscious, intentional act, then an argument might be made for being a sociopath or anti-social, both of which are also mental abberations.

If a guy wants to cuss down at the shipping yard, hey, that's his choice. I don't agree with it, but he's fitting in with the social class. When he comes to a public business-oriented bulletin board and conducts himself as if he were still in a shipping yard, that does cause me to question his general mental function.

I don't really understand this. If there's little that US courts consider obscene, then what do they have to fear from US law?

The PG rating for the forums isn't a legal obligation oh behalf of LL is it? It's their choice to make them PG. They're not going to have a legal issue because someone broke their self-imposed rule. It's not really defined by law as much as the standards they wish for. They can decide those standards largely for themselves. I gather, correct me if I'm wrong, that freedom of speech in print is pretty well protected in the US.

I would also argue that they are not only operating in the US, but in fact they are operating in every country someone accesses SL from. They are based in the US, but I doubt all their decisions are based soley on US principles.

Of course it comes back to you Siggy. When you intentionally take steps to tick off other people... such things do have a way of coming back and biting you in the hind end.

You apparently upset Koala, so much so that she crossed a line and got smacked for it. But have you shown any shred of conscience or regret in your part in this? Not that I can see, because you decide in your signature to put an offensive quote from Koala. Now I'm sure you have a very good, logical reason you've prepared for doing so. But it strikes me as nothing more than thumbing your nose and intentionally fanning the flames even higher instead of letting things die down. It should have been aparent to any sensible person that putting a quote from Koala in your sig might not have been the wisest move you could make.

So to be honest... in my book, whatever comes back to you, you've pretty much brought upon yourself. If you want respect, show respect.

Perhaps they just percieve the occassion differently? Have you truly considered what I am saying? I'm saying my idea of normal and respectable greatly differs from others sometimes. What you assume is not what everyone else assumes neccessarily, and that doesn't automatically make them inconsiderate or sub-intelligent.

You view language a certain way. I view it another. I am confident enough of my facility with language to express myself with our without profanity. I was a magazine editor and writer for years, with over 1000 published interviews with international, national and local recording and performing artists. I tend to speak differently in SL, but in RL my spoken sentences can include profanity that would be heard as a machine gun-like staccatto. Self control or a deficiency in communication skills is not a factor, I am not lacking in either of these attributes.

Lesseee... I've tried to put this three different ways so far... LOL.

Linden Lab does not "in fact operate in every country someone accesses SL from". They operate in the United States of America. If I have a business in Pedunk Ohio, and one of my customers calls me from Alaska, that doesn't mean I'm legally operating out of Alaska. It just means that communcations these days are pretty impressive.

When user Ted connects to Second Life servers, he is not magically whisking Linden Lab to Albania. He is using internet communications devices to access a San Francisco USA based client server. That server operates under the laws and legal code of the State of California in the nation of the United States of America. Therefore, Linden Lab is bound by USA laws. They will therefore tend to conduct business according to U.S. concepts. Now if those laws do not specifically apply to what type of language is allowed on the forum or not is irrelevant. BUT, hypothetically, if those laws required specific conduct on internet forums, you can bet your boots Linden Lab would follow those laws to the letter-- and not the laws of England or Australia or Germany. And users in England and Australia and Germany would be bound by those laws as well... or they would be removed from forum access. Therefore, it should be expected that Linden Lab would follow the laws and customs of the country in which it is legally established, no matter what the current topic of conversation.

Linden Lab is still going to be operated by United States concepts, not Australian concepts. And since > 80% of all SL customers are based in the US, then it is logical to assume that the primary thrust of Linden Lab decision is going to be with that demographic in mind (at least at this time).

So when someone way, way back there asked,"What social construct is Linden Lab supposed to follow anyway?"... to me the answer was (and is) pretty obvious.

Ok..here goes..

I think Coco had a point, lost amid her "poor, poor pitful me" ramblings. The forums aren't fair, and LL is biased, and folks do get away with being mean and rude, and folks do gang up. And wow..we have some egos posting here.

It's the way it always is and probably always will be. Doesn't mean it's right and doesn't mean it's fair. But I think it IS true.

I've seen some fairly innocent posts done lately that were ridiculed and the OP teased and insulted, for the sake of the entertainment value of bored forum posters.

I understand this, and lord knows I'm all for anyone getting to say anything they want on the forums. But when one person gets suspended or even warned, while another is tolerated no matter what, it does lend a certain value to the argument that it's not entirely fair. We've seen it since early on in the forums, and if anything, the favoritism has gotten worse.

But that leads us back to it's LL's forums and they can do what they want with them.

Personally, I think they should open them up like the wild west, and let the bodies fall where they may. We supposedly are all grown ups and can judge for ourselves who we want to listen to and believe and who we don't.

I personally think almost anything can be discussed in a calm and constructive way. Even if someone grows passionate about something in the forums, I think others can take a moment to see that passion and respond, not with the intent to cause pain, but with the intent to put forth a viewpoint.

We are our actions, and if our actions are to ridicule and cause hurt, then we are less than we could be.

It's fun to let loose and rant, ramble, make jokes and debate. It shouldn't be fun to try and tear someone to peices just because you disagree. Think about it.

I have absolutely considered what you are saying. And what I am saying in reply is this: No matter what your perceptions (and I'm using 'your' collectively, applying to all of us as individuals), in your home country are of what is obscene and what is not obscene, I think you are also aware of what is considered objectionable in the country in which Linden Lab is based, and in which 80% of its users exist. And if, in the USA, a certain word is considered vulgar, then any human being who has consideration for others would avoid using such a word (especially in a PG forum), the same way that I avoid using terms that I know is considered vulgar in England but are not considered vulgar here.

If I had some English friends over for dinner, despite the fact we are living in the United States and some of their words have absolutely no meaning here... being aware of some of the vulgar terms in England, I would not use them in polite company. I don't think it's too much to expect non-US-based users to exhibit the same consideration in these forums. And if someone lives in Australia and the ways there are different than in the US, they need to realize that they are guests at a U.S.-based company-- and act accordingly.

And I've understood it in each of those three different ways. I just didn't agree.



That doesn't neccessarily mean that what they might transmit (?) to another country might not be subject to different laws in another country, even if the restriction was not on LL but on the end-user. Do an internet search on the words Falun Gung in China and you can count the minutes before the police arrive on one hand. It also doesn't mean that LL only considers US customs and sensibilities when deciding strategies and policies.

If you are selling something to another country, you are operating in that country, regardless of where you are based, and regardless of the media.

Hey David! How you doing?

I fully agree. I do believe that LL could make this board pretty much free of improper activity by simply setting some solid ground rules and not being so wishy washy. I mean, if they are going to have "PG" code, they should enforce PG code... every time someone crosses the line. Word will get out fast enough.

But if they don't do so, I can guarantee one thing, absolute certainty: the forums will suffer as a result. Every intentional obscenity, every troll post, every personal attack just drives one more nail in the "I just stay away from the forums, period" coffin. Every such post earns Linden Lab a bad reputation for allowing such. Every person kicked unfairly drives the point home (as you aptly pointed out) that these forums are not conducted in a fair manner, nor will they be.

It is possible for LL to sponsore a professional, beneficial forum totally devoid of harmful conduct-- if they would just decide to do so. In order to do this, they would need to set down a forum TOS with specific guidelines, and then enforce those guidelines consistently. If they decide to not do so, that is 100% their right-- but they should know there will be consequenses in degradation of quality and loss of forum participants.

I was invited to this forum, or I wouldn't even be posting... because after reading these forums for the past week, I'd pretty much come to the conclusion that by and large, they're not worth posting on. To be truthful, after this week my forum posting activities are going to be majorly curtailed (I'm wasting far too much time here LOL. I figure it will take me about 2 more days to kick the addiction. )

So anyone in SL from another country is merely a 'guest' in the US? For some reason that I can't quite find the words for right now, I find that objectionable. It makes me feel like a second-class citizen.

I wouldn't base my behaviour on this platform on US customs exclusively at all. I'd base it as much as possible on the customs of as many different countries as I could possibly be aware of or consider might exist. You are in essence, asking all of us to be American.

The Australian in me would think that stuck-up, frankly, regardless of how you intend it to appear. The Australian in me would be inclined to tell you where to put your hospitality but your intention may be different to my perception, and I'm sure it is, you strike me as a person who strives to be considerate and polite.

I'll have to answer later. 2:30am here. I seriously need to go to bed. Someone help me pry my bleeding fingers from they keyboard!

Mm. Yes. Just a tad. I'm not anyone's "guest" here, and certainly not in any way in the US.

To be honest the 'all comes back to me' comment was a humorous line, not really funny if you have to explain that though. but yes thats it - I must have upset her...
My hind end is perfectly intact - dunno if I can say the same bout the other though...

Go back and read the thread which you admitted you didn't. You'll not see otherwise because you've already decided that 'it's all my fault'.. But if you take the time to read you'll find nothing but addressing the point from myself and nothing but personal attacks and vitriol from her. 'The Devil Made Me Do It' just doesn't cut it. She entered here to try and stir up shit, and all I asked for was proof.

The thread reads differently and thats how it is.

You can think its some nefarious machiavellian scheme - but you've already told me I don't have the intelligence for such things because I use naughty words.

I have her quote in my sig because it's funny - It's a 'do as I say and not as I do' mentality that I find incredibly amusing. It's that simple. It's been in my sig line longer than this thread has been in existance as well.

You can beleive that or not - makes not one jot of difference to me if yo do or don't - the facts remain there to be read, even if you choose not to read them - or to creatively interperet them.

Also for the topic - in case you missed it - here is the US interpretation of 'PG'

PG - Parental Guidance Suggested
This program contains material that parents may find unsuitable for younger children. Many parents may want to watch it with their younger children. The theme itself may call for parental guidance and/or the program contains one or more of the following: moderate violence (V), some sexual situations (S), infrequent coarse language (L), or some suggestive dialogue (D).

My posts abide by the PG guidlines.

Just for a lark here, WITHOUT using opening up your browser and doing a search.... who can name off 3 words or phrases that would be absolutely fine in the US but you KNOW would be considered absolutely innapropriate in another country?

Referring to your example about having English friends over for dinner .... the premise I see you making is that all of us from wherever we are should be able to know when we're being offensive to someone else.

Take this scenerio though.... A british man visiting the US in a crowded bar with a friend says to him. "I'm going outside for a fag." Another guy standing a few feet away hears the word, spins around and shouts, "What did you just call me?!!" How many times do you think things like that have happened?

(and with that little rambling I'm off to bed, have fun all)

I think we need more Polish culture...City Chicken is sooo gooood

I believe that the laws and traditions of those countries who are our best allies, allies who have put themselves on the line to share a war with us, certainly deserve my respect and my regard.

Your argument continues to confuse mores and laws. "Generally accepted social mores" are not automatically laws in the U.S., and private entities are not necessarily required to keep them.

They may choose to follow any self-imposed guideline for any reason they wish, but they can't be sued if they decide not to do so.

You're missing my whole point. No one is going to get into legal trouble in the U.S., including any kind of lawsuit, for allowing adults to be indecent in a privately owned forum.

The Supreme Court is really, really clear on this. They have to be, because community standards on what is "indecent" (more or less PG and the milder instances of R) vs. "obscene" (more or less the stronger instances of what in this game we call Mature) vary enough from one state to the next that it became vital to carve out a gray zone for protected speech.

Indecent speech is legally protected at the public level, please notice this.

If you're from a conservative state this may include some speech you don't like. Tough. And if a Supreme Court that is moving to the right revisits this issue and tries to start restricting indecent speech in international fora, we'll be the losers when the servers are forced to relocate elsewhere. Something tells me their Republican money lovin' instincts will keep them from going that far.

Just to clear something up here... Cocoa didn't get suspended because the forums are unfair, or because she said they were unfair. She got suspended for falsely and maliciously accusing another resident of Sexual Harrassment to try and garner sympathy. If Siggy accused her of rape or child molestation, I'd fully expect to see him get the boot as well.

LOL now you're being hilarious. See Siggy, this is the MO I speak about. You pull offensive stuff then later deny that you've done so. Noooo, Siggy always uses clean, upstanding PG language. He never attacks or causes problems for anyone. White as the driven snow!

What a pile of hooey.

Since you actually had the gall to gloat over your supposed "victory" over Koala (which I just knew you were not going to be able to resist doing)... I think I'll now exercise that suggested option of MUTE and leave it at that. Although I really don't have to bother, because after reading these forums lately, I have come to realize that this environment really isn't worth my time.

But... since you will without doubt later claim, 'OOOHH! You offend me! Where did I gloat?"... here it is, for permanent record:



*click*

Well, I should have been more clear in that I wasn't talking about Coco in particular. She did go on and on and I very much agree that there wasn't any sexual harrassment going on. I was speaking in general as to what I've seen happen to some folks in the past, while others do get to slide by. There have been some relatively famous cases of it in the forum's past.

However, I do think folks can be pretty damn mean, just for the sake of entertainment, and I'm not into that. It just seems childish and unneeded.

But again, I'm all for the forums being mature and being open to anything anyone wants to say, as long as it's within the ToS.

And Siggy, just like any other person with enough gray matter to compose thougts and construct eloquent speech, reserve the right to call someone else a retard.

Simply on the grounds of common sense.

And food for thought, Coco, got canned, Siggy didn't.

There must have been something that Coco did, i can think of 3 good reasons that would make her a "not gonna miss ya" person. Should read the posts, REALLY.

About Siggy, he's a wonderful debater, he fights the points not the persons, if people get personal about replies... maybe they shouldn't post on the forums at all Chances are if they post something (either dumb or not) Siggy (and hopefully others) will reply. And i hope that the reply makes me choke on my drink. Because the mess and laughs will be worth it xD

I like Siggy's posts because they're not boring, in essence or context. Simple. If i wanted to read good manered text, i'd go finish my TOEFL certification

I could do so without even breaking a sweat. But I'm one of those who does see a somewhat contradictory statement when someone says, "I think it's wrong to use words such as..." Nope. LOL




I think you're exaggerating. I also think it isn't unreasonable to expect most people who speak the english language to be somewhat aware of what is considered vulgarity and what isn't.



To be honest, I'd guess pretty close to none. Stating one is going outside for a fag and calling someone such would be a pretty obvious difference of context.