SL Forums: Whose Culture is it Anyway?

Sorry, that's not even clever.

A fuck thong is a pumpkin...... damn, i thought it was feminine underwear that was real easy to work around, Torley

My thots exactly.

The word "thong" comes up a lot for the Thai people... there is also a famous road called Thong Lo, which, perhaps, is what happens after the "work around".

Wow, how the fuck did I miss this thread?

Fuck knows.

Nice post Torley and you have expanded my horizons.

If aliens ever visit, I'm convinced the first interstellar war will be based on someone using the wrong fork.

kiss kiss kiss

This reminds me of the car ad that had to be pulled recently.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/14125781.htm

Volkswagen removes billboards from 3 cities after complaints

ADRIAN SAINZ
Associated Press

MIAMI - Volkswagen said Friday it will remove billboards in New York, Los Angeles and Miami after receiving complaints that a word used in an advertisement was offensive to Hispanics.

The ad for the new GTI 2006 had a photo of the sports car accompanied by the words "Turbo-Cojones." Cojones, which means testicles in Spanish, has become a casually used term for boldness or guts in English but has never lost its more vulgar connotations in its native language.

A billboard in the Miami neighborhood of Little Havana generated complaints, and the company decided to remove it Wednesday, said Steve Keyes, a Volkswagen spokesman. Volkswagen AG has received no complaints for its billboards in New York and Los Angeles but decided to pull them anyway.

Ana Roca, a professor of Spanish and linguistics at Florida International University, said the English usage of the word "doesn't have the same power it has in Spanish."

"People who are reading it in a Spanish neighborhood, it will have a different effect for them ... because they realize the real connotation," Roca said.

Keyes said the original billboard was not intended to offend anyone. Instead, it was an attempt to convey that the GTI is a "high-performance sports car," he said.

The billboards will be replaced with two ads, with one saying "Here today, gone tamale" and the other "Kick a little gracias."

When people argue for universals, I get the feeling they are talking about general concepts, without any sharp fine details. This allows for a universal to exist in different forms from culture to culture, so long as the essential core remains intact. For instance, the universal wrongness of murder. Most anyone with some standard would say murder, or the taking of life without just cause, is wrong. However, there is obviously disagreement on what constitutes just cause, and hence something may be deemed murder by one group, but not by another. Both would still hold murder to be wrong.



Context provides much of the meaning where vulgarity and potential personal attacks are concerned. If it is to be used in a joking manner, it must be done in the context of a familiarity and good relations between the parties. And even in this case, there is a potential that the person may playfully say something which wounds the other person without meaning to.

It really is best to avoid saying anything which could be interpreted as a personal attack unless you mean it playfully, know the people you are saying it to, and know they will accept it as such.



The core concept of this statement is again very general in nature. It means that just as you would hope others would make every attempt to do right by you, you also make every attempt to do right by them. This includes trying to understand the cultural differences between the other person and yourself, and doing what you can to accomodate those differences for their comfort, even if it's something you wouldn't normally do. You would hope that that person would try to do the same.



Expressions and such do vary very widely, as do cultural practices, and the specifics of cultural interests and values.

I do believe that there are absolute physical and moral truths, and that not all cultures are equal, but rather that they have value based on how close they come to these truths.

That said, there is no such thing as the perfect culture (or I might add, a near-perfect culture), and there is plenty of value in most any culture, and thus it behooves us to avoid the line of thought that our own culture and ways are superior to everybody elses. Such tends to lead to puffed up pride, which brings out the worst in us.

We Americans can be, and often are guilty of this. I know at the very least I am often guilty of this pride. But there is much in our various societies which are lacking and weak, and we can learn from others as well.

Rather, we ought to keep an open mind, and to be willing to consider whatever points could be made by others that disagree with our own stated positions, or practices which may be foreign to us.

Whose cultural mores do you think we should follow?

PG standards.

Can we extend a tolerance to all language provided it is not used as a personal attack?

Sure we can.

Do we have a responsiblity to control our own world using the Ignore key, rather than try to make other people conform to our prejudices?

Absolutly.

What do you think a reasonable definition would be?

Of?

What euphamisms would you find acceptable? Example: f*ck Are words from other cultures which don't carry the same shock value for some Americans and don't bother the source culture OK? Example: bugger.

Nope same rules should apply globally. Since SL is a global market.

Is it alright to use $20 words to call a person a fucktard instead?

Absolutly not.

If the Lindens gave a clear definition or list of what was appropriate language, would you change your posting habits?

You bet I would. But they take the low road so "bugger it"

Ok so the sad thing is, that a million people saw the billboard in miami and thought it was funny, or got it, and did not call in. Maybe even a million spanish speakers saw the bill baord and thought it was funny, or cool, but did not call it in. two called to complain, and the billbaord was yanked.

this is the problem with censorship by moral consensus. I happened to see the billbaord in LA, and well I thought it risque and daring but not horribly offensive. I have always thought spansih was a much more eloquent language to swear in, because the words have such nuances. Cojones is not exactly the same as saying balls, or testicles, it does, even in the original languange have a certain machismo about it. Americans adpted the term, but we di not exactly reinterpret its meaning. So I, and may other see the billboard, we laught and go on about our day. We don't write VW to say "great billboard!" Yet when a few people whine about it, we become subject to the tyranny of the whinger. Thus the moral statndards are not set by the majority who were not bothered by janet jackson't booby, but are set by the realtive handful that complain.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Ultimately part of moral tolerance is turning the other cheek and accepting that the decision of others do not bind you. If someone says f*ck in a post, ignore it and move on. Yes its not the words you would like to hear, but in this forum part of tolerance is accepting that people may not behave exactly as you expect.

If someone says or does sonthing that is offensive in your culture, you may simply advise them of the impact of what they do in terms of your culutre. there is no way I could possibly know, without being told, patting someone on the head is offensive in thai culture. If I then patted torley on the head, he would be horribly rude for calling me an incosiderate ass. However, it would be appropriate for him to explain why it was offensive. the at least if I did it again, he would be justified in calling me an inconsiderate ass.

Part of tolerance is swallowing somethigns you may find offensive simply because the person doing them does not intend to be offensive.

Throwing the conversational ball back to you.

What is your definition of PG and what do you base it on?

If you don't think PG includes the word fuck, how do you reconcile that belief with your quote and post below?



/108/aa/101167/1.html#post994145

Jake, Is Spanish your native language, and if so, from what country. Just curious.

Do you think those belonging to a culture should have more say about whether or not another culture's use of their language or customs is offensive?

Dont ask me what PG is.... I let my kids watch the evil dead movies.

Seriously though, as i see it the PG rating to the forums means you cant post pornographic material, and thats about it.

well



thats how I'd interpret it

Trying to create a set of behavioural standard that works globally can't be done. Here's why:

A couple days ago, I woke up, got dressed in a black T-shirt and black pants, put on my leather hat, and left my house to eat a cheese burger and fries with a coke. Because I drive a standard, at times I had to eat with my left hand, and it was cool so I left my hat on. While I was out, I decided to check out the latest roadster by GM and dropped by a Saturn dealership and a Pontiac dealership to see the Sky and Solstice respectively. When I was finished talking with the sales people, I shook their hands and went home.

Now, that's just a normal day-off for someone in the U.S. But there are some cultures that would be abhorred to read that. At the very least, they would believe my soul would be punished for what I did. At the worst, they would probably try to kill me if they met me in person. And not a single swear was used.

You can't cover all cultures, it's not going to work.

We're all waiting for you to begin.

Addressing the OP:

My background is a mixture of Western and Eastern culture (with Latin overtones). I've lived in the States and in the Philippines.

From my experience, English cuss words don't mean anything when I was in high school and college abroad. My friends and I would actually enunciate them differently to make them sound silly. If I went on a "fucking shit" rant, they'd just roll their eyes and say I'm using american gibberish again.

So when I came back to the States, I was amused when I said "hell" and my cousins all spazzed out on me. Granted they were like 12 years old at the time. Now that we're older, they swear more than I do.

This is from no particular culture I grew up with. Well, maybe just my dad's. But it's rude to me for someone to explain things as if I'm not on the same education level as they are. Like if I ask, what do you mean by ... I find it rude when I meant the question to be conversational not literally define it for me. But that's what the other person does.

What I miss about speaking Tagalog is that it's a pretty frank, simple language. You can use one word to convey a joke, it just depends on how you enunciate it. I was able to joke around with people in the marketplace even though I'm haggling prices and they in turn call me a cheap bastard, but we still respect each other afterwards. And you even wind up being a regular customer.

But here, frankness is interpreted in different ways. And I noticed if I made a direct translation of my thoughts from Tagalog to English, some folks take offense to it saying I'm too blunt or I sound mad but I'm not. I noticed that in other Filipinos too. It's the whole lost in translation thing I guess. I switch from thinking in Tagalog, English, and images all the time. It's always a small miracle when someone finally gets me.

When it came to respect, it's respectful to call people Sir or Ma'm. It's almost an acknowledgement of their higher status. Whereas in the States, most people don't like it (but I'd rather be called ma'm than dude ... it's been done before). I also was taught it's respectful to "mano" your grandfolks. Which is the gesture of taking their hand and bringing it up to your forehead, like kissing the Pope's hand. But when I came back to the States, some of my grandfolks here don't want me to do that or they assumed I'm not accustomed to it. Of course, I have my mom and 25 aunts telling me to do it, and I wind up doing some funky handshake with grandpa cuz we're both struggling. Now I just greet grandpa with a headbutt.

As far as which culture matters, I really don't believe in following one culture over the other. Whether it's the American, Australian, or British standard whatever. It's obvious to me that SL draws in people from all walks of life, from various sectors of the world. If we adhere to the American standard, we're basically saying eff you to the other people who aren't accustomed to it. Then what? Make the forums exclusive so that only people who get the American way can post here? That's, for a lack of a better word, narrow-minded. SL, to me, is about being innovative, about being creative. So why impose pre-existing cultures' mentality here when a new one can be made that embraces it all. The last thing I want in my SL experience is to be inundated with rules from RL that restrict rather than protect. I'm not asking for anarchy. But considering how we're all different from each other, the best thing to do is loosen up and accept it all. And that collective soup of compromise would be the new culture.

I'm not sure if your second question was directed at Jake or everyone but I felt like addressing it anyway so hope you don't mind.

My family originally came over to the US from mexico and some of them still live in primarily spanish speaking communities while others of us have become pretty thoroughly americanized. I see all the time businesses either taking from the mexican culture or trying to target the mexican culture and I have to say if you're going to do that, at least know what the hell you're saying.

Its not that I find it offensive when commercials or businesses completely misuse the spanish language or stereotype the people... more like I find it hysterical and pathetic. It will certainly never sell anything to me and we mock them... we see the commercials and they're a big joke.

Just to take from the commercial you posted about.... "The billboards will be replaced with two ads, with one saying "Here today, gone tamale" and the other "Kick a little gracias."

Kick a little gracias??? This is supposed to sell me a car? It's funny. It's not offensive but it is one of the dumbest marketing ideas a company can come up with. Want to sell a car to a mexican? Start with hiring one to translate for you. ROFL

Absolutely meant for anyone who wanted to jump in. Your post made me snicker. It made me think of the urban legend about marketing the Nova in Mexico. A cautionary tale about doing business in a language you don't speak.

http://www.snopes.com/business/misxlate/nova.asp

Remember that thread a while back where there was cultural dissonance between someone's perception of the US stereotype of black people eating watermelon and Torley's cultural love of watermelon?

Generally, people here don't intend to offend one another (unless they're Flame Warriors). However, in SL (and the forums) we have fewer cues than we do in our first lives about what might offend someone. You often don't know if you're talking to a black person from the American Deep South, or a Thai watermelon spirit. And it's hard, once someone's been unintentionally offended, to back up and undo the damage.

Another interesting aspect of this is SL's own developing culture. You probably wouldn't just open the door of a building and walk in to see what was in there, or peep in the windows, irl. But do you ever do that in SL . . . and does it depend on whether or not someone's home, or whether there are TWO green dots, or whether it's ground level or 700 meters up? Someone I know who was new to SL commented on how strangers would just land and join conversations, and also asked about the polite thing to say or how to go about taking leave when teleporting away or signing off. There are conflicts in SL between people who are used to a certain way of doing things here and new people unfamiliar with the local customs. I think, as interacting in virtual space like this becomes a common part of more people's everyday lives, this will be less of an issue. So what I wonder is . . . how will it affect customs and courtesies in our first lives?

Unfortunately, this only works when those following along, or popping in, exercise tolerance. Joking insults between friends can be reported by third parties, even if both parties involved know it was a joke and take it as such. There are some who either feel it's their moral obligation to save us from ourselves, or they have too much time on their hands and like to cause problems.

This is where tolerance breaks down, in my opinion, and why discussions like these are needed in the first place, but it changes the discussion from 'What cultural mores are commonly acceptable' to 'How generic and without color are we willing to be so that we can't possibly be construed as offensive to anyone, ever.'

I'm not willing to be that robotic, and I certainly hope others in these forums aren't either, even those I frequently disagree with. I don't want to see colorful, passionate, or even inflamed debates and discussions go the way of the do-do to please the ultra-PC or overly-sensative crowd. I don't want this form of self-expression hog-tied by the fear of accidentally offending someone who may be reading.

I view the forums as 'conversational.' I say things here that I would say in a normal, casual conversation with friends and acquaintences. I dread the day when we all have to put on our term-paper speak to post to these forums.

Damn! You just spelled out something I was thinking about this morning.

People from the same cultures often take offense when none was meant because of the missing cues in a text only communication, so it's not surprising that coming from different cultures would make that worse.

Hmmm... Please don't derail the thread with this, but for those of you interested in coco's arguments, she has posted in SLuniverse claiming she has been suspended for her posts in this thread and is expanding on her theme.

http://www.sluniverse.com/forums/Topic7375-1-1.aspx?Update=1

I just realized that I don't know if posting this link is against the TOS. Advise me please if it Torley.

I would also ask that since it is possible that coco cannot respond here, please don't comment on the SLuniverse thread here. In the interests of fair play.

Yes! i agree, remove Coco

On a semi-related note (which seems to be my forte!), I have dear friends in Honduras and visit them frequently. They live in Tegucigalpa, the capital, and I've tagged along on chores and shopping expeditions. One of our frequent stops is to, essentially, the "nicest" department store in the country (similar to Macy's here). As a native English speaker, I always giggle when we go there, for it's name is

Carrion

Not exactly the image I want to conjure when buying perfume or lingerie!

I have similar recollections of friends visiting from Brazil when I was in college a million years ago... there were a number of English words that translated badly into Portuguese (I'm thinking Subaru was one, but my mind is a fog.)

Ultimately, in all situations, I think it's worth pausing to think of who our audience is -- a moment to think how a person is going to feel by our use of a word or words. We can't always expect each other to know our intention, good or bad.

(On a further semi-related note, the other night in Teamspeak, with a number of friends as witness, I succumbed to using the "C" word in describing an arch enemy attending the same in-world wedding as I. I shall never, ever, live this incident down, I fear!)