SL Forums: Whose Culture is it Anyway?

Spurred by the ever popular vulgar language threads...

Second Life is comprised of residents from all over the globe. Second Life's forums are multi-cultural too. So, in areas where the Linden culture (TOS) is not defined, whose cultural rules do we play by?

I've noticed that a number of people think American culture as it is practiced in the Midwest/South is all there is, and all there should be. I specify those regions because America doesn't have one culture. You can say things in New York that will get you stoned in Oklahoma. We don't even have a uniform corporate culture. I work for a major pharmaceutical company and on my first day my boss said cluster-fuck in a meeting.

Some say the forums are PG, but what does that mean? The definition of PG varies within the US depending on media, and is meaningless term outside of the U.S.

Given the above...

Whose cultural mores do you think we should follow?
Can we extend a tolerance to all language provided it is not used as a personal attack? Do we have a responsiblity to control our own world using the Ignore key, rather than try to make other people conform to our prejudices?
What do you think a reasonable definition would be?
What euphamisms would you find acceptable? Example: f*ck Are words from other cultures which don't carry the same shock value for some Americans and don't bother the source culture OK? Example: bugger.
Is it alright to use $20 words to call a person a fucktard instead?
If the Lindens gave a clear definition or list of what was appropriate language, would you change your posting habits?

Feel free to post the cultures that influence your language. It gives context.

NOTE: If you feel that we already have a clear definition in the TOS, or you believe a Linden has made a definative ruling on this issue, please post your sources.

Do you have to ask? The robots, of course.

Apparently it's Siggy's.

coco

I for one welcome our new robotic overlords.



Heh heh.

The SL forums, like the rest of Second Life, are more or less a melting pot of cultural views. This leads, often, to some rather interesting conflicts. Free vendors versus profit barons. Liberals; conservatives. And niche cultures on all sides of the equation.

I think, then, that the only way to survive on the forums is the same way one survives in world -- through tolerance of all of the ideas at play. Otherwise you're bound to get jaded early on. Kinda like me.

Interesting when you think about it.

I'm in a rather "old-fashioned" area of Pennsylvania, where things are still stuck back in the 1950's way of thinking. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad.

Whose cultural mores do you think we should follow?
I think we should follow our own when posting and embrace tolerance when reading.

Can we extend a tolerance to all language provided it is not used as a personal attack?
Yes.

Do we have a responsiblity to control our own world using the Ignore key, rather than try to make other people conform to our prejudices?
Absolutely. This applies to all the stealth crap too. A few swear words bother me much less than people using proper language to be vicious.

What do you think a reasonable definition would be?
Impossible.

What euphamisms would you find acceptable? Example: f*ck Are words from other cultures which don't carry the same shock value for some Americans and don't bother the source culture OK? Example: bugger.
I don't believe in euphamisms anymore than I believe in sugar-free, fat-free ice cream. Intent is what matters in language, not the actual word. Besides, I like short, direct Anglo-Saxon terms.

Is it alright to use $20 words to call a person a fucktard instead?
Depends on the person - OK, just kidding. The swear word and the alternative carry the same meaning.

If the Lindens gave a clear definition or list of what was appropriate language, would you change your posting habits?
Probably, I tend to be pretty law abiding. I would have much fun in the threads such a definition would generate though.

As I understand it, as long as we abide by rules of common courtesy, pretty much anything goes here, right? I've travelled quite a bit around the world, and I've found that it doesn't matter what country I'm in, courtesy is pretty universal.


I think it's called "provinciality" and it's not just the Midwest/South US. Humans are severely limited in how we come to understand other points of view not our own -- whether we live in the Balkans, the Middle East or China, other customs are going to look pretty strange to us, perhaps even scary.

My company is multi-state as well, Surreal, and I can tell you that the cultural gap between Oklahoma and Texas alone can be immense. To someone from LA or NYC, it would seem miniscule.


"PG" is an American ratings convention, yes, but the common interpretation I think is "limited or no vulgar language or nudity". I think it's more of a protective measure against law suits naming the forum owners than it is any prudishness.


Why, MINE of course! Today is "Nude Poster Day", so all of us should be in our birthday skins while we post!


I cuss like a sailor, myself, and I'm not offended by nudity or sex (violence is another matter), so I may not be the best person to ask that. However, it would seem reasonable to me that the board should at least acknowledge the culture in which the forum ownership/management lives.


No, not when a $50 word conveys your meaning more eloquently!


For me: Midwest Protestant upbringing, pseudo-hippie youth and liberal education, heavy involvement in academic interests where provinciality isn't as pronounced. And a combination of allegiance and disgust with the conservative politics of my region. I'm a cultural mutt

Yep its all about me - although I find your fixation a lil creepy. I half expect one day see a RL pic with my Avatar pics over your walls in a mosaic.

Nearly worth posting a new thread 'at what point does it cross from fixation to obsession'.

What culture we have? It´s a worldwide game we have all cultures and none, Eastern, western, Socialist, Capitalist, Rappers, all sorts of stuff, you can pick one of them or create your own, but you can´t change other people culture, it´s a life story.

I'm Australian and I don't read the same offense or intent some people appear to percieve in strong language. I don't even see it as non-PG, or inapproriate in an informal context. It feels odd to stop before I use a profanity, or to @# them out.

"How are you you f@#king c*nt" is something you'd say to your dearest friend here. Profanity is also generally not considered a reflection of intellect, or confined to a 'class'. We're a loud, irreverant, larrikan lot.

As I mentioned in another thread, our latest international tourism campaign is based on the slogan "where the bloody hell are you?", and in some countries, that's not flying, they won't show it on television, whereas we wouldn't think about it, it'd be in any timeslot.

I also don't percieve a personal attack as others seem to, even if it involves profanity or strong language, we love to give each other shit here. "You're a f@#king retard" doesn't come as as offensive or an attack to me, unless it was said to someone with an actual intellectual disability. You could tell me to f@#k off, I wouldn't blink. If someone gave you a hard time here, and you got all sooky about it, we'd think you couldn't take a joke. And no-one is above our scorn.

Well, you ARE a prison colony...

note you didn't say 'penal' colony hehehe.

Funny thing is that folks like myself or Fade tone it way down - but at the end of the day I hope that my posts reflect on who I am and to a large degree I'll type as I talk.

I won't overly use the C bomb, but I will occassionally say 'oh for fucks sake!' in exasperation - because honestly nothing sums it up a perfectly as those words.

If someone is making a mess in world where I'm working I'll ask them to 'clean their shit up' or if they're screwing around when we're working on something to 'get their shit together'.

I don't see that as offensive, nor is it directed at anyone as an attack.

A good 9 times out of 10 the folks that play the 'offended' card are simply avoiding the point you made - they can't say anything about it so instead they'll just be 'offended' by what you said, or say 'ooooh swearing is the bastion of ignorance' or some such rot.

I bet if Einstein hit his thumb with a hammer he'd scream 'fuck' or some local derivative thereof.

These kinds of cultural clashes are not unique to SL, nor are they easy to deal with.

If I listen to my agnostic, ultra-liberal, east-coast sensibilities, then the obvious answer would be to maintain a highly permissive policy where we all allow each other to act according to our own social code. To me that is letting everybody have their cake and eat it to.

But if trying to shape the world according to one's moral code is PART of their moral code, then would I not be imposing my OWN morals on them by insisting on a permissive society?

Two examples spring to mind, the use of vulgarity, and the way we dress. The use of the word "fuck" offends some people enough where the Lindens have restricted its use in-world to mature sims only. But what if, because of one's religious beliefs, they are offended by a woman exposing too much of her face in public (SL public).

As much as people love the idea of an inclusive society in Second Life, some belief systems are mutually exclusive leaving the Lindens no alternative but to play to the dominant demographic. While "majority-rules" leaves a bad taste in the mouths of many people, it's much better than minority-rules when it's impossible to make everybody happy.

As a born and bred South Londoner I would mostly concur with Fade's linguistic standards, but I'm aware that it isn't confined to my particular culture of birth. When I first visited Baltimore and was waiting for the light rail, someone indicated the platform I was waiting on and said "yo, has that shit gone by?" It was obvious that he was asking whether the train in that direction had arrived and thus I responded in the negative without a second thought.

In fact I can't think of a specific word that actually offends me. The attitude behind some words, however, can offend me greatly, and, for instance, innocent words such as "immigrant" in a context indicating prejudicial use will cause much comment on my part.

As I always say, it is people who are offensive, not language. I feel that it is childish and fetishistic to concentrate purely on the latter.

P.S. I'm always amused to hear that the mere use of profanity indicates a limited vocabulary. So-called profanity is simply an extra selection of words. I would be restricting my vocabulary if I didn't use them.

Don't give yourself airs. I'm not fixated on you. You're the most foul-mouthed person around here. That's a fact, and that's your fault.

coco

P.S. The forum culture we actually have is where some people can say pretty much whatever they want, to hell with the rules; while others can get formal warnings for much less.

So that's not really Siggy's fault. It's the Lindens' fault.

Botany Bay may have been a penal colony, but not all of Australia was.
We'd have sent them to the Americas, but we'd already chucked all the religious nuts over there.

Well, for lack of a clear definition, let's pick a culture, then modify away!


I'll start.



SL Forum Culture Archetype: 1990's Internet Economy Corporate Office


- Any verbiage acceptable unless racist, hate speech or used meanly

- Passive aggression listed as insurance-covered disorder

- Colleagues encouraged to date and sleep with each other

- Colleagues encouraged to invest heavily in company stock

- Colleagues encouraged to drink company Koolaid

- Netscape products encouraged over Microsoft products (heh, ah well)

- "Emo" thought to be cutting edge, nascent movement (will THIS last? )

- Broody, ill-tempered visionary geniuses exalted

- Broody, ill-tempered losers often mistaken for visionary geniuses

Fucking A.

I can see where there might be some confusion and grey areas, given that certain things may be deemed acceptable in one culture but not in another.

For myself personally, PG means no use of language or imagery which makes crude or explicit reference to sexual acts or defecation, and that the penis, clit, and female nipples are a no-no on an avatar.

Of course, this standard may not be held by all, and the meanings of terms may differ, so what should be the policy?

It's my opinion that when in a PG area, you ought do avoid doing or saying anything which you know might be deemed imappropriate by others. Of course, you may still end up saying or doing something which might be offenseive, and if someone mentions it to you, then you can apologize and cease that behavior. (One example might be a fur nude without bits, which many would deem to be OK, but some might find offensive unless clothing is worn.)

This is also true to a limited extent in Mature areas. For instance, I was in the sandbox in Lost Furest (Mature), and on two occasions took offense at the actions of others.

One was a male avatar who was 2/3 penis. Having hung around this sandbox a bit, I am aware of the expectations people have there, and while realistic nudes are perfectly fine, there is an expectation that such will be done in a tasteful manner, and not as a crude attempt to shock others.

The other were a couple of female slaves of some sort sitting by the entrance, and wearing attachments actively spamming sexual gestures. There are areas in the immediate area designed for such types of activities. The sandbox is mainly for building, with a touch of socializing and showing off items.

In short, the best way to approach this is to leave control of the standard of behavior/avatars to the sim owners, according to the cultures of the patrons who frequent the spot. And when in a sim area, make every attempt not to offend, according to your best knowledge of the people there.

As a potty mouth myself, it doesn't bother me to read or hear words like fuck or shit in forum posts. I was raised on Long Island, New York, where in many settings, those words are used as syllables, not just words

I think there's a time and place for everything and as such, I don't go to church and say "How the fuck are you?" to the priest. However, I might say it to a like minded friend in the parking lot after church, . I guess the same would apply to how I reply to a thread. If the posts are mostly PG rated, I feel uncomfortable raising the bar and injecting a "fuck" for emphasis, but if someone starts a post with "Listen, fucktards....", I'll respond in kind.

I don't know the answer, Surreal, but I think the questions you've raised are interesting and I'm looking forward to reading how others in the forums think.

Trying to follow any culture's social mores other than one's own is an exercise is futility, since those mores are rarely fully understood by anyone not immersed in that culture. It's also phoney. I don't trust people who are so concerned with what others think they have no 'self.' I would much rather people be just who they are, and say just what they mean, then typing, "Gee, Golly!" when "Ah fuck!" is what they're thinking.

If someone's language offends you, put them on ignore. If you have no tolerance for people expressing themselves in a way you wouldn't choose to, then perhaps a community with a diverse group of people just isn't for you. If I felt so griefed by the way others express themselves, I'd leave the forums rather than sit with my anus puckered all day trying to make others conform to my way of thinking.

Give me a frickin break. Worse than saying all that junk is now acting innocent about it.

You have said horrid things, as direct attacks to specific people, and it just sits there because Jeska won't do anything about most of them

When the TOS is brought up, she just stretches it into an unusual interpretation. Funny, though, that interpretation doesn't apply to other people.

coco

Our fucking own!



There is fuck all anyone could say profanity wise to offend me!



Abso-fucking-lutely! Don't like me swearing? Ignoring me is but two clicks away!



Well, I really don't give a fuck if I offend anyone, really, but no, I absolutely will not pander to someone in a multicultural environment because the word holds different value for them. Respect your culture? No! You fucking respect mine and my right to cuss!



Fuck yeah. But then if you're supposed to adhere to a set of standards, it's their choice whether to run to mommy Linden (AR button for this post is conveniently right fucking THERE on the left, btw!), ignore you or amuse you further by getting all uppity about it.



Fuck no!

Wait. I tell you what. If everyone else does, I will




Like you need to invite people to quote the ToS or the Lindens

Thanks a fucking lot, Lucifer....

I am ALL FOR THAT, Jonquille.

Now - just get rid of that hypocritical crap on the TOS that the Lindens have no intention of forcing, except against those they want to shut up, while letting their pets get by.

MAKE THESE FORUMS MATURE.

Stop the frickin hypocrisy.

coco