SL Forums: Whose Culture is it Anyway?

This one on SecondCitizen too

http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showthread.php?t=1080

Torley, if this does break the ToS, I'll be happy to remove it.

The answer to question 1 is not exactly. Though I grew up in such a way that until I was iun high school I spoke more spanish than english. Now I mostly think in english, except when I am mad then I think in spanish. I prefer to read poetry in spanish, but i like the versatility of english.

The answer to question 2 is of course. The problem I am pointing out is that we are allowing a minority of voices within a culture to speak for the culture. People who aren't bothered by the billboards don't call in. People who are bothered by the billboards do call in. We are living in the tryanny of the squeeky wheel. that was what I was driving at with my thread.

This is a perfect oportunity to seize the topic by the horns.

I live just 2 countries up Honduras, no less than 400 kms, between cities, but, if my latin sense is correct, the word you mentioned starts with C and ends with abrón?

the word cabrón is widely used here in Guatemala, to describe someone who has a fast wit, and incredibly smart.

Say, Enabran Templar pwnd someone on a post, you say in local slang "Que Cabrón es el Sr. Templar", for example.

There's innumerable uses for a single word, such as the one above, and each use in one culture, can have another just kilometers away, i don't think that there's going to be "unoffensive" posts, without people being open minded. you know, with common sense, aware that people behind other monitors might be from another part of the globe maybe?

but that's just my USL$00.02

This is something that has always really bothered me as well. The Squeeky Wheel permiates so many aspects of our every-day lives we probably don't even notice it much anymore.

2 complaints about a server could get them fired, but 50 compliments most likely won't save their jobs or earn them a raise.

Many media outlets are censored by threats to sponsors from offended consumers, but the fact that another 5 million people that also saw the show or ad never called in is never taken into account.

This also happens here in the forums. If 40 people are viewing a thread, and 3 people file ARs... doesn't it stand to reason that up to 37 people read the thread and didn't find it objectionable enough to complain about?

It's a shame that we only tend to speak out in the negative, and that the negative has more influence than the positive.

Where's the button to praise a post on these forums?

Hola Maxx!

Alas, my word began with a "C", ended with a "T", and had two letters inbetween. For me, personally, it is truly the worst, worst word imaginable, to be uttered only under the most dire of circumstances (and even then, it leaves such a coating of slime all over my spirit that it's use is barely worth it!)

Words are powerful things!

Vivi, there's nothing wrong in calling someone a Cast, even if they deserved it

I have noticed I hold myself to this strange double standard. If someone else in a conversation with me uses that dreaded C word for instance... Unless they're actually calling me one, its not going to do more than give me a second's pause. But for some strange reason, I can't use it. It's just a word I know that but to use it makes ME so uncomfortable that I can't even imagine the situation that would make me angry enough. I'm the same way with other words to varying degrees. It's like if you use it eh, I don't really care so much beyond it might make me take you a little less seriously in certain situations. But for ME to use it, well I better have a very good reason in order to get past my own inner prude.

Weird I know.

I blame my mother.

You're not alone. There are many things, including the C word, that don't offend me, but I can't see myself saying.

Glancing at the Police Blotter, I noticed that most of the violations in the past 10 days, have been resolved with suspensions.

Seems LL is finally putting their foot down when it comes to bad actors.

Does that mean half of Hollywood's going to be in the cornfield next week?

Wouldn't that be lovely!

Only if you let them have power.

Coco, I'm actually glad you said this and called an ace an ace. I'll have to honestly say, I found it kind of clownish that certain people regularly use profanity as a shock tool and then when someone finally has the guts to stand up and call them on it, they proclaim innocence or other excuses.

The forum where this originally started, the user in question was inexcusably foul-mouthed as usual, then claimed he was making a "statment about my culture". If that's the case, he must make such cultural statements rather regularly.

I'm glad someone was willing to stand up and say, "You know, you're a foul-mouthed person and we're not stupid enough to swallow your claims".

I don't like to attack people on these forums, but some folks push things to the limit, then try to blame the people who decide "the tolerance stops here". It's kinda like the rapist who blames his victim because she was "dressed too sexy". They shoot off obscenity after obscenity on a PG forum, then act like those who take offense are intolerant bigots? Give us a break.

OK, now that that's covered and I've patted you on the back for actually daring to have a shred of decency... I should out of courtesy reply to the forum theme itself.

Wayfinder, I look forward to your entering this thread. I think you have a lot to offer, especially since your views differ from mine.

However, I don't agree with your characterization of coco's actions. She came with a chip on her shoulder to rant on Siggy. She didn't come to present her views on the subject or join in the discussion. This would have been a great place for her to discuss the ideas, instead she chose to get personal and attack people. Personal attacks are a crystal clear violation of the TOS.

Now, let's get on with the intellectual tussle!!

Hi Surreal. Fancy meeting you here.

Hey, decided to take your invitation. Rather than playing forum pseudo-moderator, I think it best if I just post my personal opinions as response to the main questions asked:

* Which society should the forum follow? Well, I am an American, but I'm also one of those who feel that all humans are equal and related as family. I applaud cultural differences and realize that some of that divserity will be present on these forums... and can benefit these forums.

That said, Linden Lab is a U.S. company, based on U.S. soil, and operates under U.S.law. If they mess up, they will answer to U.S. courts, not Australian or Indonesian. That fact alone stipulates that these forums will by simple reality tend to operate under U.S. social concepts. Now granted, the U.S. itself is diverse enough to cause a glitch in that (I kinda chuckled when you asked me if I was "American" because I "sounded like one". LOL... how does someone exactly "sound" American in this melting-pot culture of ours?). But bottom line, SL is primarily U.S. culture. More than 80% of its residents are U.S. based. And when in Rome...

The ol... "Oh, I'm from Gastralia... that's not obscene.. this is obscene..." just doesn't wash at all.

* What does "PG" mean? I think that's actually pretty clearly defined and well-known. Someone else somewhere pointed out: "no vulgarities, obscenities or attacks on other users" is the general concept of such boards.

* What about obscenities in other languages? Although this is primarily a U.S. operated board, people from other nations do visit these forums. Anyone who intentionally uses an obscenity in any language should have the same consequenses apply as if they'd used American-English obscenities. And using "abbreviations" or closely-spelled "soundalikes" should be considered as the real deal. To give a very mild example, calling someone a "stupid @55" should be considered equal to the actual vernacular. That trick is used by trolls to try to evade forum spelling monitor software or to claim "I didn't use an obscenity! I spelled it 5toopid 5hi7!" ... and they have alternatives for every obscenity in the book. A properly moderated professional forum shouldn't tolerate such childish foolishness.

* Does an established LL "Forum TOS" exist? Not to my knowledge.... at least, I've never seen one.

* Does Linden Lab need to establish more specific rules of forum conduct? I think so, yes. For several reasons. One is to keep certain people from trying to exhibit bad conduct through loopholes not having such provides. I mean, when someone spouts off some things like we read in the thread where you and I first had a discussion about this and LL moderators take no apparent action... kinda makes the whole idea of forum moderation one big joke. Then when they BAN someone for taking offense at the slanderous and lying tactics of another user (I don't know all the details... but I do know the people involved), that just negates in my mind the entire concept of forum honor or moderation.

* Should this board be moderated? Absolutely. This isn't a flamer board. It isn't a lewd joke forum or a general life discussion board (with the exception of one thread area). It is a board dedicated primarily to the operation and promotion of a computer service called Second Life. It is hosted by a multi-million dollar corporation for their customers and as such... is a business forum. People come here to read about modifications to the software, changes to operation, to provide feedback, ask questions, discuss techincal issues etc. They should be able to do so in a relatively professional and mature environment (and I don't mean "mature= sex" I mean "mature=not spoiled brat kiddie antics"... without having to put up with users who seem amazingly unable to control their typing fingers.

Some treat obscene language as if it's some sort of "right" and anyone who disagrees is a stuck-up prude. I take the opposite view: if someone is so mentally-challenged as to be absolutely unable to voice his opinions without resorting to abusive obscenity-- there are plenty of flamer boards on the net. This is a business forum-- and posters here should show a respectful and respectable attitude and conduct themselves with a responsible degree of civility and professionalism.

As I said, these are my feelings and opinions. I belive they are based on factual logic and reasonable business expectations. The fact that many businesses run forums which are a lot more strict than I've described here-- and those forums are gems of information and a wealth of knowledge-- shows that this forum can be conducted as such and be very successful.

I believe that is also evidenced by the fact that there are a number of people who have voiced that they do not use these forums because of the immaturity and troll attitude often present on these boards. That's just plain bad for business and casts Linden Lab itself in a bad light.

How to correct existing problems: I think you stated it well in another thread. Linden Lab should post a "Forum TOS" just like they post an SL TOS and it should be specific as to what activities are allowed and what are not tolerated. They don't have to list every "banned" word. "No obscene language will be tolerated" is specific. "Personal attacks on other users will not be tolerated" is pretty specific, and provides potential abusers with little in the way of "loopholes" to exploit.

Since this is a forum and not someone's private land or sim... they should probably set parameters here to be far more strict than SL itself. This is a public forum that is designed to benefit all SL users. It is well known that less than 10% of SL users visit these forums regularly. At least part of that is due to the perception of vulgar behavior and immaturity shown by posters who believe they can get away with it.

So imo, these forums and SL itself would greatly benefit if LL would post the rules, enforce the rules, bounce those who refuse to honor those rules. There are elements of language and ways of delivering that language that are obviously not PG. And I don't belive anyone here is so intellect-challenged that they're totally unaware of what "PG conduct" means. Still, posting the rules will make sure of that fact and remove any potential "excuses".

[edit: by way of explanation]
3 or 4 times in this post, I used terms such as "childish" or "immature". I do not use these as personal attack against any individual. I use them as descriptions of activity and attitude. The term "mature"--while often used to describe a situation of sexuality- implies that these people are also "adults". I have a policy of treating people in the manner in which they conduct themselves. If they conduct themselves as mature, respectful adults, that's how I view them.

LOL. That actually got a chuckle out of me.



As I said, I don't know the specifics of the attack. I do know that usually Coco has been pretty level headed in other forums where she's commented. I also know that she's not alone in the long list of people who have ranted at Siggy. By way of statement of fact and not personal attack: Siggy has appeared to me to thrive on pushing others to the limit and then declaring complete innocence in the endgame. He pushes rules to the limits and breaks them and frankly doesn't seem to give a hoot about the feelings of others. I have zero respect for such conduct. It's a "passive-abusive" attitude. It appears to be intentional in nature and is very obvious... and not just to Coco. She's by no means a lone target.

I didn't read all the posts here (I admit it I mean... I have my system set on "long list" and I'm still on page 17! LOL). So I don't know what all went on with Coco. Maybe she was out of line... all I read was her first message, which seemed not at all off base considering the circumstances. But I have observed that Siggy just loves to push people's buttons and then make them look like the culprit when they finally react. Without reading all 17 pages of posts... if Coco blew a fuse and burned, I'd take a wild guess that Siggy provided the penny -- either here or elsewhere. But if Coco was banned because she finally had enough and decided to take on Siggy head-to-head, without applauding such I can't bring myself to condemn it either. I've been compelled at times to take on Siggy myself.

But, back to original subject, yeah.. I look forward to this discussion. It's one where both sides of the issue warrant examination and deserve to be heard.

I'm trying desperately to get out of the house tonight *shouts at Ferran to get out of the shower*, so I'm going to get back to the rest of your post when I have the time to answer thoughtfully (tomorrow).

I strongly agree it would be good to have a Forum TOS. I do think that some words should be specifically listed IF they are against the TOS. Just like there was a list of specific words you couldn't say on radio or broadcast TV. Removes any doubt.

OK, out of here. Have a good night everyone.

Precisely because I don't know any of the history of this discussion or the players in it, I find some of what is quoted below to be quite intolerant and I wish to respond.

For the record, "my culture" is one part Utah Mormon and one part northern New England progressive, and it is almost impossible to get any "language" out of me, even if I dropped an anvil on my foot.

That doesn't make it the right way, or the best way, or even "my way" if I find I need to shift gears long enough to listen to another dialect. I listen without giving the person I am listening to the impression I am above them for having a different way of speaking than I do; I am listening because I value my friends and my neighbors. I am listening because they know things I don't know, and will say things I have not heard before.

RL, I live in Houston now, and I don't expect my neighbors to sound as if they were from Provo. I'm glad they don't; I left Utah for a reason.

Can't we put away the flag waving refusal to listen to anyone, but our American selves, long enough to notice the English speaking part of the Internet is international and ought to be?

The people who claim the rules vary from place to place are telling the truth, whether or not they are using that to serve themselves here, I can't know and don't care.

If I thought Second Life was only for Californians I certainly would be the first to bail out and I'd ask all my SL friends (who are in numerous timezones) to go with me.

Food for thought, okay?



Your reference to U.S. law does not wash at all, because the Supreme Court has stated that "indecent" speech is protected, and the text speech in these forums has, from what I've seen, never gone beyond that. It would take something quite stronger to cross over the line to "obscene" and hot tempered potty words don't qualify for that at all. They are merely indecent.

The Supreme Court has stated clearly that adults cannot be required to confine themselves only to expression fit for children, and therefore, indecency remains acceptable free speech.

Linden Labs as a private entity is entitled to set a stricter standard, but given that the game requires 18+ to participate anyway, there certainly is no legal reason for them to ban indecency, though they may have a business reason.

What that business reason is, has become depressingly obvious from what I could manage to read in this thread before I couldn't take it anymore.

The Second Life forums are not a culture, they are a set of message boards provided by a virutal reality simulation company for users of the simulation system to discuss how to use the system with each other, for users to ask questions and offer suggestions to the staff members, for the staff to make announcements to the users, and for the users to advertise products and services to other users.

Whose message boards are they? They belong to Linden Research, Inc.

Is all about me No matter where the convo goes it all comes back to me.

Well I'd suggest going back and reading and seeing what actually happened before making assumptions.

And for the rest of the assesment - all I ask is 'proof please'

OMG what in the heck is this remark about? If your kissing up it might work! But Come on "The Second Life forums are not a culture" HELL hun it is! Its called people from europe,asia, usa chatting and exchanging ideas on how we can make better the game..OMG i don`t know where you live in rl but say there is no culture here is like saying we don`t all breath air.......gesh........

I can see Suzannes point on it though - That its a message board owned by LL for thier product and thus if it has a 'culture' its whats allowed by the company.

There is a definate difference between culture and community - It's refered to as a 'community' by LL themselves - but does it have a culture?

It's a valid point.

I absolutely refuse to say what I am really thinking about this entire exchange.

Suffice it to say that I respectfully suggest, Coco, that you put anyone who offends you on 'ignore' and forget they exist, rather than go on and on about how offended you are.

P2

Sorry Wayfinder, it's not commonly known. People tend to understand PG by whatever PG means on telly in their country. American PG (judging from the US programs we get here) seems to be different from our PG. It would have to be spelt out for me to accurately understand the differences. Till then I err on the side of caution usually.



It's not a matter of a "right" for me, I'm happy enough to adapt beyond my culture, and have done so, nor do I think those who don't appreciate it are "prudes". I can understand someone being offended, if where they are from certain words are usually said with a certain intention. I come from a country where such things are often said in a quite different spirit, and we simply wouldn't percieve them the same way.

We don't have the value, I don't think, that profanity diminishes intelligence or weakens an argument. There is this egalitarian spirit here, I believe, where the intellectuals are very much 'of the people'. Even our politicians play up their colloqualisms, to be seen as "someone you'd have a beer with down the pub". It would no more surprise me to hear a professor curse than a plumber. We'd probably also consider that no-one was above being told to fuck off.

I can certainly state an argument as clearly with profanity as without, but even outside Australia, sometimes a profanity draws a sharp focus. I recall reading in one of the other posts someone being surprised to hear their boss curse, but in the context, it captured the situation more accurately apparently.

I'm afraid if you sat in a room with me and some of my more raucous friends, you might percieve our good-natured jibing of each other rather differently to the spirit we intend it. You might even wonder if we liked each other. What constitutes an attack or offensive here is different. That doesn't mean I'd transfer these expectations to a non-Australian, but I might hope for them to be as tolerant if I appeared belligerant one day as I would try to be of their sensibilities.

If I see bad grammer or poor expression, I don't think, "they're a moron", I think probably English is their second language. Perhaps you could view our use of profanity and blunt-speaking in a similar manner? Not, "they're a moron for cursing", but rather, well maybe that's the way they speak there and it doesn't have quite the same meaning.