Privacy Update? Please?
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Jennyfur Peregrine
Whatever
Join date: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,151
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05-03-2006 09:35
From: Persephone Milk It's kinda of a shame that such an otherwise intelligent and useful conversation about one of the most important issues in Second Life has degenerated into a dozen people arguing with just one. How can we save this? Good point. I shall try not to waste any more cyber-oxygen on said person. Its just that sarcasm and lunch go together so well 
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~Jennyfur~http://jennyfurperegrine.wordpress.com/ http://slcc2007.wordpress.com/ Deadly Nightshade Design Studio (Indigo 86,61) Jennyfur's Designs on SLBoutique
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Persephone Milk
Very Persenickety!
Join date: 7 Oct 2004
Posts: 870
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05-03-2006 09:37
From: Jennyfur Peregrine Good point. I shall try not to waste any more cyber-oxygen on said person. Its just that sarcasm and lunch go together so well  I wasn't directing that at you Jennyfur. I am as guilty as anybody here of engaging in this. I'd just like to see the converation become constructive again. And yes, this thread is a good match for my Taco Bell 
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~ Persephone Milk ~
Please visit my stores on Persenickety Isle Musical Alchemy - Pianos, harps and other musical intruments. Persenickety! - Ladies Eyewear, Jewelry and Clothing Fashions
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Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
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05-03-2006 09:38
From: Ranma Tardis I do not think the "creative" ones do so out of a sense of making second life a better place but to profit for their work. There are a lot of people out there that have made a difference but they are not "creative" ones. I think about the excellent residents that have made my security system. I think about the people who made my scripted animals.
Ranma- 'profit" has no relevance to the issue of privacy. The people that CREATED your security system or CREATED your scripted animals ARE "creative" people. There are plenty of NON-creative types in SecondLife for whom Privacy would be welcome. Couples and small groups of friends or even family in SecondLife, people that met here, or elsewhere that come here to be alone together because they can't be together in RL for whatever reasons. But they can't stop other people from rudely and obliviously intruding when 'guests aren't welcome. Should Linden Labs put up a sign? Something that says "Go somewhere else to be alone with your friends/family/sweetie online. SecondLife isn't for you. Or buy yourself a private sim if you can afford it!" Privacy is something that can be valuable to all of us. There is no need to make this into an epic class struggle between "SecondLife's Self-Serving Creative Elitist Snobs" and "The Normal Folks That Do Things for the Betterment of SecondLife Like Me".
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Persephone Milk
Very Persenickety!
Join date: 7 Oct 2004
Posts: 870
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05-03-2006 09:42
From: Jopsy Pendragon Or buy yourself a private sim if you can afford it! Shhhh ... don't give them any ideas ... omg, I believe can hear the LL creative department furiously building these signs as we speak!
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~ Persephone Milk ~
Please visit my stores on Persenickety Isle Musical Alchemy - Pianos, harps and other musical intruments. Persenickety! - Ladies Eyewear, Jewelry and Clothing Fashions
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Jennyfur Peregrine
Whatever
Join date: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,151
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05-03-2006 09:46
From: Persephone Milk I wasn't directing that at you Jennyfur. I am as guilty as anybody here of engaging in this. I'd just like to see the converation become constructive again. And yes, this thread is a good match for my Taco Bell  Oh I know. I was just reinforcing the point that you are correct that so many important and intelligent discussions on the forums get sidetracked by one or two raving morons. The rest of us, either out of hope of making someone 1% less ignorant (or for the sake of arguing) try to explain logic and reality to people who are convinced that the sky is some abstract shade of a null field minus an octopus. After awhile, when the fun of making sarcastic and witty remarks dies down you just realize that some people were meant to be stupid a$$holes and the universe needs them to make our lives somewhat more amusing. Its a circle of life kind of thing I guess. I fully endorse privacy controls even if I don't 100% need them myself for the sake of Flipper who at anytime has 30 IMs open and well you all saw the screenshot. He will log on for a minute to take care of something and be stuck for 2 -3 hours "catching up with people".
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~Jennyfur~http://jennyfurperegrine.wordpress.com/ http://slcc2007.wordpress.com/ Deadly Nightshade Design Studio (Indigo 86,61) Jennyfur's Designs on SLBoutique
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Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
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05-03-2006 09:47
From: Persephone Milk Shhhh ... don't give them any ideas ... omg, I believe can hear the LL creative department furiously building these signs as we speak! If the sign said: Private Sims... in Quarter and Half Sim sizes too! I would buy 2 quarter sims tonight. One for private, one for public. -- Boy howdy yes I would.
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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05-03-2006 09:49
From: Nolan Nash I do understand it, I think you're exaggerating and exploiting the possibilty to try and fear people into seeing it your way. Also, no matter how many times you repeat it - this is not a small minority who wants this. . Well, lets see what happens. I will let it drop unless "flamed". The way I see it have lost all of the issues so far will probally lose this one as well. I do not explore anymore and I do not fly anymore. Soon there will be no reason for me to log on at all. None Exploring is just too "dangerous" and flying is pointless at best. I have rediscovered FS9. Wonder if I can import my avatar into that? From: Nolan Nash If you didn't mention celebs, then I wasn't speaking to you (see Harris's posts if you don't get it - just because someone says something in a post, especially when they don't reply to a quote by you, doesn't mean they are talking to you). And just because you personally don't view anyone in SL as a celeb doesn't mean there aren't celebs. There are certainly celebs - Anshe, Francis, Prokofy - just to name a few.. The only one I have knowledge of is Anshe. I do not know the others. Well I take the forums as speaking before a group. As the "guildlines" state, the forums are not for private messages. From: Nolan Nash I notice you're going on again about how most people don't "mean a thing" to you. I think that is indicative of your whole problem - you're so aloof that you can't see that other people aren't as dismissive of people, in general, as you are. It is not as you say. I fear I am at a loss of words. It is just that most of the "celebs" to me in Second Life as just faces in the croud. I dont know them and they do not know me. It is not mean or indifference on my part. You have to know someone before you can have feelings one way or another. I do not know them.
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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05-03-2006 09:51
From: Jennyfur Peregrine You apparently miss the entire point of Second Life. Which begs the question why are you here? That is other than to piss off and annoy people with you sheer utter ignorance and irrelevance. Have we ever meet online? Have I ever bothered you online?? I am going to get a refund from NOVA yet!
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Harris Hare
Second Life Resident
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 301
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05-03-2006 09:52
From: Argent Stonecutter If I'm unplugged, I shouldn't show up as being online in my profile, I shouldn't show up as being online to friends, I shouldn't show up as being online on the website. I'm "onworld" in the sense that my avatar's THERE, but I'm not "online" to the IM/email/cellphone/pager side of things. I think I understand our opposing opinions now. You're of the mind that being in SL does not constitute being "Online". That being online simply means that you are willing to receive IMs, show up on the map and such. You are proposing being able to mark yourself "Offline" while remaining in world and in doing so disable IM, not show up on the map, etc. and yet still be able to roam the land. I was of the mind that once you launch the SL viewer, you're going "Online". To me, "Online" meant "In World". Now that I see where you're coming from, I tend to agree although I think the status we have now is confusing enough to need revising. Here's my new proposal: Instead of "Online/Offline" perhaps it should be "Available/Unavailable/Offline".When you first log in, you're set to "Available". Your icon shows up on the map and you may receive IMs and remote item transfers. If you set your status to "Unavailable", you basically "disconnect" from the internal IM system and are dissallowed any remote item transfers. IMs are treated as if you were not even connected to Second Life and forwarded to your email (hopefully not to re-appear next time you log on). This next bit, I'm on the fence about: When set "Unavailable" your greed dot does not appear on the main map. A concession would be that if someone is within visual range of you, then your dot does appear to that person/people. What do you think?
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Persephone Milk
Very Persenickety!
Join date: 7 Oct 2004
Posts: 870
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05-03-2006 09:53
From: Ranma Tardis I do not explore anymore and I do not fly anymore. Soon there will be no reason for me to log on at all. None Exploring is just too "dangerous" and flying is pointless at best. But you said that you are the "happy one." Oh damn, there I go again.
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~ Persephone Milk ~
Please visit my stores on Persenickety Isle Musical Alchemy - Pianos, harps and other musical intruments. Persenickety! - Ladies Eyewear, Jewelry and Clothing Fashions
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Hiro Pendragon
bye bye f0rums!
Join date: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,905
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05-03-2006 09:54
Vote for specific parts of privacy options: /108/e7/104428/1.htmlI will bring the results to the meeting thursday with the Lindens.
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Hiro Pendragon ------------------ http://www.involve3d.com - Involve - Metaverse / Emerging Media Studio
Visit my SL blog: http://secondtense.blogspot.com
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Persephone Milk
Very Persenickety!
Join date: 7 Oct 2004
Posts: 870
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05-03-2006 09:54
From: Jopsy Pendragon If the sign said: Private Sims... in Quarter and Half Sim sizes too! I would buy 2 quarter sims tonight. One for private, one for public. That would be very attractive indeed.
_____________________
~ Persephone Milk ~
Please visit my stores on Persenickety Isle Musical Alchemy - Pianos, harps and other musical intruments. Persenickety! - Ladies Eyewear, Jewelry and Clothing Fashions
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Travis Lambert
White dog, red collar
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,819
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05-03-2006 09:58
From: Ranma Tardis
You said minimized, why most residents should have to worry about another problem just to make a small minority happy. If these people can have their "privacy" without affecting me that is fine. It crosses the line when their "privacy" aids griefers. So sorry but cant you understand this?
[emphasis mine] Ranma - respectfully, I don't share your opinions on the lack of importance of privacy controls within Second Life - however I recognize you are most definately entitled to your opinion. I'd like to point out that: based upon the voting tool, the multitude of forum discussions, and conversations I've had with folks in world... the number of residents hoping for improved privacy controls do not appear to be in the minority. Rather, they appear to be solidly in the majority. I do think its fair to say that there are some differing opinions on the exact form these privacy controls should take. However overwhelmingly, (from my observations at least) the majority of residents would prefer to be able to optionally be online without notifications to their friends list, or be searchable as online in Find.
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------------------ The ShelterThe Shelter is a non-profit recreation center for new residents, and supporters of new residents. Our goal is to provide a positive & supportive social environment for those looking for one in our overwhelming world.
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Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
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05-03-2006 10:03
From: Harris Hare Instead of "Online/Offline" perhaps it should be "Available/Unavailable/Offline".
I like that... but would prefer the state be whatever it was upon logging out, rather than default to available upon connect. From: Harris Hare This next bit, I'm on the fence about:
When set "Unavailable" your greed dot does not appear on the main map. A concession would be that if someone is within visual range of you, then your dot does appear to that person/people.
What do you think?
How about a green X instead of a green dot. Sort of a "Yes, there is a person at this spot, but they're 'unavailable'". Kind of a 'Do Not Disturb' marker.
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Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
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05-03-2006 10:03
From: Harris Hare I think I understand our opposing opinions now. You're of the mind that being in SL does not constitute being "Online". That being online simply means that you are willing to receive IMs, show up on the map and such. You are proposing being able to mark yourself "Offline" while remaining in world and in doing so disable IM, not show up on the map, etc. and yet still be able to roam the land. I was of the mind that once you launch the SL viewer, you're going "Online". To me, "Online" meant "In World". Now that I see where you're coming from, I tend to agree although I think the status we have now is confusing enough to need revising. Here's my new proposal: Instead of "Online/Offline" perhaps it should be "Available/Unavailable/Offline". When you first log in, you're set to "Available". Your icon shows up on the map and you may receive IMs and remote item transfers. If you set your status to "Unavailable", you basically "disconnect" from the internal IM system and are dissallowed any remote item transfers. IMs are treated as if you were not even connected to Second Life and forwarded to your email (hopefully not to re-appear next time you log on). This next bit, I'm on the fence about: When set "Unavailable" your greed dot does not appear on the main map. A concession would be that if someone is within visual range of you, then your dot does appear to that person/people. What do you think? I think that it shouldn't say "unavailable", that it's about as useful as busy, and I just want it to appear as simply on or offline to whomever I choose. "Unavailable" says I'm here but I'm not talking to you.
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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05-03-2006 10:06
From: Jennyfur Peregrine You apparently miss the entire point of Second Life. Which begs the question why are you here? That is other than to piss off and annoy people with you sheer utter ignorance and irrelevance. Oh I am sorry do not "respect" my betters. I use to love flying my Tarn around just seeing in my mind his great flapping wings soaring on thermal waves high above the ground. It was a freedom.....Then the security scripts at first started to scare me and then unseat, push me or burry me deep in the ground. I gave that up as "selfless" on my part. I use to love exploring but not everyplace is "public" and I have a very hard telling the difference and have had problems because of this. Now I do not explore either. I do like "talking" with my friends online. I like the fact they know am online and where. It helps the communication part. Now for the most part I sit on the command deck of my spaceship doing nothing. I am trying to improve my ship. There is nothing left for me to do.
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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05-03-2006 10:07
From: Persephone Milk It's kinda of a shame that such an otherwise intelligent and useful conversation about one of the most important issues in Second Life has degenerated into a dozen people arguing with just one. How can we save this? Am in the process of "shutting up", please excuse me.
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Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
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05-03-2006 10:10
From: Ranma Tardis I use to love flying my Tarn around just seeing in my mind his great flapping wings soaring on thermal waves high above the ground. It was a freedom.....Then the security scripts at first started to scare me and then unseat, push me or burry me deep in the ground. I gave that up as "selfless" on my part. I don't know if it helps any... but with improved privacy (and the inevitable accusations of GOM-ing the security industry), the desire for violent security scripts will decline, and the skies should be safer in the long run.
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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05-03-2006 10:12
From: Jopsy Pendragon Ranma- 'profit" has no relevance to the issue of privacy. The people that CREATED your security system or CREATED your scripted animals ARE "creative" people. There are plenty of NON-creative types in SecondLife for whom Privacy would be welcome. Couples and small groups of friends or even family in SecondLife, people that met here, or elsewhere that come here to be alone together because they can't be together in RL for whatever reasons. But they can't stop other people from rudely and obliviously intruding when 'guests aren't welcome. Should Linden Labs put up a sign? Something that says "Go somewhere else to be alone with your friends/family/sweetie online. SecondLife isn't for you. Or buy yourself a private sim if you can afford it!" Privacy is something that can be valuable to all of us. There is no need to make this into an epic class struggle between "SecondLife's Self-Serving Creative Elitist Snobs" and "The Normal Folks That Do Things for the Betterment of SecondLife Like Me". "creative" residents are people trying to take advantage of me. I tried without sucess to get a custom skin. I objected to paying for "development" costs but only getting a no copy, no mod and no transfer skin. In turn the person who made it would be selling it for a fraction of my costs to others. That is just wrong..... That resident is thus "creative". Did you misunderstand me?
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Persephone Milk
Very Persenickety!
Join date: 7 Oct 2004
Posts: 870
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05-03-2006 10:16
From: Ranma Tardis Now for the most part I sit on the command deck of my spaceship doing nothing. Ranma, if you think about the things that are frustrating you so much and cause you to sequester yourself alone in your spaceship, you will find that they are all related to issues of privacy. People, trying to find a way to maintain a little privacy. Why do think that people install these security scripts that knock your Tarn into the ground? Why are you yourself on DEFCON 3? You say that you are happy with the status quo, but your posts reveal that you are not so happy at all. Just join the conversation in a constructive way and stop insulting people that do not agree with you.
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~ Persephone Milk ~
Please visit my stores on Persenickety Isle Musical Alchemy - Pianos, harps and other musical intruments. Persenickety! - Ladies Eyewear, Jewelry and Clothing Fashions
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Harris Hare
Second Life Resident
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 301
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05-03-2006 10:18
From: Fade Languish I think that it shouldn't say "unavailable", that it's about as useful as busy It is more than busy because busy doesn't disconnect you from the IM system. It just minimizes the window. From: someone I just want it to appear as simply on or offline to whomever I choose. "Unavailable" says I'm here but I'm not talking to you. But that's exactly what your version of "Offline" is! If you hide the fact that you're online to certain people and then they just happen to see you out chatting somwhere.. they're going to figure out you've been snubbing them. I guess I'm for being honest about your intentions. If you're going to be "Unavailble" to all but those within your public chat range, then your friends and strangers should respect that.
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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05-03-2006 10:18
From: Harris Hare No, it's not. There is no approval process in SL. Not all "IM clients" work the same way. There have been "IM clients" on computers for about as long as there have been multi-user or networked computers, and the instant messaging systems have worked in more ways than you can imagine (they work in more ways than I can imagine, since I would never have imagined some of the ones I've used over the past 30 years... that's for damn sure). The fact that the "IM client" in SL doesn't work exactly like the one you happen to be using as your model of how an IM client works is irrelevant. From: someone Also, I can't disconnect from the IM client inside SL when I'm in SL. That was entire genesis for my "unplugged" proposal. The problem is that your "unplugged" proposal doesn't work in Second Life like logging out of an IM client works in real life. If I log out of AIM or iChat I can still call people on my cellphone, I can still recieve packages, and so on. And you can't use my AIM or iChat "online" status to tell whether I'm awake or not. Quoting an earlier message of yours... From: someone SL has two forms of chat, face-to-face local chat and IM This may be the problem I'm having getting my point across. I don't see "face to face" as being like "chat". I see it as being like "physically being there". I don't see the "online" status as something that should have anything to do with being logged in to SL. The "online" status only applies to the stuff you can't do when you're "physically there". You don't need the "online status" when you're standing in front of me. You can see I'm there because you can see me. So if you're not "online" to remote access, then you shouldn't be treated any differently to the "chat" part of the system than if you're not logged in to SL at all unless you choose otherwise. And local access... the mini map, the sim, that shouldn't have anything to do with the "chat" side of things.
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Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
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05-03-2006 10:22
From: Ranma Tardis "creative" residents are people trying to take advantage of me. I tried without sucess to get a custom skin. I objected to paying for "development" costs but only getting a no copy, no mod and no transfer skin. In turn the person who made it would be selling it for a fraction of my costs to others. That is just wrong..... That resident is thus "creative". Did you misunderstand me? That is a bizarre definition of creative. Anyone would have misunderstood you. cre·a·tive  ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kr  -   t  v) adj.- Having the ability or power to create: Human beings are creative animals.
- Productive; creating.
- Characterized by originality and expressiveness; imaginative: creative writing.
This is what people commonly understand creative to mean. If you're going to employ your own unique definitions of a word, then you need to provide us with a translation, otherwise we can't possibly understand. Incidentally, if you're buying anything custom, then absolutely you should pay for "development" costs. If it's one off, then the only customer that person can recoup their costs from is you, hence it's going to be more than if they were selling to multiple customers. Nothing wrong in that at all.
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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05-03-2006 10:24
From: Jopsy Pendragon If the sign said: Private Sims... in Quarter and Half Sim sizes too!
I would buy 2 quarter sims tonight. One for private, one for public. You can, just get together with another person and buy a four-pack of "void" sims. Split the grand-and-a-quarter and the two-C-notes-a-month. Or ask Anshe Chung or some other virtual realtor to rent you a void sim for (say) US$75 a month... if she can get four people to do that I'll bet you it'd happen.
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Jennyfur Peregrine
Whatever
Join date: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,151
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05-03-2006 10:27
From: Ranma Tardis "creative" residents are people trying to take advantage of me. I tried without sucess to get a custom skin. I objected to paying for "development" costs but only getting a no copy, no mod and no transfer skin. In turn the person who made it would be selling it for a fraction of my costs to others. That is just wrong..... That resident is thus "creative". Did you misunderstand me? Sadly, the days of custom work are nearly over. When the world was smaller it was more feasible to do custom work such as skins. Now with over 200,000 residents its impossible to even offer the option of custom work. Many of my friends and fellow designers who used to do custom work are no longer doing it because they would have to clone themselves 10 times over and work 24/7 to keep up with it. Its nothing personal against you and no one is taking advantage of you by not giving you a custom skin. Its just not feasible anymore and if you make one acception it will never stop.
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~Jennyfur~http://jennyfurperegrine.wordpress.com/ http://slcc2007.wordpress.com/ Deadly Nightshade Design Studio (Indigo 86,61) Jennyfur's Designs on SLBoutique
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