Privacy Update? Please?
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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05-02-2006 06:29
From: FlipperPA Peregrine Ranma, its clear in the comments you've made and the questions you're asking that you didn't even read the entire original proposal... I'll relink it here for you: http://secondslog.blogspot.com/2006/02/formal-proposal-revamping-second-life.html NO, this wouldn't impact your Psyke Phaeton script using llSensor. YES, it would provide those of us to whom this is a concern the privacy necessary. Most of the questions you've asked are addressed in the original proposal. You commented on that page as well, however, its clear from your comments that you didn't read (or perhaps just didn't understand?) the entire proposal. Most of your concerns are addressed in this paragraph, which was typed in all caps: "REGARDLESS OF ANY OPTION, AN AVATAR WILL STILL BE SEEN IN THE 3-D SIMULATION IN WORLD AND ANY CHAT YOU TYPE LOCALLY. JUST BECAUSE YOU APPEAR OFFLINE IN FIND AND YOUR GREEN DOT DOES NOT APPEAR ON THE MAP DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU DO NOT APPEAR IN WORLD. THIS PROPOSAL DOES NOT CONSTITUTE TOOLS THAT COULD BE USED THAT EASILY FOR GRIEFING; IT IS TRYING TO PROVIDE THE OPPOSITE." Regards, -Flip I am concerned about the removal of the green dot. For some strange reason since my "crime" of offending some hypersensitive residents have been under a sportic griefer attack. I do not even bother to report them after all what is the point? I had to disable the outside scripts and build. That of course means I can not build either. The flight option will be next to go on my countdown to DEFCON 1. It is nice that you can see an avatar but in today’s Second Life there are ways to mask that too. Also the view from my spaceship is limited and I am not always looking out a window. Been thinking about the IM's and what you need is an "office" number. My customers in RL do not have my home phone or personnel cell number why should the customers in SL? Perhaps for a small fee you can get an office IM that shows on find, etc for your work. I don’t think we will agree on the friends or the green dot on the map. There are so many tools for griefers now and doing this will just give them another tool.
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Persephone Milk
Very Persenickety!
Join date: 7 Oct 2004
Posts: 870
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05-02-2006 06:35
From: Ranma Tardis I am concerned about the removal of the green dot. Why do you keep going on about this? Nobody wants the removal of the green dot. This thread has devolved into a dozen people trying to convince you of this.
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Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
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05-02-2006 06:38
I guess it's easier to disagree with a post when you don't read the actual words.
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Persephone Milk
Very Persenickety!
Join date: 7 Oct 2004
Posts: 870
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05-02-2006 06:41
Well, let's give Ranma the benefit of the doubt for a moment here. Perhaps she is confusing the removal of your green dot on the big world map (i.e. the ablity to track your location) with the removal of your green dot on the mini map? Ranma, is that where the confusion lies?
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Persephone Milk
Very Persenickety!
Join date: 7 Oct 2004
Posts: 870
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05-02-2006 06:48
Ok, in fairness to Ranma, I just re-read the proposal, and it does in fact call for the removal of the green dot from the map. I do NOT support this idea. This could and would be used for spying and griefing and would make security scripts so much more necessary and prevalent.
I support the option to disable your friends from tracking your location on the world map. I do not support the removal of your green dot from the map. If somebody is standing on my front porch, I want to see a green dot to tell me that. I do not want to have to rely on a security script or paranoid camera panning just to know if I am alone.
My apologies Ranma.
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Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
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05-02-2006 06:53
From: Persephone Milk Ok, in fairness to Ranma, I just re-read the proposal, and it does in fact call for the removal of the green dot from the map. I do NOT support this idea. This could and would be used for spying and griefing and would make security scripts so much more necessary and prevalent. I support the option to disable your friends from tracking your location on the world map. I do not support the removal of your green dot from the map. My apologies Ranma. I thought there was a difference between showing a green dot, and someone being able to identify the dot as you using the find on the map. The green dot should stay, people absolutely should be able to look at their mini-map and know someone is around.
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Persephone Milk
Very Persenickety!
Join date: 7 Oct 2004
Posts: 870
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05-02-2006 06:56
From: Fade Languish I thought there was a difference between showing a green dot, and someone being able to identify the dot as you using the find on the map. The green dot should stay, people absolutely should be able to look at their mini-map and know someone is around. Unfortunately, no. This proposal does call for the complete removal of the green dot. Read Flipper's reasoning: From: someone (This removes a way I've been stalked in the past; people have seen one green dot in Indigo, and figured out that most likely the green dot is me, then come to harass me.) I understand his concern. But removing the green dot would allow those who are harrasing him to do so with even greater stealth. I would support this proposal if the green dot change were limited to an option to remove tracking on the world map. The complete removal of an agent's presense on the map is not a good idea, in my view. Flipper, can you rethink/reword this part of your proposal, or are you sure this is what you want?
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Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
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05-02-2006 07:05
Yeah I strongly agree, the green dot should stay, and almost everyone else posting has pointed out the green dot should stay. Someone looking for a dot in your sim and taking a punt it's you is a small concern that doesn't warrant changing, and is far outweighed by other people's right to know someone is around. I don't think LL would even consider no green dot frankly, so Ranma, I don't think you need fear that one, no matter what people may or may not propose.
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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05-02-2006 07:07
From: Persephone Milk Why do you keep going on about this? Nobody wants the removal of the green dot. This thread has devolved into a dozen people trying to convince you of this. I read Flippers blog and he has written otherwise as reprinted below, 1) Available (2) Away (3) Busy (4) Invisible (5) Offline
Modes 1, 2 and 3 would function much like the current Available / Away / Busy modes do, however, IMs and inventory passes should be saved, and displayed the next time you are no longer in Away or Busy mode (even if in the next log in session). Having inventory passes and IMs be rejected instead of queued is ridiculous; while you’re at it, get rid of the horrid IM-cap. Delete queued IMs and inventory passes that haven’t been picked up after some time period; say 30 days. Even avatars need to go on vacation.
Mode 4 would remove your green dot from the map, and make you appear offline to everyone BUT avatars on your white list.
Mode 5 would remove your green dot from the map and make you appear off line to everyone, INCLUDING avatars on your white list. I suppose that you "creative" types will next demand to be able to inspect any property to determine if the resident is stealing from them and then get the right to seize the stolen property.
What I see is "creative" types going around in SL in full stealth mode seizing "stolen" property or deleting property just because it has a vague resemblance to something they once made.
Of course I could be wrong but the above is the logical next step. I try to learn from my past and have seen simular things happen in my homeland with the exception that the foreignors could be seen and could not be invisible.
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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05-02-2006 08:46
From: Fade Languish Yeah I strongly agree, the green dot should stay, and almost everyone else posting has pointed out the green dot should stay. Someone looking for a dot in your sim and taking a punt it's you is a small concern that doesn't warrant changing, and is far outweighed by other people's right to know someone is around. I don't think LL would even consider no green dot frankly, so Ranma, I don't think you need fear that one, no matter what people may or may not propose. Yes removing the green dot was my biggest concern. I do not really object to the rest of the proposal and certainly understand the need for some control over the IM's. Come to think of it I quit a bunch of groups due to the IM chatter. It was driving me crazy! I was in the Excite group for a short time. Scores of messages about people having trouble with their talking parts were getting to me. It was not until that one message that understanding took hold. I had forgotten all about the the groups!
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Harris Hare
Second Life Resident
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 301
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05-02-2006 09:21
From: Jopsy Pendragon Think of it this way. In Real Life I can build a fence around my home that you can't see over. I can lock my front door and pull the blinds and hide in my basement if I want to. In SecondLife ... I can't. Even with banned land perimeter boundaries extending 40m up from the ground, folks can still shove a camera in my face if they want to. I addressed this issue in the Feature Request forum months ago with my proposal called "Parcel Basements". It's a much bigger issue. You want solidarity. All I'm asking for is the ability to disable remote agent events like IMs and other such requests sent from people far away. From: someone I just want is some privacy so I can focus for a while! Re-read my "Unplugged" proposal again. If we had the ability I describe, then you would have privacy. Just uplug yourself from IMs and such and go someplace secluded. Done and done.
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Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
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05-02-2006 10:05
From: Harris Hare Re-read my "Unplugged" proposal again. If we had the ability I describe, then you would have privacy. Just uplug yourself from IMs and such and go someplace secluded. Done and done.
'unplugged' serves some purposes, but I can't go some place secluded to work on builds that would stretch from one side of my home sim to another and hope it will fit to the terrain. If SL is going to continue growing, and LL isn't going to respond in a timely fashion to TOS violations then we need more options. People that have paid for their land shouldn't have to hide elsewhere just because they want privacy while building or just hanging out with with a friend. -- Ned pass the lemonade and the shotgun, I think I see some revenuers coming up the road...
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Persephone Milk
Very Persenickety!
Join date: 7 Oct 2004
Posts: 870
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05-02-2006 10:12
I wonder if it might be acceptable to have your green dot removed if, and only if, you are on a parcel you own, and that you have set it to be your home?
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Harris Hare
Second Life Resident
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 301
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05-02-2006 10:19
From: Jopsy Pendragon 'unplugged' serves some purposes, but I can't go some place secluded to work on builds that would stretch from one side of my home sim to another and hope it will fit to the terrain. You're asking for the ability to build in a publicly accessable place... privately. A place can't be both public and private at the same time. I think you're being unreasonable here.
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Serra Anansi
In Perpetua Designs
Join date: 1 Aug 2004
Posts: 81
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05-02-2006 10:35
The only time I ever see my card list was when I am in a rush to change my outfit and I clicked the wrong folder.
Why is it that the “give card” option is buried on the second layer of the interaction wheel? And why isn’t there a better interface for the card list? It seems to me that the “card” feature was completely set aside in the early days of SL, because the functionality of the “friend” was good enough for the time being and the true ramifications of personal space were not fully thought through.
The very first option for creating a contact is the “add friend” option. The most powerful and invasive of the two options was presented to us as the first and basically only tool to make “friends”. We have all been conditioned and trained to use that as our first step to creating contacts.
I believe if we had been given the “add friend” and the “give card” as two equally robust interface options we would not be as deep into the social and emotional issue we are in now.
SL is growing by leaps and bounds, some of us are creating very high profile personas, wildly successful businesses, and diverse groups of friends and family. Delaying additional ways for a single person to manage their online life and pressing us to use alternate avatars is not only tedious for users, but it is also irresponsible and negligent on the part of Linden Lab.
As for the comments about the “vocal minority”, if there was a way to ask every resident (not just those who read the forums) their view on the privacy issue, I am sure most would not be opposed to additional privacy options. It’s not like anyone is saying you all have to be invisible unless you jump though hoops, the people who want the additional privacy want it to control their own destiny in SL just like we are able to in our first lives, and I think everyone will have the need for additional privacy eventually.
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FlipperPA Peregrine
Magically Delicious!
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,703
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05-02-2006 11:38
From: Persephone Milk I wonder if it might be acceptable to have your green dot removed if, and only if, you are on a parcel you own, and that you have set it to be your home? That's a good suggestion - green dot could be supressed (even on the minimap) when you're on land you own (or a group you're in owns). Still, why Ranma decides to say my whole proposal has to go just because the status quo works for her, and she disagrees with one insignificant part of my proposal, is beyond me.  Ranma, I must say, if you're not filing abuse reports then the only person you have to blame for your grief attacks is yourself. You ask what the point of abuse reports is? Well, here's the answer: to stop griefers and have an official record of when people break the ToS! If you don't want to be part of the solution, then that's your choice, but please stop complaining about being griefed if you're not even willing to use the system in place to DEAL with griefers! See what I'm saying?  My original intention was to ALWAYS show the green dot on the minimap, and just remove it from the main map; I don't see what the big deal is about removing a dot from the main map? You still have ~150 meters in every direction to see green dots on the minimap. Also, the minimap is the one that's typically open, not the main map. Why allow for this potential kind of stalking with main map use, as was my concern as quoted above by Persephone? Regards, -Flip
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Harris Hare
Second Life Resident
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 301
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05-02-2006 11:46
I'm of the mind that if you're in world you should have a green dot on the map as long as that dot remains anonymous to others.
I'm against any idea that results in giving out false information. Maybe it's a pet peeve of mine, but if you're online, you're online. You already made the choice to be seen. You shouldn't be able to lie about your status to other people or the system itself.
Either everyone has an anonymous GPS strapped to their butt or nobody does. That's just how I feel about it.
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Harris Hare
Second Life Resident
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 301
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05-02-2006 11:50
Something else I want to mention is that LL has already gone on record to say that they are working on making instant messaging work in world and off (probably using an open source IM system like Jabber). That way people outside of SL can IM those in and vise versa.
That alone necessistates the need to have the ability to disable IM within the SL viewer. Otherwise, people outside the world will *also* be able to IM you relentlessly.
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FlipperPA Peregrine
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Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,703
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05-02-2006 11:52
From: Harris Hare I'm against any idea that results in giving out false information. Maybe it's a pet peeve of mine, but if you're online, you're online. You already made the choice to be seen. You shouldn't be able to lie about your status to other people or the system itself. So, I guess you don't use instant messengers (Jabber, AIM, Yahoo, ICQ?), since they allow people to appear as "invisible" or "offline", with chosen exceptions? Are you opposed to people being able to have unlisted phone numbers and hidden addresses? Wow, I'd really love to be able to call Angelina Jolie and see where she lives too. After all, she chooses to have a phone and a house; she should be listed! If a real life celebrity was in Second Life, would you be against them having privacy controls? Because popular ones couldn't do a thing in SL; they'd be swamped. Are you for C.I.A. operatives being outed? Our government is supposed to give out false information all the time to protect them (if fact, its treasonous when they do not!). Should this be changed as well? When did I make the choice to be seen? Being online is not the same as begging to be stalked and completely giving up your privacy; I don't know how you can expect everyone to take that leap! I've got no problem with my avatar being seen in world (I don't have a cloak of invisibility in real life either), but within FIND and on lists is a different story. Regards, -Flip
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Persephone Milk
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Join date: 7 Oct 2004
Posts: 870
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05-02-2006 12:07
From: Harris Hare I'm of the mind that if you're in world you should have a green dot on the map as long as that dot remains anonymous to others.
I'm against any idea that results in giving out false information. Maybe it's a pet peeve of mine, but if you're online, you're online. You already made the choice to be seen. You shouldn't be able to lie about your status to other people or the system itself.
Either everyone has an anonymous GPS strapped to their butt or nobody does. That's just how I feel about it. Hmmmm ... I kind of agree, but I think there is a difference when you are home ... with the car in the garage and the blinds shut. It is possible, in real life, to be home, but not have the fact that you are home apparent to anybody. I think it is possible to be home, with your partner, and not have it obvious that there are two people in your home. I think home is kind of a special place, a haven, where maybe we should be given a little more privacy control.
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Please visit my stores on Persenickety Isle Musical Alchemy - Pianos, harps and other musical intruments. Persenickety! - Ladies Eyewear, Jewelry and Clothing Fashions
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Harris Hare
Second Life Resident
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 301
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05-02-2006 12:18
From: FlipperPA Peregrine So, I guess you don't use instant messengers (Jabber, AIM, Yahoo, ICQ?), since they allow people to appear as "invisible" or "offline", with chosen exceptions? I never use those functions. Reguardless, it's not a correct analogy because in SL you can always be seen with the naked eye but your location on the map is hidden from all but your friends. Also, there is no concept of distance in ICQ.. so I'm invisible to all ICQ users until I add them to my list. In SL, anyone can chat with you face to face reguardless of whether you want them to or not, just as in real life. From: someone Are you opposed to people being able to have unlisted phone numbers and hidden addresses? ... Are you for C.I.A. operatives being outed? Those analogies don't apply because they are not anonymous. The green dot on the map is anonymous. Only by flying into view could a stranger know it was you. From: someone I've got no problem with my avatar being seen in world (I don't have a cloak of invisibility in real life either), but within FIND and on lists is a different story. As for the friends list... don't add stalkers to your friends list and your real friends should respect your privacy. If I can be found by a complete stranger using the FIND menu, then that's news to me.
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Persephone Milk
Very Persenickety!
Join date: 7 Oct 2004
Posts: 870
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05-02-2006 12:18
From: FlipperPA Peregrine My original intention was to ALWAYS show the green dot on the minimap, and just remove it from the main map; I don't see what the big deal is about removing a dot from the main map? You still have ~150 meters in every direction to see green dots on the minimap. Also, the minimap is the one that's typically open, not the main map. Why allow for this potential kind of stalking with main map use, as was my concern as quoted above by Persephone? I think this is an important distinction Flipper (that your dot would still be apparent on the mini-map, but not the main map) and that maybe you should tweak your proposal to mention that. How about this: there would be no way to hide your presence on the mini map, and the only way you could hide on the main map is to be on your home parcel. Of course, we would still want the option to prevent tracking on the main map.
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Please visit my stores on Persenickety Isle Musical Alchemy - Pianos, harps and other musical intruments. Persenickety! - Ladies Eyewear, Jewelry and Clothing Fashions
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FlipperPA Peregrine
Magically Delicious!
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,703
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05-02-2006 12:23
From: Persephone Milk Hmmmm ... I kind of agree, but I think there is a difference when you are home ... with the car in the garage and the blinds shut. It is possible, in real life, to be home, but not have the fact that you are home apparent to anybody. I think it is possible to be home, with your partner, and not have it obvious that there are two people in your home. I think home is kind of a special place, a haven, where maybe we should be given a little more privacy control. We need more than that. What Harris is asking for is akin to everyone on the planet having a GPS chip implanted in them, with everyone else having the ability to teleport within a few meters of them. When I'm out at the park, people have even *less* of an idea where I am than if I'm at home. I'm at work 8 hours a day, at home about 13 hours a day, and out for the other 3 (approximately). So in RL, people who know my address and work place will have a pretty good idea where I am. However, when I'm *not* at home, I can often expect a higher level of privacy. Certainly a lot more than SL affords where I can easily be tracked as if I had a GPS chip implanted, and have people teleport within meters. I just don't get that line of thinking...why are some people so opposed to others who want some quiet time to get work done, or time where you can be uninterrupted to catch up with friends? Currently, these two things are very difficult to accomplish. Regards, -Flip
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FlipperPA Peregrine
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Join date: 14 Nov 2003
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05-02-2006 12:25
From: Harris Hare Those analogies don't apply because they are not anonymous. The green dot on the map is anonymous. Only by flying into view could a stranger know it was you. Actually, that's not entirely true. On many occasions, I have had people port to Indigo who are NOT on my friends list, saying, "Oh, I figured that was your dot on the map." And as to your other comment, then maybe the Friends list should be renamed, "The People Who Can Stalk, Harass, and Teleport Directly To You at Any Time List." The name is completely misleading, and doesn't tell any of the powers it gives. Have you ever had to deal with the hurt feelings and drama deleting callings cards or friendships causes? Its no fun at all, and frankly, I don't have the time. The system needs an overhaul, pure and simple. Regards, -Flip
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Peregrine Salon: www.PeregrineSalon.com - my consulting company Second Blogger: www.SecondBlogger.com - free, fully integrated Second Life blogging for all avatars!
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FlipperPA Peregrine
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05-02-2006 12:28
From: Persephone Milk I think this is an important distinction Flipper (that your dot would still be apparent on the mini-map, but not the main map) and that maybe you should tweak your proposal to mention that. How about this: there would be no way to hide your presence on the mini map, and the only way you could hide on the main map is to be on your home parcel. Of course, we would still want the option to prevent tracking on the main map. My original intention was to be able to remove the green dot from the main map, but not the minimap. I'm actually kind of leaning slightly differently (great suggestion, BTW - I should clarify that in the proposal <grin>  : that you can hide your green dot from the main map OR the mini-map when on your own land (or group land that you're a member of). Anywhere that isn't land you own, Harris is correct, you are anonymous, but that's simply not true for your home land. Assumptions can easily be made by people. Also, by being able to remove your dot from the mini-map as well, you could be working in a sky-box at 700 meters, without having to worry about someone flying up to see you.  Regards, -Flip
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