Privacy Update? Please?
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Marker Dinova
I eat yellow paperclips.
Join date: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 608
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05-03-2006 07:14
From: Pyrii Akula Can you show me an example of this feature elsewhere? =P I'd rather they implement the simple stuff now and if there's a call for it, expand the functionality to what you're proposing. Most MMORPGS, MSN, AIM, ICQ (Dunno about other IM services) all offer the ability to be "invisible" and of course if you still want to talk to people you're welcome to you have to initiate the conversation suually so I think such a system may not have been thought of at first for SL understandably, but the great call of people that feel strongly about this is too much for lindens to ignore =P I've yet to see functionality that allows you to be still visible from a person or groups of people. On Yahoo IM, you can select who you will appear to be online/offline down to the individual. Or you can do it by groups. You can be invisible to a group and select to be visible to one person in that group. Or vice versa. Yahoo IM has, by far, the most completely developed status system I've seen to date.
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The difference between you and me = me - you. The difference between me and you = you - me. add them up and we have 2The 2difference 2between 2me 2and 2you = 0 2(The difference between me and you) = 0 The difference between me and you = 0/2 The difference between me and you = 0 I never thought we were so similar 
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Persephone Milk
Very Persenickety!
Join date: 7 Oct 2004
Posts: 870
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05-03-2006 07:19
From: Marker Dinova On Yahoo IM, you can select who you will appear to be online/offline down to the individual. Or you can do it by groups. You can be invisible to a group and select to be visible to one person in that group. Or vice versa. I would love to see groups implemented. Then I could have separate groups for friends, customers, people I am currently mentoring, etc ... and change my availablity to each group easily ... without having to change them individually.
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~ Persephone Milk ~
Please visit my stores on Persenickety Isle Musical Alchemy - Pianos, harps and other musical intruments. Persenickety! - Ladies Eyewear, Jewelry and Clothing Fashions
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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05-03-2006 07:21
From: Ranma Tardis My RL firm gets tons of refund requests and hate mail. Gee, I can't imagine why!
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“Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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05-03-2006 07:25
From: Harris Hare That's not good enough. Once everyone realizes that online status is unreliable, then they're simply going to attempt to IM and send you notecards anyway. Hmmm, I already get IMs when I'm offline, because people know that IMs aren't *lost* whether I'm offline or not. I don't expect to get any more "are you there" IMs than I do now. I don't get unsolicited notecards, much, but that's because when someone notecards me I tend to respond poorly. 
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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05-03-2006 07:36
From: Harris Hare I was going to pick up that beach-ball but instead it suddenly started floating away! I was going to use that vendor but the buttons are being pressed by themselves! I'm not a big fan of "haven mode" myself, but... Haven mode - only works on your own land, and only if you have set up an exclusive ban on the parcel you're on. In this mode you're only visible to people who have access to the parcel, and you can only see avatars who are actually in the same parcel with you. Maybe it should be an attribute of the parcel. In the access list tab, have a "Haven" checkmark. People in the haven parcel can't see people outside, and people outside can't see them. It'd have the same height limits as any other access controls, and look just like them from the outside. From the inside you'd have green "HAVEN" lines to let you know it was up. Perhaps there could be a fee in Lindens for having it up, to provide a money sink for the economic geniuses to applaud and to discourage people from leaving it up all the time.
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Harris Hare
Second Life Resident
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 301
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05-03-2006 07:40
From: Argent Stonecutter Hmmm, I already get IMs when I'm offline, because people know that IMs aren't *lost* whether I'm offline or not. Maybe that's part of the problem. Is there any reason IMs that get forwarded to email *must* be resent upon your next connection? I'm kind of on the fence about it. It's certainly not consistant with the behavior of most IM clients which do message forwarding. For example, if I'm offline from MSN messenger and someone tries to send me a message, it alerts them that I'm off and their message can be automatically forwarded to my cell phone via SMS. Yet, when I connect to MSN messager, their message doesn't pop up as if it were waiting for me.
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Harris Hare
Second Life Resident
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 301
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05-03-2006 07:44
From: Argent Stonecutter Haven mode - only works on your own land, and only if you have set up an exclusive ban on the parcel you're on. In this mode you're only visible to people who have access to the parcel, and you can only see avatars who are actually in the same parcel with you. Those are interesting concepts but I thought the real problem was with dealing with IMs spamming and item transfer spamming, not with whether someone can see you or not.
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Jennyfur Peregrine
Whatever
Join date: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,151
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05-03-2006 07:52
From: FlipperPA Peregrine Exactly - not to mention just hurt feelings, its also REALLY bad for business. The one time I cancelled (what were then) a whole slew of calling cards, I had far too many conversations explaining that I didn't hate everyone who I had cancelled.
I don't think the problem is getting this project onto the to-do list - its there. The problem is getting it OFF the to-do list, making it a priority project, and getting it done!
Regards,
-Flip Same here. Although I don't feel much guilt about deleting cards. If I can't recall who someone is when I scan my calling card list then I delete them. I will on occasion delete cards of people I don't like. I'm not really into keeping up appearance, so it doesn't really bother me to do this. Every now and then, usually in the throes of my seasonal depression, I get in a funk and delete a lot of calling cards. I'm still trying to recapture the ones I deleted two winters ago now. I can't say I have ever really been hurt by anyone deleting my card. Some of my best friends do this from time to time. I just wish I could hide out online without people knowing I'm on. Granted, I don't get as many IMs as Flip does, but I do appreciate not being seen sometimes so I can work without interuption.
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~Jennyfur~http://jennyfurperegrine.wordpress.com/ http://slcc2007.wordpress.com/ Deadly Nightshade Design Studio (Indigo 86,61) Jennyfur's Designs on SLBoutique
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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05-03-2006 07:53
From: Nolan Nash Gee, I can't imagine why! Lets say your firm has 100,000,000 transactions. Lets say that .1 percent are not happy. How many people does that make? Yes Young one that makes 100,000 not happy people!
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Persephone Milk
Very Persenickety!
Join date: 7 Oct 2004
Posts: 870
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05-03-2006 07:57
From: Ranma Tardis Lets say your firm has 100,000,000 transactions. Lets say that .1 percent are not happy. How many people does that make? Yes Young one that makes 100,000 not happy people! The company I work for does about about $500 million in business annually. We don't get any hate male, while your's gets "tons." I am thinking you are doing something wrong. Just a hunch.
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~ Persephone Milk ~
Please visit my stores on Persenickety Isle Musical Alchemy - Pianos, harps and other musical intruments. Persenickety! - Ladies Eyewear, Jewelry and Clothing Fashions
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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05-03-2006 08:00
From: Ranma Tardis Not having to take IM's (a lot from customers) and the ability to lie about their status online. It is a form of deceit and that becomes habit forming. It's not "lying", it's not "deceit", it's "I don't have to tell everyone in the world I turned my cellphone off or set it to silent, and I don't see why I have to do the equivalent in Second Life". Let's pretend SL really takes off. Like, everyone's on it, it's the Next Generation of the Internet that Linden Labs wants it to be. You can pay your RL bills through AnsheBank. Imagine if every time you logged on to Cyberspace, anyone who really wanted to get hold of you would just have to poke your profile and see if you were busy or not. Not having to risk being inundated with spam every time you stepped outside your house or entered the corner store is habit forming. I don't see why I should have to give up this habit and I don't see why I shouldn't be able to carry this habit through to SL.
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Jennyfur Peregrine
Whatever
Join date: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,151
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05-03-2006 08:04
From: Ranma Tardis It is one of my jobs in RL to look for underlying reasons for proposals. It is sad that Flipper Sanma gets too many IM's from customers trying to get his product or is it to get a refund? I think that the "creative" ones get special treatment from Linden Labs. Flipper has a problem with a customer ah file an AR and get the pest banned. Ranma gets attacked from scripted objects and nothing happens. I have noticed lately that the "creative" ones are very worried about having their "creations" stolen and have been looking all over SL for perps. Perhaps and this is a wild maybe, the "creative" ones and they agents want to be able to go all over SL to look for their product without hassle. Stealth will let them be able to go into private land and Private Sims as well. I am just not convinced that people with such "talent" cannot come up with a workaround on their own efforts. There is something more to this proposal but if not this what? Jealous much? You sound like one of those "ohhh why does no one like me" types who is veritably useless and a total chode most of the time. So what do you contribute to SL? Take a look in the mirror before you decide to blast everyone who tries to make a difference. Granted its not like I really care what you have to say because you are a little nobody blip on my map. You make a lot of assumptions that lead me to believe that you haven't a clue in any case. Flip plays nice. I don't. -Jennyfur (demands a refund for wasting 2 minutes bothering to reply)
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~Jennyfur~http://jennyfurperegrine.wordpress.com/ http://slcc2007.wordpress.com/ Deadly Nightshade Design Studio (Indigo 86,61) Jennyfur's Designs on SLBoutique
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FlipperPA Peregrine
Magically Delicious!
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,703
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05-03-2006 08:06
From: Ranma Tardis Looking closer at that screen and it looks like a "put on" act to me. I can very easily do the same with my account! I cant read your screen very well. I did see something in now I know as a notecard that looks like a bid request. Ah, so now you're attacking my credibility. Guess what? You've just lost the little bit you had left. The only thing we have in SL is our reputations, and while most people who know me will tell you I'm a goofball and sometimes overly critical or passionate, they will tell you I'm also driven, honest, and a nice guy, most of the time. I'm going to let your silly accusations on non-sensical comments speak for themselves. They're not even worth a response at this point. Enjoy. -Flip
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Peregrine Salon: www.PeregrineSalon.com - my consulting company Second Blogger: www.SecondBlogger.com - free, fully integrated Second Life blogging for all avatars!
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Jennyfur Peregrine
Whatever
Join date: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,151
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05-03-2006 08:09
From: Torley Linden There's gonna be a Community Roundtable meeting this Thursday, May 4 @ 4 PM SLT. The privacy topic has come up on the corresponding mailing list too. Please come and discuss!  Thanks Torley! 
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~Jennyfur~http://jennyfurperegrine.wordpress.com/ http://slcc2007.wordpress.com/ Deadly Nightshade Design Studio (Indigo 86,61) Jennyfur's Designs on SLBoutique
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Jennyfur Peregrine
Whatever
Join date: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,151
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05-03-2006 08:10
From: FlipperPA Peregrine Ah, so now you're attacking my credibility. Guess what? You've just lost the little bit you had left. The only thing we have in SL is our reputations, and while most people who know me will tell you I'm a goofball and sometimes overly critical or passionate, they will tell you I'm also driven, honest, and a nice guy, most of the time.
I'm going to let you silly accusations on non-sensical comments speak for themselves. They're not even worth a response at this point.
Enjoy.
-Flip Flips much nicer than I am. Thats for sure  He likes to explain peoples failures in logic and their errors in assumptions so that maybe they might understand. Me? Me, I just like to tell people to go bugger a cactus for enlightenment 
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~Jennyfur~http://jennyfurperegrine.wordpress.com/ http://slcc2007.wordpress.com/ Deadly Nightshade Design Studio (Indigo 86,61) Jennyfur's Designs on SLBoutique
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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05-03-2006 08:11
From: Serra Anansi And why isn’t there a better interface for the card list? It seems to me that the “card” feature was completely set aside in the early days of SL, because the functionality of the “friend” was good enough for the time being and the true ramifications of personal space were not fully thought through. Yeh. If they at least gave us an API to enumerate and navigate our inventory then people like me could script a better interface. Even if it was accessed through HTTPS client-side.
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FlipperPA Peregrine
Magically Delicious!
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,703
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05-03-2006 08:13
From: Persephone Milk The company I work for does about about $500 million in business annually. We don't get any hate male, while your's gets "tons." I am thinking you are doing something wrong. Just a hunch. Well said Persephone, if looks like Ranma's company is used to the status quo of providing horrific service. I work for a small/mid-sized company that's growing, that does about $35 million a year. We have never have received hate mail, in fact, we often get letters praising our service in comparison to our competitors. Our customers, which are some of the biggest companies in the world, often praise our innovation and (I hate this word) proactive customer care. In the five years I've been around, I can only think of two or three occasions we've had an angry customer, and those situations have been solved quickly. Regards, -Flip
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Peregrine Salon: www.PeregrineSalon.com - my consulting company Second Blogger: www.SecondBlogger.com - free, fully integrated Second Life blogging for all avatars!
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FlipperPA Peregrine
Magically Delicious!
Join date: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,703
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05-03-2006 08:16
From: Argent Stonecutter Yeh.
If they at least gave us an API to enumerate and navigate our inventory then people like me could script a better interface. Even if it was accessed through HTTPS client-side. I would *so* love this capability. A least we're seeing the first steps towards open-sourcing with the uBrowser bugs!  Its going to be an exciting few years to see how LL's development model is transformed. Regards, -Flip
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Peregrine Salon: www.PeregrineSalon.com - my consulting company Second Blogger: www.SecondBlogger.com - free, fully integrated Second Life blogging for all avatars!
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Persephone Milk
Very Persenickety!
Join date: 7 Oct 2004
Posts: 870
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05-03-2006 08:17
Could somebody tell me how I can subscribe to the Roundtable mailing list, and where the roundtable discussions are held? I have just reworked my calendar a bit so that I can participate tomorrow. Thank you.
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~ Persephone Milk ~
Please visit my stores on Persenickety Isle Musical Alchemy - Pianos, harps and other musical intruments. Persenickety! - Ladies Eyewear, Jewelry and Clothing Fashions
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Hiro Pendragon
bye bye f0rums!
Join date: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,905
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05-03-2006 08:18
I'm going to try to address your points in a civil tone; please don't take this personally. From: Ranma Tardis I am not the one that wants to turn Second Life upside down to get my desires. I don't believe this is a fair statement. "turn Second Life upside down" by letting people have an offline mode that allows them to not be seen as online? First of all, I hardly think it "turns Second Life upside down", and I challenge you to state how it would radically alter SL. Secondly, Second Life is in constant flux because it is, essentially, a Beta version of the Metaverse. As you more than likely have noticed, patches and features are coming out all the time, because many aspects of what we have are incomplete, or done hastily in a time where Linden Lab could not afford to be ultra-thorough. From: someone I am very happy with the status quo. Every instant messenger I have allows me to appear offline. If you want to talk about status quo, then you should look toward the Internet's standard, which is allowing privacy modes. From: someone If you want to disable the online function perhaps the "self replicating objects" function should be disabled as well. This would be in my interests and the interests of most residents. No more crashes of the system over the weekend  Not only is this completely unrelated, and a red herring, but also it's clear you don't fully grasp how self-replicating objects operate. To turn off the ability for objects to self-replicate is to completely cripple the programming language in SL, because the functions are so simple- llRezObject, for one. This has been previously pointed out. However, your logic about priorities does bear an air of truth. I think Flipper and others in this thread that are for privacy controls would agree that improving crash-prevention should be a higher priority than privacy controls. That being said, Linden Lab works on multiple things at the same time. From: someone You want your "privacy", what is it worth to you? The rest of us have needs too.
This statement is just funny, I'm sorry.  Look, it's clear you're upset, and you think this is a trivial issue. For many people it's not. And not just people like me or Flipper who get lots of customer service IMs and would like to be able to "close shop" for a little while and have some fun in SL, god forbid. People with basic, free accounts who just come here for fun often do want to establish friendships via calling cards, but don't want to give up their quasi-privacy. I hope you will consider this an issue more than just a select few, and understand that people suggesting one feature does not threaten the implementation of another, probably more important one.
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Hiro Pendragon ------------------ http://www.involve3d.com - Involve - Metaverse / Emerging Media Studio
Visit my SL blog: http://secondtense.blogspot.com
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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05-03-2006 08:24
From: Harris Hare Maybe it's a pet peeve of mine, but if you're online, you're online. You already made the choice to be seen. I make my choice to be "seen" every time I step outside my front door. That doesn't mean that my boss gets to look at my real-world profile and see that I'm up early and bug me at 5AM. Hell, the Real World version of your "unplugged" mode is still pretty damn close to a probation monitor. People are forced to wear it as a punishment, and civil liberty groups are concened about it even for convicted felons. That's how I feel about it. If SL was just another MMORPG where I was only online when I was killing orcs or whatever, then this wouldn't matter... it's only a "dungeon simulation" and besides my character's doing stuff that'd get him convicted for murder in RL even if I'm one of the "good guys". But SL is so much more than that, and if I was in Eltee's position It'd be as if LL was treating me like a convicted felon by forcing me to be... one way or another... monitorable remotely whenever I was "awake" in the world.
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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05-03-2006 08:25
From: FlipperPA Peregrine A least we're seeing the first steps towards open-sourcing with the uBrowser bugs!  Ick. I see uBrowser and the whole HTML-on-a-prim concept as a way to avoid opening up the part of SL that really matters. 
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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05-03-2006 08:26
From: Jennyfur Peregrine Jealous much? You sound like one of those "ohhh why does no one like me" types who is veritably useless and a total chode most of the time. So what do you contribute to SL? Take a look in the mirror before you decide to blast everyone who tries to make a difference. Granted its not like I really care what you have to say because you are a little nobody blip on my map. You make a lot of assumptions that lead me to believe that you haven't a clue in any case. Flip plays nice. I don't. -Jennyfur (demands a refund for wasting 2 minutes bothering to reply) I agree with you so much, I do not care at all what you think of me and you are NOTHING to me. <akabe> I do not think the "creative" ones do so out of a sense of making second life a better place but to profit for their work. So get off your high horse about making a difference. I do not believe you are the creator of any objects in my inventory  If I found any will delete them as soon as possible. There are a lot of people out there that have made a difference but they are not "creative" ones. I think about the excellent residents that have made my security system. I think about the people who made my scripted animals. They have very excellent customer service! There are so many people that have help me that I dont wish to offend anyone by leaving out there name. You miss the entire point of my messages.
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Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
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05-03-2006 08:27
Any creator who uses an ability of a "chat invisible" mode to truly avoid customer concerns would be hurting their own bottom line.
- Unless they are a scam artist - In which case they are just going to mute you anyway.
Remember any business holder has to "live" in SL as well when they are online. Just becuase we have a business does not mean we need to be accessable whenever online.
Someone stated their company knows where they are 24/7 - thats all fine , But business holders are not their companys 24/7.
GM probably knows where the CEO is 24/7 but I doubt they would give me his phone number when I have a complaint.
I expect once privacy controls are implimented more creators will use an email address to handle customer concerns.
AN in game email system (ALA Eve online) would be even better. Long as it didnt do anything annoying like blink all the time.
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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05-03-2006 08:30
From: FlipperPA Peregrine I'm actually kind of leaning slightly differently (great suggestion, BTW - I should clarify that in the proposal <grin>  : that you can hide your green dot from the main map OR the mini-map when on your own land (or group land that you're a member of). There's a problem with that. It means that if someone can buy a 16m chunk of prim land near enough to their victim (who could be a target of convenience, so they could get First Land and wait for newbies) they can sit there and watch 24/7 and nobody'd ever have a clue they were there.
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