Just the other day I met a delightful newbie who was a friend of a friend. My friend had been trying to get her into SL for some time, but she wasn't interested in playing some 3D game. Well my friend finally got her to try it and after trying it, she realized it wasn't a game and got very excited about it. Calling it a game creates the wrong expectation for new players and potential new players.
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Honestly the only time I would make a point to say that SL is not a game is when someone else is trying to make a post like this:
"You shouldn't be able to buy, sell and rent land from anyone but LL, because SL is a game."
"People shouldn't be able to sell Lindens for real money, because SL is a game."
"It's wrong that people make a RL living from SL, because it's a game."
"It's wrong for you to call SL a platform, because it's a game."
or
"Please Shut Up if you say SL is not a game."
I don't mind people calling SL a game. I often use the word "play" to describe what I'm doing in SL. But the problem comes when people want to limit what I can do or say "because it's a game."
There is nothing wrong with pointing out that SL is not a game when someone does this. It isn't a game. It's so much more than a game ever could be.
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Please Shut Up if you say SL is not a game. |
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Keiki Lemieux
I make HUDDLES
Join date: 8 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,490
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07-11-2006 09:31
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imakehuddles.com/wordpress/
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
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07-11-2006 09:32
Hehehe, nice try Ricky, but your sour grapes are really shining through here. We all know the history of GOM - one of my favorite services - and that you're not happy with LL. Please don't let that affect a reasonable debate with me.  I've always said I'll support the use of SL for entertainment, but my beef is with people who troll by intentionally saying, "game, game game"... the same respect hasn't been afforded the other way, and you've been around long enough to know it. Regards, -Flip Agreed. People need to accept that neither 'side' has to be right. To understand that people see things in different ways. Its the ones who can't accept a differing opinion that make things difficult. People need to just ENJOY themselves and spend less time trying to define an enigma wrapped in a conundrum. Pardon short sentences, I'm typing with one arm right now. I'll likely be out of work for aroud 2 months fo my broken arm. |
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Grits Warilla
Ego Booster
Join date: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 59
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07-11-2006 09:33
But LL owns SecondLife... not us. They define their property as 'not a game, but a platform'. LL saying SL is more than a game, might have more to do with marketing than actual fact. I mean I know they are perfect and all, but I'd bet dollars to donuts they might say something that isn't entirely truthful to generate more buzz for themselves. Anywho, I have a hard time calling it a GAME. But definition wise, that's what it is. I'm just gonna keep calling it the metaverse and continue being creeped out by it. Grits Freedom Fighter |
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
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07-11-2006 09:33
Just the other day I met a delightful newbie who was a friend of a friend. My friend had been trying to get her into SL for some time, but she wasn't interested in playing some 3D game. Well my friend finally got her to try it and after trying it, she realized it wasn't a game and got very excited about it. Calling it a game creates the wrong expectation for new players and potential new players. ---------- Honestly the only time I would make a point to say that SL is not a game is when someone else is trying to make a post like this: "You shouldn't be able to buy, sell and rent land from anyone but LL, because SL is a game." "People shouldn't be able to sell Lindens for real money, because SL is a game." "It's wrong that people make a RL living from SL, because it's a game." "It's wrong for you to call SL a platform, because it's a game." or "Please Shut Up if you say SL is not a game." I don't mind people calling SL a game. I often use the word "play" to describe what I'm doing in SL. But the problem comes when people want to limit what I can do or say "because it's a game." There is nothing wrong with pointing out that SL is not a game when someone does this. It isn't a game. It's so much more than a game ever could be. And so much less than what a game can become. |
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
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07-11-2006 09:34
Same with poker. But they were designed and defined as games. We can refer to SL as a game out of convenience... like some refer to cattle as 'head' or crew as 'hands'. It's called synecdoche, referring to something by means of it's parts. But LL owns SecondLife... not us. They define their property as 'not a game, but a platform'. We can quibble that our use of their service/property is game-like, or not, but when it comes to defining what SecondLife *IS* ... well. We don't have the property rights necessary to do that. -- Is a house a home if no one lives there? (and still waiting for 'Jo Ann' to pony up some of LL's dodged questions. I can call him 'Jo Ann' right? I'm not arguing that 'Johnny Mann' isn't more than 'Jo Ann' after all.  )LL also said havoc2 by 1.7 |
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Ashen Stygian
@-'-,---
Join date: 30 Apr 2004
Posts: 243
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07-11-2006 09:38
Just to get my two cents in, I'm sure you guys can look at my number of posts and date of birth and write me off... WoW is a game, no argument there. But people are making money off of it. So I don't know why SL is considered not a game, just because people are using it to make money. If you put any large amount of people in a given area people will try to profit off of it. I understand that it's not a typical game, there is no end, but that seems kind of trivial. I have tons of points I could make here, but as I was too lazy to actually read the whole thread, I'll just assume they've already been made. I understand it's new and exciting and completely original (kind of, as original as something stolen from a book can be), but I don't think it's reached the point that, I have no doubt in my mind, it will or something like it will, one day. But right now, it's a game, you can make money and be a furry and kill things and have sex and talk to people and build things and sell them and so on and so forth. I just don't think it's reached the point to where it's something completely different yet. Just my opinion, Grits n00bs don't know anything Noob from 12oz or not, looks like you are here to stay at least for a while, welcome to SL Well with WoW you dont actually own anything you are selling, and it's not something you created yourself. Much like the internet, in SL the content is all user created by either individuals or unrelated companies. Linden Lab supplies tools for users/players to create toys. If it was a game, dont you think the developers would create content for us to play rather than development tools for us to make crap? If you are logging in just to play, that's totally cool, but at least respect the fact that a significant portion of the SL population invests long hours of work so you can play. I try not to look at it as Game vs Platform but rather play vs work, makes a lot more sense to me that way. _____________________
Chaos may not be the safest sim to attempt to grief.... It's a little like going to an insane asylum to pick a fight.  |
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Johnny Mann
Registered User
Join date: 1 Oct 2005
Posts: 202
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07-11-2006 09:39
Ok then I will end my fun lil debate like this.
In my opinion SL is a game even if it is the beginning of a new genre of games. In the future all games will most likely take place in a virtual world. I think it's the obvious direction even if it is 50 years away. You could say SL is just a gateway to games, tools, chat, sex, relationships and not a game itself and I would totally agree with you. I play in SL therefore it is a game to me. Just because there is human emotions, jobs, tools etc. does not make it less of a game, infact it makes it more of one. WoW has these attributes along with hundreds of MMO games. Why does IceDragon still have the highest population? People make money in WoW and Everquest and probably work harder than alot of SL users towards accomplishing some sort of result, but most of the populace would agree that these are games. What defines games as games. Nothing because the Genre will always continue to expand. And if Pc Gaming did not exsist, surely SL wouldn't. (this is speculation, but obvious) Sheesh you need a gaming machine to run the damn thing...lol. Have a good day all and see you IN GAME! |
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Gabe Lippmann
"Phone's ringing, Dude."
Join date: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 4,219
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07-11-2006 09:40
And so much less than what a game can become. What does a game become? A butterfly? _____________________
go to Nocturnal Threads
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Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
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07-11-2006 09:42
Written by: Keiki Lemieux "You shouldn't be able to buy, sell and rent land from anyone but LL, because SL is a game." They don't call the RL version "The real estate game" for nothing! "People shouldn't be able to sell Lindens for real money, because SL is a game." Of course, most major MMO's have exchanges, approved or not! "It's wrong that people make a RL living from SL, because it's a game." They're saying the same should be true of the games of Football or Baseball then?  "It's wrong for you to call SL a platform, because it's a game." Ah... a debate platform in the semantics game. "Please Shut Up if you say SL is not a game." ... silence ... (but only because it's time for me to go play the RL game) |
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Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
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07-11-2006 09:44
Pardon short sentences, I'm typing with one arm right now. I'll likely be out of work for aroud 2 months fo my broken arm. Ah... I thought you were sounding crankier than usual. Hope you mend quickly!  |
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Narmotur Pendragon
Registered User
Join date: 18 Jan 2004
Posts: 11
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07-11-2006 09:45
I understand the issue with game/not game, but it seems nobody ever considers "hobby" as an applicable title. If I build ships in a bottle, is that a game? I get enjoyment from it, it has a goal, but most people wouldn't consider that a game. And, I can make a profit selling my ships as well! (I assume someone somewhere wants to buy a ship in a bottle without building it.) It seems to me hobby is a very good term to define SL, that isn't as loaded as "game."
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Grits Warilla
Ego Booster
Join date: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 59
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07-11-2006 09:45
I look at it as what a game should be I suppose. Or a glimpse into the games of the future.
Opensource games? Metagames? Maybe it's just technology. My all time favorite writer/mentor/I wish I would of met him, Douglas Adams says, "Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet" I think this is a fair way of putting things. At least in my head it works... I don't know yet, it is something. But this is the way things are going. If you've had a chance to look at the game Spore, created by the same fun loving guy who brought you all the Sims games. It's basically user driven, a user makes an animal, and that animal gets uploaded to the server, and another player across that world might go searching to another planet and find that same animal. I'm not explaining it in depth, some of you have no doubt heard of the game, it's all very original and new and fun and I'm very interested and all that. Google: Spore. Read. You'll be amazed, even if you don't play games. |
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Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
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07-11-2006 09:46
Ok then I will end my fun lil debate like this. You could say SL is just a gateway to games, tools, chat, sex, relationships and not a game itself and I would totally agree with you. Last line first: Yay, at least 'gateway' is a step. First line: AWW!!! You were complaining and accusing LL of dodging questions by saying "it's not a game." And you never backed it up with specifics. |
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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07-11-2006 09:48
You could say SL is just a gateway to games, tools, chat, sex, relationships and not a game itself and I would totally agree with you. Then what was your point? You've just defined SL as a platform and not a game. I agree with what Keiki said earlier. Most often when I hear someone make the "SL is just a game" argument it's to dismiss how other people use the platform and to justify behavior that would be acceptable in a game but is not acceptable in SL. Your original post seemed pretty bass ackwards to me. Calling SL just a game is the dismissive point of view, not the other way around. _____________________
 My other hobby: www.live365.com/stations/chip_midnight |
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Ashen Stygian
@-'-,---
Join date: 30 Apr 2004
Posts: 243
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07-11-2006 09:48
I'm just gonna keep calling it the metaverse and continue being creeped out by it. Im not comfortable with "metaverse" either. SL wont be a metaverse until we are all sleeping in pods supplying power for the servers with a 9 inch metal spike plugged into our skulls. Metaverse to me implies SL will replace the internet and I just dont see that happening _____________________
Chaos may not be the safest sim to attempt to grief.... It's a little like going to an insane asylum to pick a fight. |
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Jennyfur Peregrine
Whatever
Join date: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,151
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07-11-2006 09:49
I've never understood why the "SL is a game and ONLY a game" people cannot even accept the notion that Second Life is a platform that can be used for gaming and entertainment. That seems to be a valid way of looking at the big picture. Besides which, it is *very* clear that Linden Lab sees Second Life as a platform in which many things are possible versus just another boxed game. Since, Second Life is there product, I think they get to have the definitive answer. All this bickering would be like me walking into my local Mercedes Benz dealerships and insisting that they sell me one of their submarines. They obviously don't sell submarines. According to them automobiles are NOT submarines, but I think that they are submarines. Do you get my point?
The platformers do not insist that SL is only a platform and there are no games, yet the games insist SL is a game and a game only and should not be serve any other purpose. I'm going have to side with Linden Lab since it is their product and say that Second Life is a platform that can be used for many things. -Jennyfur _____________________
~Jennyfur~
http://jennyfurperegrine.wordpress.com/ http://slcc2007.wordpress.com/ Deadly Nightshade Design Studio (Indigo 86,61) Jennyfur's Designs on SLBoutique |
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Grits Warilla
Ego Booster
Join date: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 59
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07-11-2006 09:52
Im not comfortable with "metaverse" either. SL wont be a metaverse until we are all sleeping in pods supplying power for the servers with a 9 inch metal spike plugged into our skulls. Metaverse to me implies SL will replace the internet and I just dont see that happening I don't think Sl will replace the internet, I think something like SL and the internet mixed, will replace the internet. Still creeped out though... |
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
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07-11-2006 09:53
I've never understood why the "SL is a game and ONLY a game" people cannot even accept the notion that Second Life is a platform that can be used for gaming and entertainment. That seems to be a valid way of looking at the big picture. Besides which, it is *very* clear that Linden Lab sees Second Life as a platform in which many things are possible versus just another boxed game. Since, Second Life is there product, I think they get to have the definitive answer. All this bickering would be like me walking into my local Mercedes Benz dealerships and insisting that they sell me one of their submarines. They obviously don't sell submarines. According to them automobiles are NOT submarines, but I think that they are submarines. Do you get my point? The platformers do not insist that SL is only a platform and there are no games, yet the games insist SL is a game and a game only and should not be serve any other purpose. I'm going have to side with Linden Lab since it is their product and say that Second Life is a platform that can be used for many things. -Jennyfur You seem to be lumping everyone together. I don't say its only a game, but it is a game to me. I'll believe LL when we get havok2 by 1.7. |
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Cindy Claveau
Gignowanasanafonicon
Join date: 16 May 2005
Posts: 2,008
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07-11-2006 09:54
Hahaha! I got Grits hooked on the forum! I win!
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
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07-11-2006 09:56
What does a game become? A butterfly? A game can become a truly interactive 'world' with the right guidance. Whats the difference between having an avatar and dressing as a 9th generation dark ages malkavian? None. Both are characters, representations. |
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Keiki Lemieux
I make HUDDLES
Join date: 8 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,490
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07-11-2006 09:56
Written by: Keiki Lemieux "You shouldn't be able to buy, sell and rent land from anyone but LL, because SL is a game." They don't call the RL version "The real estate game" for nothing! "People shouldn't be able to sell Lindens for real money, because SL is a game." Of course, most major MMO's have exchanges, approved or not! "It's wrong that people make a RL living from SL, because it's a game." They're saying the same should be true of the games of Football or Baseball then? "It's wrong for you to call SL a platform, because it's a game." Ah... a debate platform in the semantics game. "Please Shut Up if you say SL is not a game." ... silence ... (but only because it's time for me to go play the RL game) *scratches head...* are you trying to debate me or the quotes? Cause I don't agree with any of the things in quotes from my post. _____________________
imakehuddles.com/wordpress/
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Grits Warilla
Ego Booster
Join date: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 59
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07-11-2006 09:57
Actually, the girl who got me here gets credit, her name was Six something, you probobly know her. She seems to dip in here quite a bit...
Secondly, I would like to thank the monsters who get me when I close my eyes. But yes you're arguing was by far the one thing that kept me here... But seriously, forums, debate, what the hell else would you expect from me? Grits He's a maniac and he's dancing like he's never danced before |
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
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07-11-2006 09:58
Ah... I thought you were sounding crankier than usual. Hope you mend quickly! You know what I hate? matchbox cars. So little and they end me up in surgery when a kid leaves them out on a sidewalk. |
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Johnny Mann
Registered User
Join date: 1 Oct 2005
Posts: 202
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07-11-2006 10:01
Then what was your point? You've just defined SL as a platform and not a game. I agree with what Keiki said earlier. Most often when I hear someone make the "SL is just a game" argument it's to dismiss how other people use the platform and to justify behavior that would be acceptable in a game but is not acceptable in SL. Your original post seemed pretty bass ackwards to me. Calling SL just a game is the dismissive point of view, not the other way around. When did I ever say "Just a game" Also, who cares if I basically told anyone who called it a platform correct. Am I not being honest even at the expense of my original statements. Pull your head out of your ass. (cheese) |
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Jennyfur Peregrine
Whatever
Join date: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,151
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07-11-2006 10:07
You seem to be lumping everyone together. I don't say its only a game, but it is a game to me. I'll believe LL when we get havok2 by 1.7. I was speaking generally since this topic keeps coming up over and over again with each side bickering at each other. There is a faction that implies adamantly the SL is a game and only a game period. Most of the platformers see SL as a platform that can be used for gaming among other things. I really don't care what people use SL for and how they see it personally, but when the hardcore "sl is a game and only a game" people insist that because SL is a game to them it should also be a game to me and everyone else - that is where I have the problem. _____________________
~Jennyfur~
http://jennyfurperegrine.wordpress.com/ http://slcc2007.wordpress.com/ Deadly Nightshade Design Studio (Indigo 86,61) Jennyfur's Designs on SLBoutique |