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Open Spaces Announcement & Talk with M and Jack Linden

Prize Pyle
Registered User
Join date: 16 May 2006
Posts: 1
11-05-2008 13:32
Besides the fact that this followup post by LL should have been last Monday's first post regarding the OS issue (which could of been done consulting with residents for feedback PRIOR to making policy changes), there needs to be more definition in this policy which I look forward to seeing updated as soon as possible.

For example here's a few:
-- limitations other than av and prim limits should be defined prior to 1/5/09 and if not, you should have a reasonable grace period other than expecting an owner to pay a Homestead fee at the next tier due date
-- Will there be tools for OS owners to measure limits that define these sims, other than avs and prims - this is a must.
-- 'Renting' needs to be better defined. Does renting include OSs where anyone other than the original purchaser of the OS is a parcel owner in the region or does it mean physical structures and/or parcels with residents living on them other than the purchaser. Or does it mean both. A scenario is that a parcel owner of the region (not the original purchaser) could be using the sim within the low prim OS definition - does this qualify as low prim even though an owner other than purchaser is parcel owner?

Looking forward to the answers
Tessie Gray
Registered User
Join date: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 18
11-05-2008 13:32
From: Atashi Toshihiko
Somebody is getting fired. They issued the pink slip to their Customers on Oct 27th, now they're just reminding us that we have till Jan 5 to clear up our stuff.

-Atashi



Funny and I thought as there customers we paid there wages...Hmmmm...I'm guessing they listen to us the community and the customers and twist there first "amended" decision on tier into this knew sugar coated version. But now instead of just paying more for the same thing now we have to pay more and get less...genius idea to line your pockets LL. Less for more that's always a way to keep your customers happy.
Bumble Parx
Registered User
Join date: 2 Jul 2008
Posts: 10
Still means open spaces are dead, and homesteads lacking vital signs
11-05-2008 13:33
It's great to see LL revisit the decision, but I don't believe it changes much.

750 prim limit on a sim means nothing but water or empty land. You certainly can't create a good looking forest. If the script limits don't break everything, maybe the sailing regions will be OK with paying $75 per month for virtual water. Ditto for country parks that don't want much scenery beyond hills and water. And aim at loners, given the 10 avatar limit will prevent fun activities such as riding or sailing events.

Homesteads will be a lot more expensive than having one quarter of a full sim (the equivalent, in terms of prim count and CPU resource). Will people spend that much more money for pretty views versus building multiple levels above ground? Some will, but the majority of current open space users? I'm not so sure. I would have accepted up to a 25% increase, but not 67% just for the benefit of having more ground-level space. And certainly not given the cost of having more space is even more reduced performance, as well as paying much higher monthly fees.

Open spaces are becoming so limited in use they are not worth paying $75 per month for. Homesteads will be a lot more expensive and a lot less useful than renting a quarter slice of a full sim. That rules both out, in my book. It's either run your own full sim or rent a slice of someone else's. And the ease and speed with which you introduce such a large price increase makes me very nervous about investing in Second Life at all now.

If you are currently losing money on open sims, and therefore have to increase the price to make them profitable, I'd accept that. Doesn't change the fact that they are becoming relatively far more expensive than the equivalent slice of a full sim. Will the revenue increase from those that remain cover the lost revenue from those who leave? Along with the lost revenue that will likely happen anyway due to the economic climate. And the lost revenue from the potential customers you have caused to reconsider? Interesting strategy. Hope your cash flow is good...
Bryon Ruxton
Registered User
Join date: 8 Aug 2006
Posts: 23
11-05-2008 13:33
From: M Linden
One thing I learned and others were reminded about in this process is that we have a very connected, passionate Resident base and we need to bring you into the dialog earlier, before putting forward these decisions.


By all means please do. We are looking at two such policy decision reversals in two months (this one and the network advertising decision in September).

Changing your mind as such indicates that you are listening. But it also reflects quite poorly on LL. Every time you shoot yourself in the foot like that, both LL and residents pay some consequences for such indecisive approach.

Regards,
Ladyartista Labrada
Registered User
Join date: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 22
11-05-2008 13:33
From: Carl Metropolitan


Linden Lab has managed to convince its customer base to demand what LL was planning to do all along--and happily take a cut in service and a hike in prices, along with it. .



hmmm...from the looks of the majority of responses in the forums thus far, I'd say most of the population that are adversely affected by LL's arrogant disregard and suffering LL's blatant thumbing their noses at them, has not had the wool pulled over their weary avatar eyes. We can all see this is no compromise. It's no solution. It's not progress. It's backpedaling. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet...... or in this case, a large steaming pile by any other name would still smell ...
Chant Juran
Registered User
Join date: 6 Feb 2007
Posts: 1
11-05-2008 13:33
From: Katt Linden
[Read the new announcement and talk it over here, thanks!]

A Letter to Second Life Residents

M Linden here. Many thanks to everyone who responded constructively with their concerns and suggestions about our Openspaces announcement. We’ve listened carefully and your feedback has led to some amendments to our original plan.

Before I jump to the policy amendments, I’d like to provide some insight into our decision and then recap what we’ve heard from you. When the Openspaces product was originally launched, Linden Lab offered Island owners the opportunity to add Openspaces to their land for light use only –- such as ocean or park land. But we didn’t build in and enforce specific, quantifiable performance limits on the Openspaces. Why? For two simple reasons:

1. As you know all too well, many things affect performance of a Sim in complex inter-related ways (i.e., scripts, prims, avatars, media). We were reluctant to limit the overall experience and your creativity by posing specific limits on all these variables – partly because Linden Lab has always been pretty free-form and believes in the innate goodness of Second Life Residents and partly because imposing limits require that we hire staff to enforce them.

2. We wanted to get this product to market quickly. Openspaces was wildly popular. Some Island owners added ocean and park land, as intended but many built empires – glorious builds, beautiful rental properties and other great things. Since land-owners co-habitate on CPUs, if one owner adds an ocean and one builds a carnival, the shared CPU gets overloaded. The ocean-loving Resident who followed the original intent suffers and we are called in to resolve the conflict. Second Life is much too large to do that.

When we sorted through the good and bad in the many conversations, comment cards, emails, and calls, you shared many things but there were three consistent themes we can work with:

1. Those of you who used the Openspaces as originally intended — for ocean or park land — want that product at the original price point and are willing to accept clear restrictions on usage.

2. Some of you have built businesses on the Openspaces product, set your rental rates or built your groups and although you acknowledge you built more than was intended for Openspaces, a large and rapid price change is too much for you to absorb.

3. Some of you created builds that were between an ocean and a carnival and want some kind of “normal region lite” product – a lower price point than a normal region but with the ability to build a certain amount of content.

We’ve launched three land products in the company’s history: Mainland, Islands and now Openspaces. Because we have complexity everywhere else, we’re loath to add a highly complex pricing structure. Nevertheless, it’s clear we have to build a product mix and pricing structure that offers more flexibility.

Here is how we are amending the price change:

1. We are going to retain the Openspaces product at its original price point and its original intended use (forest, water, etc.). We will have technical limitations to help regulate their use, initially avatar and prim limit restrictions, eventually event, classified and script limits. Those of you who chose to use the Openspaces as intended may stay at the US$75 rate, but will need to contact the concierge team to do so.

2. If you want more than an Openspace, we will offer you the choice of moving to a new product called Homesteads that is intended for light use such as low density rentals. For existing Openspace owners we will phase in the price increase for this new product over the next 6 months. Homesteads will also have technical limits for avatars and prims, and eventually script limits as well.

* January 5, 2009 – non-compliant Openspaces will transition to Homesteads and the maintenance fees will go from $75 to $95 per month. We will offer an educational discount to qualified educators on the new Homestead product. The discount amount will be the same as Private Regions, roughly 30%.

* July 2009 — the maintenance fees for Homesteads will go from $95 to $125 per month

For detailed information on these changes, please go to the Knowledge Base.

We believe this is fair. Jack and I will join you in the forums throughout the day today to discuss this. Comments are closed on the blog, not because we want to limit dialog or free expression but because this is a conversation with Residents and the forums require log-in. This is a policy we are going to follow moving forward with all major announcements. Blog the announcement, express and discuss in the Forums.

One thing I learned and others were reminded about in this process is that we have a very connected, passionate Resident base and we need to bring you into the dialog earlier, before putting forward these decisions. The input we received after Jack’s announcement was prolific and by-and-large very, very constructive. Second Life is at a size where 1:1 conversations are difficult and the forums are inadequate for full dialog. Office hours come up short, too. We have some thoughts on how to bring Residents into the dialog earlier which we will cover in a future blog post and Forum discussion.

I’d like to close on this thought: An area of concern for Residents over the past year has been platform stability. Through the hard work of many, many people, including Residents, we have made great strides that are very well documented. Crash rates are down. Substantially. Period. And until this price change, we were riding high in user satisfaction so we know you have recognized and appreciated the improvements we’ve been making. Our breakthroughs in stability improvement are particularly noteworthy because our land mass increased enormously this year. And, a good part of that increase was from Openspaces. However, the original plan was to expand land mass but expand load at a much lower rate. But, Openspaces — in many cases — have been overloaded with content, scripts and avatars so our very substantial stability gains have come even with the unplanned load increase. We are deeply committed to making this the best virtual world platform in the world and we are making great strides. We’ve also demonstrated we can deliver on our promise of continual stability improvements – even in the face of unanticipated growth.

I look forward to hearing from you in the Forum. Thank you for your candor, patience, restraint and willingness to work with Linden Lab and the Second Life community at large. Second Life is the wonder that it is because Linden Lab has always worked together – albeit sometimes imperfectly – with Residents to build this magnificent, bigger than life world we all love so much.

Thank you.[/QUOTEIts fair to say prices have to go up and i understand your problems but why the H--L did you not work out these proposals first in stead of letting us all have heart attacks ..
Broccoli Curry
I am my alt's alt's alt.
Join date: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,660
11-05-2008 13:34
From: Aura Milev
Thanks Lindens for working out a very feasible solution to everyone concerns, those bitching about this should read the knowledge base and realize there a price increase whether they want it or not. I think lindens did a great job in meeting what everyone wants and they did a great job presenting it this time around. Thanks!


Speak for yourself. Your view is most definitely in the minority here.

Price increases on something that is already overpriced is not welcome. Especially when you're getting less than you got before the prices went up.
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Marianne McCann
Feted Inner Child
Join date: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 7,145
11-05-2008 13:35
Initially (a few pages ago), I thought this sounded good. Then I got to the kNowledgebase article. Now, well, I feel a bit bamboozled.
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Denise Bonetto
Registered User
Join date: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 705
11-05-2008 13:35
From: Ceera Murakami
I also still think that the added value of being able to own your own Homestead directly, without owning ANY other sims or having ro lease a Homestead from a third party would be a very attractive option. Can any Linden tell me any rational reason why these Homestead sims should only be sold to existing sim owners? The ability to control your own sim, and your privacy, could well be worth even the $125 fee level, even though the price per prim is too high at that level.



This is something I desperately would like to see as it could save a lot of people their homes if could buy direct and not have to pay the profit margin on top of an already over priced product. As these are now being renamed I don't see why they can't be purchased without owning a full sim first.
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Daniel Regenbogen
Registered User
Join date: 9 Nov 2006
Posts: 684
11-05-2008 13:36
From: Marianne McCann
Initially (a few pages ago), I thought this sounded good. Then I got to the kNowledgebase article. Now, well, I feel a bit bamboozled.


Mari it is: "We are a great company and listen to our customers! We won't cut off your head in january! We will only cut off your right hand. The head will follow in july. Now down on your knees and be thankful!"
Mariana McBride
Open sim abuser
Join date: 23 May 2008
Posts: 26
11-05-2008 13:37
From: Broccoli Curry
Speak for yourself. Your view is most definitely in the minority here.

Price increases on something that is already overpriced is not welcome. Especially when you're getting less than you got before the prices went up.



I agree with you.
This is a solution for dummys...
Nothing personal.

They will charge us more for less and they took a week to give us the notice they have changed a name.

WOW


Edit..
By the way if they expect me to be happy, i wasen't so angry last week as i am now....
Broccoli Curry
I am my alt's alt's alt.
Join date: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,660
11-05-2008 13:37
From: Denise Bonetto
This is something I desperately would like to see as it could save a lot of people their homes if could buy direct and not have to pay the profit margin on top of an already over priced product. As these are now being renamed I don't see why they can't be purchased without owning a full sim first.


^^^^
THIS
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Kaebora Quinnell
Registered User
Join date: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 21
11-05-2008 13:38
From: Xavier Felwitch
Jack talked about the Homsteads being 3 to a CPU.... how about 1/3 the prim limit of a full sim? sounds fair?

Oh yes. Very. I would only agree if that was the resources given for $125 a month. It's still slightly less than $125 worth of prims in regards to full sized sims, but given the circumstances it would be the best compromise yet.
Earth Primbee
Registered User
Join date: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2
Thoughts on this issue
11-05-2008 13:38
I like that LL has listened to the input of residents, considered it, and made an attempt to bridge the gap in this issue.

Regarding the limits.

I don't know what kind of limitations you can place on a region apart from "no scripts" so my first concern is boats and flying craft not being able to function. Second concern would be "hug" animators and the like that let avatars interact with each other.

Agent limits seem ok to me.

The restrictions on use bring to mind a couple of concerns.

1. I can "live" in a space with or without a house. I may decide that I want to live in the open and in nature without a structure or furniture. I may instead put in a bunch of trees, rocks, waterfall, and "live" in a cave behind the waterfall. This makes it a natural area and I might even be able to do it with 750 prim. So does "habitation" mean your avatar spends a lot of time there "living" or does it mean you have built a house with TV's and scripted room changing utilities?

2. What if I put a submarine in an open space for a nautical effect, would this be classified as a habitation?

Thats all I can think of at the moment.

Thanks for making an effort to resolve this in a more positive way.
Argos Hawks
Eclectically Esoteric
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,037
11-05-2008 13:39
So, if I set up a park with 750 prims, and it has 10 people visiting pretty much constantly, that's ok on an openspace sim at $75/month.

But if I set up an identical area with 750 prims for 1 specific person, and no more than 2 or 3 people are ever there and only for a few hours a day, and the person likes it enough to pay for it, that must be a homestead at $95 (and later $125)/month.

Which one of those 2 sims would actually have the higher load?
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Broccoli Curry
I am my alt's alt's alt.
Join date: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,660
11-05-2008 13:39
From: Mariana McBride
WOW


... one place they would never dare to put prices up 67%, offer less, and expect us to be happy :)
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fredneckteddy Hellershanks
Registered User
Join date: 21 Jul 2008
Posts: 17
11-05-2008 13:40
From: Meade Paravane
Why do you think it won't be all the same issues, all over again, with openlife?



Wtih openLife and Avatar Hangout and all the other grids, they are just starting out. it is much more easy to get in on the ground floor then trying to edge your way into something that has been established for quite some time. of all the other grids I have been to, Avatar Hangout is the most complete one. Not to mention there's no big monster company trying to take every last penny you have. We've also had the promise as founding citizens that with any price increases we will always be grandfathered in. These other companies are watching what's happening here and making decisions based on this "model". They are seeing this feedback and making policies out of it! Sure they will have problems along the way......but one thing's for sure, they won't screw the CUSTOMERS.
eku Zhong
Apocalips = low prims
Join date: 27 May 2008
Posts: 752
11-05-2008 13:41
From: Firelight Simca
Because they're different products with different features and price points.

I may not like the price points, but I do understand the product range.

Firelight

yeah but i paid for one product and now they are giving me another..
if you go through Mcdiddies drivethrough and order a bigmac set.. get home and find a happy set in the bag... what do you do?
Kee Llewellyn
Registered User
Join date: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 9
I want definitions and metrics frankly
11-05-2008 13:41
I use my Open sim for a school. It's mostly water with a few buildings. I run very few scripts and don't have any rental properties. Every week I have in about 6-10 students So is that a Homestead or an Open Sim? I'd like to know what kinds of restrictions will be placed on what and how will they be enforced and implemented.

This sounds like a pretty decent idea, except that if Linden decides that my usage is as a Homestead, I still get the price hit.

To a certain extend it looks like they just decided to extend the roll out timing and give the price hike a happy name.

I would be fine with a limit of roughly 20 avis at any one time and limited scripting: just enough that I can run my slide presentations and do a certain amount of minimally scripted building with the current prim limit of 3,750.

And here's an idea, why not reduce the prim limit for "classic" style Open Sims back to 1,875 (the way they started) and leave the price for Homesteads at $75 with script limits and a discount for classic open sims to $50 with even more script limits?

Honestly anything to reduce the poofing and the glowing and the rotating and the flashing that goes on in SL is fine by me.

And then create a fourth tier of "commercial lite" sims with 7,500 prims and full scripting? Make the price 60% of the price of a full sim. That way the mall folk have a "lite" version, homesteaders and schools and non-profits (or "not necessarily for profits";) like myself have a niche and the Open Simers can still have their sailboat parks and forests.

Oh yeah and remove the "got to have a full sim before you can get the other flavors" restriction on all of them. That way people other than the "land barons" can be full owners of their land.

Also, this way you can fit one commercial lite, one homestead and two classic open sims on a single server and still have less server overhead than you currently have.
Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
11-05-2008 13:42
From: Carl Metropolitan
I'm not being sarcastic. I really work in marketing and I am really impressed. Professionally speaking, this is really good work.


Except when the customers see through the smokescreen and call it for what it really is, pretty much like you just did. :)
Ocean Supermarine
Registered User
Join date: 1 Dec 2007
Posts: 2
in french...
11-05-2008 13:42
Je poste ce message en français, pour varier un peu. ^^
Un open space de 750 prims pour 75 USd par mois est ridicule. Par contre pour moins de 50 USD par mois, je suis sure que ce serait une offre intéressante.
Un homestead pour 125 USd par mois est exactement la même chose que celle contre laquelle nous nous battons. La proposition de diminuer les tiers pour les open spaces éducatives est un leurre pour diviser les opposants.
Personnellement, je me suis posée une question : pourquoi ne pas faire des open spaces limités à 750 prims ( forêts ) dans le Mainland? En effet, ce continent est un vaste foutoir rempli d'horreur en tous genres, un peu de frais et d'espace serait le bienvenu dans ce coin là. ^^ Et peut être serait-ce là une offre qui aurait du succès auprès des résidents. Le prix serait suffisamment attractif pour attirer de nombreux acheteurs.
Le principal problème est que Linden Lab ne semble pas encore avoir compris que les résidents ont besoin d'espace! NOus sommes 70000 connectés par jour en même temps au maximum, avec plus de 26000 sims, nous pouvons facilement éviter une surcharge des sims.
"Yes we can" ((sorry, I cant mis that !! lol))
Ocean Supermarine
Registered User
Join date: 1 Dec 2007
Posts: 2
11-05-2008 13:44
From: eku Zhong
yeah but i paid for one product and now they are giving me another..
if you go through Mcdiddies drivethrough and order a bigmac set.. get home and find a happy set in the bag... what do you do?



I eat it....
Pantaiputih Korobase
Registered User
Join date: 8 Apr 2007
Posts: 41
to make it short
11-05-2008 13:47
3 words or singns:
SL TOO EXPENSIVE
Bertram Merlin
Registered User
Join date: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 18
Bottle water....
11-05-2008 13:47
Just like buying water on bottles.. the water in the tap is great and cheap
but hey.. beter buy bottle water 20 times more exspensive. It seem to
be the OS, homestead or what name are so limited it best just have the
free void water Linden have around all sims.

Its not a good solutions, and what ever solutions Linden Lab comes up wiht
now I think they miss the biggest point here. The lots of people heart by this,
there dreams and hard work and wonderfull places out the drain. People
wiht little money there at last so a oportunityes for some great places. This
wouns, this bad tackling of this case have corsed is not be forget in a long
time. And thats the worts thing. Money isent all even it seems to blind some.

In stead of this atempt on making people swelling this and pay more and
get a worse product Linden Lab should have maked a product there gives
a hand to this creative, skillfull people wiht little money to spend. It will give
the hole SL community lots of places to enjoy, exact what Open Space showed.

Yes, Linden Lab have a voluntere workforce, but what are they building?
Two big areas Bay City and Nautilus, there are so exspensive that most cant
afford buy a parcel there. And best of all it gives millions to Linden Lab in
land income from auctions. How this benefit to the hole SL comunity I have
a hard time to see. I have not forget they also put a road here and there.

I sale my sims... 1 full and 3 Open Space, I cant think any want to buy
the Open Space so that I must see as a lost. But better that then be a part
of this unsecure situation and get on, once again a new place.

And finaly, when Linden Lab raises prices, think on them there have VAT
also, a sim to 125US$ is in fact 156,25US $ for a danish SL user, and to
that come a fee for change around 5US $ so... 161,25US $.

Bertram Merlin
Deeply Disapointed
Ladyartista Labrada
Registered User
Join date: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 22
11-05-2008 13:47
From: eku Zhong
yeah but i paid for one product and now they are giving me another..
if you go through Mcdiddies drivethrough and order a bigmac set.. get home and find a happy set in the bag... what do you do?



First off, I get really P.O.'d that I got a Happy Meal and not what I had ordered. By the time I'm home, I would be be miles from Mddiddies. Still fuming, I don't turn around to return it. It's late, and returning it would be more costly, i.e., gas prices. I'm still hungry, and decide there is no choice except to either 1. eat what I was given or, 2. throw it out and go hungry.

It would appear these are our two choices regarding OS.
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