Open Spaces Announcement & Talk with M and Jack Linden

It's a start, at least they know they need to listen and react.

Any attempt to limit or classify a sim based on how it is used is going to fail. Come on, I can use a sim for myself and use much less prim/script than a forest or a park.

Charge us for the prim limits, av limits, script limits. If we want more, we will pay you for more. It can really be that simple....

This week they took to change a name i read much better names... like suburban (but suburban was a better concept, not just a name.
So... they took a week to change for a bad name.


They really deserve a Nobel!

And now i am really sad cause i can't believe after all they read this is their solution...
Must be a joke.

M Linden, Jack, or whom it may concern.

Light use is all well and good but what can we do when your "full use" sims don't work as they used to work? The release of Havok 4 may have given you all the stability you desired, ensuring that sims no longer crashed two to three times a day but something just after that reduced full region capabilities for many high content communities down to 30 users or less, anything more than 35 users leads to gross physics instability that makes full class 5 sims completely unusable for much other than looking at.

There is a lot of running documentation on this issue, JIRA SVC-2708 and my own support ticket 4051-4753320 which has been running since the 27th of April.

My community, the City of Lost Angels, is a two year long established content based role play community in Second Life, we used to pack around 40 - 55 people into the mainland sim of Satellite on a regular basis, pre-Havok 4, back in 2006 and 2007 and maintained a fair amount of physics stability in exchange for a crash once or twice a day. So while the sim would crash here and there, people could at least walk around and enjoy the purpose of the content we provide....this situation was always a bit hard to deal with though as our popularity literally had people banging on the sim border to get in and of course because we did not control the entire sim at the time, we were constantly at the mercy of a few other users scripts and resource loads plus the child agent considerations of several other mainland sims.

Concierge at the time, most especially Dee and Harmony Linden, assured me that the answer to all our problems was a private estate. Need space for more users? Private estate, tired of griefers? Private estate, tired of other residents script issues? Private estate, want to have less lag so your players can enjoy your content? Private estate. So, given the needs of my community I scrimped and saved and eventually got that private estate.

And after around six months of build time we built the new sim settling for trying to have one island do everything we needed for the people that depend on us to make Second Life fun for them and moved everyone over. The first few months were pretty good, with us being able to put 60 - 70 users in the region with some fair amount of stablity with the occasional crash, yes the crashes were annoying, yes the occasional time dilation degradations were frustrating, but by and large, it was not all that bad given the level of frustration the sim environment has given me and my community since April of this year.

So in that respect, I ended up getting pretty deeply involved with Sidewinder and Simon Linden and the H4 testing process. Through that involvement, The CoLA Community and myself demonstrated at several points H4's inability to maintain the same amount of physics stability under our high content load that the H1 environment was providing. Original tests had us unable to crash the sim at all, but also unable to put more than around 30 users into the test copy of the sim on the aditi grid without the physics becoming unstable and no one being able to walk around. After several months, Sidewinder assured me they had addressed that issue and a few further tests showed that while we could no longer put 60 - 70 users in the sim under H4, 50 users max seemed to be acceptable and physics stayed relatively stable, so I was willing to make that compromise and I capped our user limit at 50 agents after the H4 release and we decided to live with that and try to adjust to the new situation.

As you may understand, we once again ran into something of the same problem we were having on the mainland, people stuck trying to get into the sim because the agent limit was capped, so we started looking for alternatives, by this time we had our residential sim expansions in, also full class 5 sims, owned by associates of mine, but as they were residential rental parcels, they offered less in the area of public content and usability, so we had to start entertaining more ideas for spreading our player load and providing more public content area.

April 25th, or just after, there was a 1.21 server code release, and region performance began degrading extremely once above 35 agents. And this is still the issue we deal with today. There are 46 people in my main class 5 region right now, and time dilation has been between 0.46 - 0.66 the entire time they've been there. We have 13219 objects in sim and unfortunately 9976 scripts, the scripts we have no control of, as we can have the same amount of users and 6000 scripts depending on which users are in the sim...the simple facts are the script load isn't something we can control, we can tell people all day long to cut down their personal script use and every single user can simply go "Oh well they don't mean I have to take off MY SuperHappyFunTimeScriptGadget!" and if they decide not to there is nothing we can do about it because you haven't given me the tools, as a region owner, to be able to see what scripts an individual user runs in their attachments and HUD objects, plus for the content we provide there are several personal user scripts that are necessary for the experience, including our own custom gaming system, CCS, which has never been a problem in regards to causing sim based resource issues because of the way its designed.

And this has been the case every day since April 25th, the sim has been nearly unusable since then at agent levels above 30 agents. Stability is great...we almost never crash, but I personally don't find that much of an exchange for people not being able to WALK and pursue the intended design of my content as they used to previous to the 25th of April of 2008.

So what do we do? Well we spread the load a bit, try to provide MORE area, so we spend MORE money, buying Open Space sims because we need more land AREA not more TIER expenses, and we limit the use of these sims as annex areas, many of my open spaces aren't even using HALF their prim limit, they're just there to provide more space for users to spread out into to allow our lag weary community places to enjoy the content where theres a potential for them to at least be able to walk down the street.

And then you come along with these changes to how Open Space sims are used.

I mean you're not giving us many options any more and you're not fixing the issues we're dealing with. I've been dealing with Sidewinder, Simon and Kyle Linden for seven straight months in regards to this issue. I am consistently told little to nothing about what is going on with the problem. In some cases I have Concierge Lindens telling me that the problems are only affecting ME and its MY fault, and then when shown that its not just ME its other similar communities as well such as Midian City and Toxia and and the Kingdom of Sand and any other sim popular enough in its content offerings to have more than 13 people in it at any given time....I get told its only a "handful" of user regions and you all have no intention of fixing the problem for that "handful" of user regions, then on the other hand I have Prospero Linden closing the JIRA associated with the issue saying its fixed when its NOT fixed, Andrew Linden acting like hes never even heard of the issue when we brought it to his Open House after around 5 months of the issue being existent and Kyle Linden, poor Kyle, sitting there in TESCalation, wishing he could do something about the issue and wishing the people who could do something about the issue would at least talk to him so he'd have something to tell me about when it might be fixed, but since no ones talking to him, all he can do is listen to me rant about the problem.

The simple facts are M, and Jack, is that your quest for simulator stability has killed simulator use for everyone that provides real content. A class 5 sim at this point is a great thing if you run a shop or a rental sim that is less likely to have a large amount of agents on it for any amount of time. Class 5 sims only remain stable under 35 users now and thats a fact no matter HOW they're used.

Our class 5 combat/role play sims perform EXACTLY the same as the Class 5 sims used for the Hair Fair event in July did, Hair Fair had 4 sims, and around 6000 objects in each sim and less than 1000 scripts previous to agent introduction. Hair Fair was extremely popular as an event and of course there were around 60 agents in each sim at the opening and NO ONE COULD MOVE.

So overall, what do you expect us to do, when you reduce the capability of class 5 sims down to 30 users, via bug or potentially, at this point INTENT, and then you offer us a low cost alternative to maintain our communities through expansion via Open Space, other than to use them? Its the only option we had because you cut our legs out from under us by making the simulators we paid for incapable of doing what they used to do as a daily course of events.

And now you guys are unhappy because Open Space sims are being over utilized? You feel as if we've taken advantage of your system? I'm sorry. My apologies for providing something other than yet another sex club/dance club/mall/camping sim to your world.

Maybe if my class 5 region was half as capable as my original class 5 mainland sim (that I didn't even own all of) I wouldn't NEED to use Open Space sims as a way to spread out my load? Maybe if my class 5 region was stable and could handle 40 - 60 users as it was INTENDED TO DO originally and it did, I'd be more willing to buy another one rather than use Open Space sims.

I dunno, maybe if the Lindens stopped telling me six different stories and treating me like a leper and punishing me because I did something as offensive as give people something to do in this crazy ass world, and actually fixed this problem I've been dealing with for the last 7 months, I'd be more willing to invest more money into more class 5 sims.

Til then, I'm sorry you guys feel like people took advantage of what you offered, I can assure you, in our case, you didn't give us any other choice.

Ok...what's changed?

For the extra money, does that mean I will get better performance?

Or do I pay more for more restrictions?

Or will it just be as it is now, but I still pay more?

I understand the pay more bit!

So many words that mean nothing...........the art of rhetoric.

If they said habitation were ok, they would probably get arguments like this.

"But you said I could have it as a home. And no one could possibly have a decent home for only 750 prims. So I need you to up the prim limit. And also, if it's my home, I should be able to have my friends over for a party, so you should up the avatar limit. And so on..."

So, I think they are just trying to prevent those type of arguments.

People asked for more definition and they gave it. If you can live in no house under the sea, I suspect it will not be an issue for you - since you say you don't really spend time there anyway.

Firelight

heh...must be nice to have a Core Group (us) write your business plan for free. Better than taking it to a university, eh? Less hassle that way.

sheesh...

I would have thought this would be one of the times LL would have chained someone to the forums and instructed them to do nothing but aswer the concerns of the resedents.... come on just talk to us!!

Somebody is getting fired. They issued the pink slip to their Customers on Oct 27th, now they're just reminding us that we have till Jan 5 to clear up our stuff.

-Atashi

OK, now that I have had half a day to mull this over...

The proposed 750 prim limit probably is too low for regatas for the sailing clubs. Maybe going back to 1850 would be a better choice. But for costal water next to my existing home sim, that a few people could play around in with small boats and swimming, it would still be pretty good. Yes, the cost per prim is crap, at 750 limit. But the setup and monthly costs beat getting a full sim or a Homestead sim if you really only want a swimming beach. The pricing for a 750-prim OS sim should be more like $50 per month though, considering how much less you get for your money.

I agree that they should only raise Homesteads to $95, and think that they should definitely move them to three per core instead of four. the latter change gives them better performance for the improved price, and that price point, at three per core, is within $10 per month of LL's revenue per server core for full sims. Any more simply isn't justified, unless they drop all the way to two Homesteads per CPU core.

I also still think that the added value of being able to own your own Homestead directly, without owning ANY other sims or having to lease a Homestead from a third party would be a very attractive option. Can any Linden tell me any rational reason why these Homestead sims should only be sold to existing sim owners? The ability to control your own sim, and your privacy, could well be worth even the $125 fee level, even though the price per prim is too high at that level.

Ane please, seriously consider some sort of prorated refunds or buy-backs for those people whose use of their OpenSpaces sims just can't fit with your new proposed prices and limits. It is completely unfair to sell someone a 3750-prim product at $75 per month, and then chang that so it has to be either a 750-prim product at the same $75 per month, or a 3750-prim product with avatar limits and a gigher $125 per month rate.

Be serious! In the previous thread - discussion "with" Jack Linden - he posted once. In this thread he's already posted twice. True, he's ignored almost everything that's been asked and said, but it's still a 100% increase on his previous performance - effective immediately!

I'll keep the long-winded post I want to type out of this... but I'll summerize in only a few words.

This deal gives us even less, pratically putting us further back than we were a week ago. If we pay $50 more, we expect to get more in return. Homestead users will want MORE PRIMS for what they are paying. Period. $95 per month seems somewhat fair for what is being presented, but not $125.

I agee. I've been looking for a rival for SL for three years now. Well, actually, in a way ... I've been looking for something like SL since the early '80s. There's nothing even vaguely in the same class, except clones, and they're a long way from rival status.

Just read this post from another thread Lindens...



You might be a business and in it for profit but even a business needs a heart.

You can do better!

Jack talked about the Homsteads being 3 to a CPU.... how about 1/3 the prim limit of a full sim? sounds fair?

I own several Voids/openspace sims, I will admit, I use some of them as rentals to pay for the others, which are scenic sims. even my scenic sims are over the 750 limit that’s proposed. I'd say go back to the old limit that we had before the prim limits were raised, of 1825ish prims. I have an arctic tundra sim thats literally nothing but snow and décor save for a few building scattered about to give it the feel of being a baron wasteland and yet its still over the tiny 750 prims.
I would request that you take a look at Ryder Arctic, and please let me know how its not being used as intended? i can cope with the original prim limit of 1800ish that was given to me when I originally bought the 4 pack of open/void sims, but 750 is just too few prims.
It really feels that Linden Labs enjoys punishing those of us that embrace the new technology. you embrace owning sims, the rates go up 50% a few years later, you embrace the new technology of void sims, just to get your prims cut back way before the orginal levels, or your forced to pay an increased fee because its assumed your renting the sim out.
750 just seems like a knee jerk reaction, lets be reasonable here and use the old limits of 1800ish, and limit the av traffic. this will allow those of us who have them for scenery alone to keep that, without sacrificing quality of the build.

They're going to get them anyway unless they define habitation.

Everything in SL is scenery. Including your so-called "house".

Thanks Lindens for working out a very feasible solution to everyone concerns, those bitching about this should read the knowledge base and realize there a price increase whether they want it or not. I think lindens did a great job in meeting what everyone wants and they did a great job presenting it this time around. Thanks!

/me still bets that it will be 2 openspace and 2 homestead sims per CPU core. Seems like it would be the smart thing to do..

Fair?
To punch his face would be fair.

hey jack m where are you thoought this was a open talk dont look like it to me

Oh, there are definitely improvements. I wouldn't want to go back. But there's a myth that the reason openspaces have such bad performance is because of abuse by residents, when the fact of the matter is, it was Havok4 that killed openspace performance, not the residents. It was immediate and obvious the day they rolled out Havok4. For a few weeks, I hoped they'd fix it and my openspaces (purchased back when the limit was 1875 prims and I was happy with that) would go back to normal, but they never did. And now they want more money for a product that isn't half as good as what I originally had back then.

I kept hoping they'd eventually fix the problems that cropped up after Havok4 rolled, and performance would go back to what it used to be, but by now it's clear it never will. Instead, they're going codify reduced performance as policy rather than make them able to handle what they once could. The 1875 prim, Havok1-based openspaces I original had were barely worth US$75/mo. None of the new offerings are worth that much.

In a way, I'm glad for this. I've been overpaying for four openspaces for months now on the vain hope they'd eventually get back to where they were when I bought them back in the Havok1 days, but that's just not going to happen. It's time I kicked into action and just converted them back into a normal sim.

You've managed to turn a PR disaster of a suggestion into something more palatable to your customers by making the deal...WORSE?!

Here's an analogy...

Linden Pies starts selling small pies with a label saying 'eat em slow'.
We love the pies so much Linden Pies makes em twice as big.
Linden Pies decides, 'hmm, they love these, but it's killing our ovens.'
So they put out a sign, 'those pies you love? They're 66% more now.'
Customers freak the hell out...how dare you?! Reconsider this!!!
Linden Pies put out another sign...'we love you so much we're gonna
sell 2 kinds of pies now... the one you love so much at the same price!
(disclaimer... now 1/5 of its original size, cherry count and filling amount)
We're also gonna sell new pies for that 66% higher price that you'll love!
(disclaimer... original size, but 1/2 cherry count and filling amount) '
Customers respond by following Marie Antoinette's advice

You seriously need to have the fire department check out your offices...
some gas is escaping that is making you stupid...

You've basically made the original offer even worse than it was before.
In what world does that equate to better? In what world does that show
that you heard any of us? In what world do you expect us to actually
believe you care about your customers other than their wallets? If the
answer to those questions is 'your world, your imagination', you haven't
learned a thing...

Personally, I have two problems with this. The original OS usage should go back to what it was before -- 1875 prims. Enforce the rest of the limits absolutely, but cutting back to 750 prims is absurdity.

Second, Homestead should have a larger prim allotment relative to the cost and CPU ratio. Low enough to keep them performing well, but higher than 3750 to encourage people to pay the higher price. Right now all we have is M Linden blowing smoke, Jack desperately trying to back peddle, and no real answers.

Wasn't this supposed to be talk ? Yet again, 30 pages and no reply from M or J.

Lindens, your track record has showed us that there is no way to predict what loony decision you will make between now and July. You change the rules all the time. We simply can't trust you any more.

You are just buying time with this, hoping that some of us will fall for the $95 increase, but if we accept that, then we can no longer convert the sims for free, so accepting that smaller increase is a de facto acceptation to pay $125 in july.

Not that there are any Linden's reading this now but - are you satisfied with the response you've generated by your decisions today? I do feel I have to point something out here, we pay you for this service, we pay you for the land, we pay you for pretty much everything you can attach a fee to..we also create this land you charge so much for. I imagine it would be a much more unattractive place without the creations of the 'residents' on it, can't be bad when you think about it...you supply patches of virtual land and everyone else creates a world you take the credit for (not including the occasional patronising comment or two). Is your opinion of the people who help make all that money for you really so low?

You can see how unhappy people are..there's a lot of sarcasm and snide comments too - but you know why? because people are angry, hurting and feeling cheated here - we are denied the 'right' to talk to the Lindens anymore as you are far too important, and we are reduced to the frustrated circus like atmosphere of forum posts like this..so we shout, we rant and rave...but you still ignore us, it's so sad, can't you see what you're doing?

You have a chance now - put aside that pride, listen to the majority of very unhappy people here and try and work WITH them to find another option. Or secondly do what you're doing now..ignore the posts, think yourself better than all of us and go ahead with your current plans. It will speak volumes about who you and what your values are. In the meantime, I, like so many others here will get ready to cut back the amount of our sims. Honestly, I'm beginning to wonder about my future in SL, it's getting to the point it's just not a nice place to be anymore. It

What a sad day for Second Life.