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Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden |
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Digital Digital
Registered User
Join date: 4 Nov 2006
Posts: 71
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10-29-2008 17:15
Come on out Lindens & give us some answers!
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Fredy Kyong
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 28
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10-29-2008 17:23
I switched from Premium to Basic. I will drop all sims.
_____________________
www.slnextgeneration.de
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Rhonan Morrisey
Registered User
Join date: 31 May 2008
Posts: 108
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10-29-2008 17:33
Avatar Hangout is the place to go, fully working currency and permissions in place
Runs on hippo viewer for mac,windows and xp www.avatarhangout.com Prices are 80$ full sim, 40$ 5000 prim sim, and 20$ water region. no setup fees. (thats for Alba Virtual Estates) see you there |
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Mavromichali Szondi
Sim Builder and Architect
Join date: 2 Jun 2007
Posts: 15
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10-29-2008 17:37
As strange as it sounds, we are reacting exactly how LL wants us to act - believe it or not. Lets go through the numbers... Assume for a moment there are 800 Open Sims on 200 servers - and those servers are "bogged down" due to overuse. At $75 per Sim per month, they are making $60,000 a month. Now - if they raise the price to $125. and lose 33% of their clients, income is now $66,000. and they can redistribute the remaining 528 sims across 176 of the 200 servers at THREE each rather than FOUR sims per server. 10% income increase, 33% better performance, and 24 extra servers ready for 72 new customers. Like it or not, it's a win-win for the lab. Even if NO ONE quits, they increase income by $40k for new servers. Bottom line is it doesn't matter what we do... so make your choices based on your own situation and needs - not whether it's right or wrong. I know, it stinks. BC So we need to make sure that they lose 66% of their clients to make a point eh? Or perhaps that should be 67%. I for one won't ever live on Mainland. |
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Jini Hammerer
The green chick
Join date: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 196
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10-29-2008 17:39
Avatar Hangout is the place to go, fully working currency and permissions in place Runs on hippo viewer for mac,windows and xp www.avatarhangout.com Prices are 80$ full sim, 40$ 5000 prim sim, and 20$ water region. no setup fees. (thats for Alba Virtual Estates) see you there after this hadge podge.. i don't trust the inegrity of any online service anymore.. Once i breakfree from what i own, i'll never invest in any online BS again.. If i cant run it from my own PC or my own servers, i don't need it cause trusting the honesty and integrity of others has gottem me screwed several times by LL alone and I have had just about enough of it. LL screwed me twice so far just because i wanted to be a land owner. once by lowering the purchase value of my sims by 700 USD each then forcing me to abandon my open sims because i simply cant afford their outragious rates. LL takes and takes and takes and never expects to give anything back.. |
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Vic Arashi
Registered User
Join date: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 45
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10-29-2008 17:41
/me LOLZ at LL for changing their obvious "Abuse" of their own Open Spaces Sims in the form of a 3331 prim, heavily scripted moon base into a full sim over night.... Are you serious? Surely they are not that stupid. I can't believe the dishonesty of this company. I'll say it again: Outrageous!! This will look good in court. Anticipating the next move: suspension of accounts belonging to those who are speaking out. We'll see! |
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Sean Bonds
Registered User
Join date: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 5
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I still can't believe it
10-29-2008 17:45
I along with my partner and a friend purchased a nice quite OS. Only 3 AV's living on this OS with no commercial business, just private residents. I spent tons of money developing and building a beautiful paradise for me and my partner. Now with this change in prices and policy, we will have to give up our little OS paradise, and what makes it worse, we will never be able to sell the OS now due to the policy changes, screwing us and others like us out of our money. LL is basically stealing our OS from us. The more I think about it, the more dissapointed I become. I believe that this will be the downfall of LL and SL.
SL may fail due to this action by LL. I hope that you people at LL who decided to make this action know the total outcome of this UNFAIR, UNJUST actions on your part. |
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Mariana McBride
Open sim abuser
Join date: 23 May 2008
Posts: 26
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10-29-2008 17:46
I think after all this reading they'll have to think it twice and if they make us pay all this tiers... they will give us more prims and the chance to use them harder.
I think they have to... Sorry about my english... |
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Hiawatha Kapelusz
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 95
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10-29-2008 17:58
I along with my partner and a friend purchased a nice quite OS. Only 3 AV's living on this OS with no commercial business, just private residents. I spent tons of money developing and building a beautiful paradise for me and my partner. Now with this change in prices and policy, we will have to give up our little OS paradise, and what makes it worse, we will never be able to sell the OS now due to the policy changes, screwing us and others like us out of our money. LL is basically stilling our OS from us. The more I think about it, the more dissapointed I become. I believe that this will be the downfall of LL and SL. SL may fail due to this action by LL. I hope that you people at LL who decided to make this action know the total outcome of this UNFAIR, UNJUST actions on your part. I am in exactly the same postion ... I have spent megabucks on my Island, and am so upset as i will not be able to afford the extra fees. Why don't they charge the people who are using more space, and leave us alone ? .. In this day and age most people are having huge sales to generate money .... not charging an extra 60% for extacly the same service. |
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Sinji Itokawa
Registered User
Join date: 5 Nov 2006
Posts: 3
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Possible solution in the chat??
10-29-2008 18:00
Quoting from the adhoc chat with Jack Linden:
[5:07] SexyAnn Ashley: Jack please listen to this Have a Option for people to get a Credit for thier Open Space sims if 3 or under and convert all others for free and if they don't do it then they accept the Tier price increse and make the sims that pay that tier work better then they do currently [5:07] Jack Linden: SexyAnn: something like that is feasible Unquote -Free Conversion over 4 OS sims to full sims -Credit for those dropping their OS if they own less than the 4 (3 or less) required to convert freely to full sims -Improved performance for those OS sims remaining. If there has to be a price increase, I can live with these terms. I will gladly take a credit on my main in exchange for dropping my OS sim. |
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Barb Carson
Registered User
Join date: 11 May 2006
Posts: 230
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10-29-2008 18:05
Avatar Hangout is the place to go, fully working currency and permissions in place Runs on hippo viewer for mac,windows and xp www.avatarhangout.com Prices are 80$ full sim, 40$ 5000 prim sim, and 20$ water region. no setup fees. (thats for Alba Virtual Estates) see you there Rhonan isnt that the new smoke screen for SL, Central Grid Scammer Frank Corsi Jasper Tizzy? Yeah it is. Although the website have to say is much better work than Franky can do. Didnt notice any grammatical or spelling errors in my cursory look. The tip off is the Estate there owned by him/her Rosalee Alderson. That's Frank btw..mr and mrs. The other tip off is no company info that I could find. But then again, they are revolting scammers imo and didn't look too long. I'd stay far from that place if I were any of you. Scammers don't die. They just reincarnate and move along. edit: waits patiently for the legions of Frankbois to come and splatter crap about me.. reputations speak loudly...im not worried |
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Josh Piper
Registered User
Join date: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1
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No No No No
10-29-2008 18:07
hey dont do it or alot of people in secondlife will just give up isnt it better to have 75 usd a month than none?
Openspace Announcement Discussion I will be reading all the comments to this thread tomorrow and will reply as best as I can then, as it's very late for me now in the UK. Please be assured that we do read every reply. Jack --- Openspace Pricing and Policy Changes In March of this year, we announced improvements to our light use land product that we call Openspaces. Not long after this, the new Land Store opened allowing estate owners to buy Openspaces and have them delivered almost immediately, an enormous improvement over the old method of ordering them via support tickets. As a result we have seen tremendous demand for Openspaces - with many thousands of them being ordered. We're delighted that so many of you have found them to be a useful addition to your estates. Read on after the cut.. For those that don't know, an Openspace is a type of private island that we made available for light use countryside or ocean. We figured that if Governor Linden can have ocean and green spaces, we should let private estate owners do the same. But Openspaces differ from normal regions in one particularly significant way; unlike normal regions that effectively get a CPU to themselves on the server, there can be up to four Openspaces on a single CPU (so 16 on a quad core machine), sharing the resource (hence them being ‘light use’). So Openspaces have been incredibly popular as a perk for estate owners, but sadly there is a twist. Unfortunately most of the Openspaces are being used for much more than light use. Based on analysis performed in August and September, Openspaces are being used about twice as much as we expected, in other words being loaded with double the content/avatar load than we'd expect for a region that is supposed to be light use. Rather than being employed as open areas like ocean with little or no content and traffic, the majority are being rented out to residents looking for a place to live. Because they were never intended for that level of load this is causing problems. For some people this has meant a less than great experience with performance fluctuations. The overuse of Openspaces has also put additional strain on some of our network and database infrastructure at a much higher ratio than is reflected in the current pricing. So higher traffic to and from the servers along with heavier demands on the asset server, both of which impact the overall experience people have inworld. We need to therefore take some steps to improve their performance and better reflect their actual usage levels in our pricing so that we can maintain the best performance level for everyone. As a result, we will be implementing a pricing change effective January 1st along with some policy changes effective immediately. Beginning 1st January 2009 We will increase the monthly maintenance fee from USD$75 to USD$125 per month. This price increase will apply to all owners of Openspaces on January 1st as well as new purchases after that date. There will be no grandfathering of Openspace maintenance pricing. For anyone owning class 4 Openspaces on January 1st, they will be upgraded to class 5 by end of January, to further improve the experience people have on those regions. At the same time, we will be increasing the upfront fee for brand new Openspaces from USD$250 to USD$375. Effective Immediately We will no longer allow the Owner of an Openspace to be changed to a different resident than the Payor. Initially we will not enforce this change on Openspaces where the Payor and Owner are already different but in those cases the only change allowed will be to set the Owner back to the Payor. This doesn't affect the parcel level rentals, this is just focussed on the whole region rental of Openspaces. We will no longer offer an educational or non-profit discount for new Openspaces. As mentioned earlier, this is due to the increased back end resource required for us to support Openspaces in the way that they are now being used. For the small number of Educators that already have Openspaces, we will be contacting you directly to discuss this change. Next, we will be making changes to the viewer that enable residents to know precisely what type of land or region they are on so that the land market remains as fair and easy to understand as possible. So expect to see changes that much more clearly display to residents whether they are on Linden Mainland or Private Estate, whether it is a Normal region or Openspace and what that means. This will affect various aspects of the Viewer including the inworld Search along with the About Land and Buy Land screens. Making Land easier to understand will benefit everyone, especially new users looking to step onto the property ladder for the first time. Lastly we will begin to proactively discuss overloaded Openspaces with their owners. This is important because as with abuse of region resources, a heavily overloaded Openspace can adversely affect other Openspaces sharing the same machine which is clearly unfair to residents who are using them responsibly. We have listened to your feedback on this, and agree that we need to make changes to better support our Openspace users by actively working to keep the performance levels as high as possible. We will also provide some detailed guidance about what ‘overuse’ looks like and how to prevent it. So to recap: * Openspace prices and fees change on the 1st January with no grandfathering. * Class 4 Openspaces will be upgraded to class 5 in January. * Educator discount is no longer available for Openspaces. * No Owner switching for Openspaces unless it’s a full transfer of Payor. * More proactive education by support staff to prevent unfair resource use by Openspace regions. We’re sure there will be many of you with questions and concerns on the back of this announcement. As previously, there will shortly be a forum created specifically for discussion of these changes so please head over here if you wish to provide feedback. In addition, if you need a more personal dialogue about this post, please contact support as usual. |
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Joshe Darkstone
Registered User
Join date: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 44
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hyperbole
10-29-2008 18:07
It wasn't just the prim count that changed - they also removed the requirement for opensaces to be attached to full sims and allowed them to be created anywhere on the grid. That was a clear indication that LL no longer expected them to be used as just filler sims between full sims but that they could also exist completely independently (and seperate from) full sims. There seems very little point to allowing you to create a seperate openspace sim in the middle of nowhere, disconnected from any other sim if it wasn't intended to be occupied! Matthew Of course, and Ive pointed out both of those additional "features" in many of my posts, here and on the blog. Heres one that gets me... [5:31] Jack Linden: Coal: we had not expected the demand or load increase; it would have been hard to predict On the blog when they announced these OS sims a number of us, myself in the strongest of terms, denounced the move and the effect it would have on land values. It is patently rediculous to suggest that they could not predict the demand for them. They even put off releasing them at the lower price for several weeks because the new land store wasn't ready and they couldnt keep up with the orders manually even at the higher price. If the load couldn't be predicted, its because they didn't think to look. Perhaps they could have looked after 5000 had hit the grid? maybe after 10000? no, still not even after they had pumped out 15,000 of them... at 20000 or so, the demand shut down because of the MUCH predicted effect on land sales (cant rent a parcel for tiers right now) So... They waited until they had sold every last one they could before deciding to figure out that they were having an adverse effect on the load. Convenient, and profitable. But since the first part of that statement is obviously not true in that they were well aware of the demand, then the entire statement is hyperbole as far as I'm concerned. Half-truths are lies. There. Proof positive for those of you who like to think LL has you best interests at heart. They lie. |
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Vic Arashi
Registered User
Join date: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 45
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10-29-2008 18:08
Australians might consider this site for legal recourse: http://www.scamwatch.gov.au/content/index.phtml/tag/reportascam#h2_41
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Haleigh Fairey
Registered User
Join date: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 14
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Save Our Open Space Sims
10-29-2008 18:12
Ok Im not gonna lie....I live on an open space sim and so do alot of people i know, and who cares.. I mean ok so its meant for light use..but who the hell is going to pay 75 and now 125 usd a mnth to stare at waterways.....trees and stars... We dont use high prim or scripts.So we r lightly using our open space sim... So I dont see the problem with a couple liing on an open space.
Honestly i dont even think this price increase should effect the ones who already have them.. It should effect people who want to buy more.. LL is gonna lose a lot of money with their greed... And as I read if u want to jack up our prices then jack up our prim... SL is meant for people to come together...have fun..meet people they never would.. Do fun things... Its not meant for greed.. JUST LEAVE OUR OPEN SPACE SIMS ALONE...WE LAG...WE FREEZE..WE CRASH..WE CANT TP....YOU CLOSE SL TO DO WORK THAT APPARENTLY DOESNT FIX MUCH AND NOW U WANNA JACK UP THE PRICES....GOOD LUCK |
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Kirstyn Meredith
Registered User
Join date: 2 Jul 2008
Posts: 17
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10-29-2008 18:24
This won't be the downfall for SL, they're too well established & competition is still 1-3 years behind them.
What it does do is hurt faith & trust residents have with LL policies. I remember some time back where people's perception of LL was at an all-time low. They took the punches and came out with renewed faith. Residents responded really well to Lindens after that. This incident unfortunately puts them back down to that low. I have no remorse for anyone who sold/rented OS sims for residential use beyond a single home or for commercial purposes. You knew what OS was to be used for regardless of the guidance being worded as a suggestion instead of a directive. In this case, yes, you made the bed, you sleep in it. You took a gamble using the sims for purposes contradicting it's intended use & now you're being called on it. Epic. For those who rented on them, you can't expect renters to know the whole of land information & to be honest, the vast majority of them don't care. They see X prims on X sqm of land. It's not their burden to sort that. That belongs to the region owner. For those who HAVE used OS sims properly, they are the true victims here because they're really paying the price, especially those like the sailing group who have been here forever. No where in the blog announcement did I read that this charge was for improvement. What I read was an established fee deterrent for abusers. Still, this doesn't change the fact that money was paid and months later a big change-up is being done where all OS owners are being "blanket punished". The wrongs of those shouldn't carry over to everyone. The right thing to do is grandfather OS sims, and beat on those who use it for purposes other than their intended use. |
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Terri Razor
Registered User
Join date: 3 Sep 2008
Posts: 11
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Take care of the People using them correctly
10-29-2008 18:24
Me, and my partner purchased an open space sim for our home.
We use it for just that. We have been there for about 2 or 3 months. We have had a party there.. but other than that. We only use for our personal use. There are three of us that live on this sim.. and we havn't Even used half the prims yet.. I hope that you rethink this. And crack down on the people abusing what you started.. You should of thought of People running clubs on these sims that should of come into your mind before you even offered.. Because we will not pay more for what we have now. So maybe the grandfathering is a thought you should think on more. |
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Argos Hawks
Eclectically Esoteric
Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,037
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10-29-2008 18:25
wow. over 160 pages, and Jack's made only 1 posting.
I've seen script limitations mentioned a number of times as a possibility. Do NOT limit it by number of scripts. That treats an inactive floating text script the same as the world's most computationally intensive script as the same thing. Limits on total script time may make sense, but it would make more sense to put the limit on Total Frame Time. Sims already throttle down when they hit 22ms Total Frame Time. If openspaces are taking twice the resources as anticipated, just force them to throttle at 11ms instead. Jacking up the prices means that people will actually abuse them even more to make up the cost difference. The people that will be punished are the ones that were treating them properly. I've heard that the Linden attractions that were built in openspace sims, like Mos Ainsley, are being turned into full sims. Doing that without making a public announcement that it was a mistake for LL to build those in a way that abused openspaces gives the appearance of a coverup. You've seen the panic that a sudden announcement like this causes. Now there's a rumor that some people at LL are leaking information about a Q1 increase for full sims too. You need to come out and state long term plans for tier levels to calm the market and allow people to actually put together plans. Tell us what tier levels will be for the following year, and make quarterly announcements about what the tiers will be a year from then. Not what you hope tier levels to be, but what they actually will be. Someone asked Spike Linden if LL had a business plan, and he said that it would be stupid for anyone to do business without a business plan. It's impossible for anyone in SL to make a business plan when tiers can jump by 67% at a moments notice. And if you can't realize that 2 months is a moment's notice when you are talking about business plans, then you aren't competant enough to be in that position. Tell us where full sim tier levels will be a year from now, and if they are going to change, we need to know when and how much. _____________________
Step 1: Create virtual world
Step 2: ??? Step 3: Profit |
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Joshe Darkstone
Registered User
Join date: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 44
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10-29-2008 18:27
Avatar Hangout is the place to go, fully working currency and permissions in place Quit spamming the forum with this repeating post Rhonan. You may feel the need to hide LL, but can you police these crap posts please? |
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Sindy Tsure
Will script for shoes
Join date: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 4,103
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10-29-2008 18:36
can i have your stuff? but I'm not refunding your money mind you. Because even though you paid me for it, it's mine, and I can do what I want with it. Ha! That's really clever, Bex. Really. Sure. Send me all your stuff, especially the no-copy bits, then feel free to send me a bill later. |
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Jedi Quintessa
Registered User
Join date: 29 Oct 2008
Posts: 80
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10-29-2008 18:39
I will not be buying a OS at that price, will take my business somewhere else
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Erinyse Planer
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jun 2007
Posts: 37
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10-29-2008 18:44
I don't want to hijack the forum, but before i get to my point I will say this... the main troll on this forum, on both of her alts has been brought to the attention of her isp and has attracted the attention of a few of my former colleagues in a professional capacity. the actions of this person on this thread and their wild accusations of being personally attacked, threatened with bodily harm, deliberate attempts to hijack the forum and spread disinformation border on if not outright breaking laws regarding slander, defamation, inducing panic, and harassment in many parts of the world. Because of my past career I can state this with firm certainty.
now to get to my main point, I don't know of a single person in SL that will not be adversely affected by this decision, and this decision on top of a relapse of Linden Labs' employees back into a pattern of ignore the customers including the ones volunteering their time to help has saddened and frustrated me. I have begun to question the point when allot of what I and my fellow volunteers do and say gets ignored and decisions like this that actually hurt the credibility of those of us that are friends with some lindens and who do the volunteer work who have defended the lindens and put our reputations on the line stating: "just hang in a little longer, things are getting better..." Some of my fellow volunteers have already quit. I'm on the verge myself. Not only have many of the places I most enjoyed either folded or stated their intention to do so because of this disaster, but I have been had my credibility with many of the owners, staff, and fellow players of many of those places destroyed by a combination of this disaster and other recent decisions LL made. the same people that i became a volunteer and guinea pig to help. I personally am starting to believe that LL wants to deliberately run their customers off SL. Sincerely EP/CM PS: I only posted under this name instead of my usual one for the forums cuase i wanst paying attention when i logged in. |
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Joshe Darkstone
Registered User
Join date: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 44
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10-29-2008 18:44
I have no remorse for anyone who sold/rented OS sims for residential use beyond a single home or for commercial purposes. You knew what OS was to be used for regardless of the guidance being worded as a suggestion instead of a directive. In this case, yes, you made the bed, you sleep in it. You took a gamble using the sims for purposes contradicting it's intended use & now you're being called on it. "who sold/rented OS sims for residential use beyond a single home or for commercial purposes" See thats the rub, this is not what they are defining as abuse. They are saying they should never have been used for residential purposes AT ALL. they should be used instead for 3750 pirms worth of... water. You cant redefine abuse and be selective about it. 20,000 OS sims have been sold and the vast majority of them are being used as residential. In my islands its 1 person to a region and 50% water. but that is abuse according to their definition. and commercial? ok, what about "light commercial" low lag objects and no events, etc. My stores operate in this way to create a restful, meandering low lag envoronment where people can still shop. It works very well, not at all laggy, never more then 3 or 4 av's at time, but abuse by their definition, and yours. The point is they knew how they were being used when they decided to take advantage of the demand and turn them into a more desirable product for this type of use. They knew it, they enabled it, and they waited until the demand dried up to call it a problem that needed to be solved. The perverbial cat is out of the bag. any attempt they make to stuff it back in is going to hurt 10's of thousands of residents, and its no one fault but their own. |
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Darwin Radek
Registered User
Join date: 9 Jan 2008
Posts: 1
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Open Space Sim - disgruntled
10-29-2008 18:44
I own an open sim. I paid good $$$$ for that. If this goes into effect...I'll be forced to abandon it. I still have over 2900 prims on the sim. I did plan to open a store on the sim. I can't work with this new tier. The current payment was a bit much for me, but increasing it? I would NEVER have considered buying the sim if the tier was this much. I'll have to evict my best friend that also lives on the sim. Builders need a place to build. and I can't afford a full sim. SL is much less attractive to me now. I may just abandon the whole structure
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Mystiphi Giha
Registered User
Join date: 24 May 2007
Posts: 17
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10-29-2008 18:49
Quoting from the adhoc chat with Jack Linden: [5:07] SexyAnn Ashley: Jack please listen to this Have a Option for people to get a Credit for thier Open Space sims if 3 or under and convert all others for free and if they don't do it then they accept the Tier price increse and make the sims that pay that tier work better then they do currently [5:07] Jack Linden: SexyAnn: something like that is feasible Unquote -Free Conversion over 4 OS sims to full sims -Credit for those dropping their OS if they own less than the 4 (3 or less) required to convert freely to full sims -Improved performance for those OS sims remaining. If there has to be a price increase, I can live with these terms. I will gladly take a credit on my main in exchange for dropping my OS sim. 1 sim = 4 OS = 1 server, if You pay X amt for 1 sim on a server Why when you have 4 OS on 1 server it would cost more. Wouldn't it be feasible to charge those having less than 4 OS the money if in the end we are essentially paying for 1 server & its oversight ? ? Someone please explain to me, what the difference is between 4 OS on 1 server and 1 sim on a server unless for some reason they are just sticking them any old place if you have 4 ?????? |