Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden

Hii Ann

been there earlier today too, i will also be making stuff to give away free there .......don't need shop to do it you can put the stuff in the various community centers there

Just shame no economy yet put hey will arrive there soon i think.

Ohh and no need to make hair there is hair there for free..............i found some.......not very pretty but better than the ruth look..........*giggles*

SL is going down the drain, just like the economy in America did. Seems that people will be forced to also sell their Second Life houses because they can't afford it anymore. Tip for the Lindens : If people are mis-using the system you created it's because you are not capable enough. Don't let customers pay for your own mistakes. Stupid is who stupid does... we should all leave SL and seek for a better world.

Avatar Hangout is the place to go, fully working currency and permissions in place

Runs on hippo viewer for mac,windows and xp

www.avatarhangout.com

Prices are 80$ full sim, 40$ 5000 prim sim, and 20$ water region. no setup fees.
(thats for Alba Virtual Estates)

see you there

rhonan

Katt, thank you for editing Snowflake's personal attack on me out of her original post and out of my quote of her original post in my response. <3

I do feel that the prim count increase in itself was not the cause of the problem LL is now facing. The real cause is the loosening of the placement restriction.

i) under the old rules an openspace would have to be anchored to a full sim. One of the attractions of the new openspaces was that they could be rented out as completely self contained islands not linked to anywhere. Forcing openspaces to be linked to other sims would have provided disincentive which might have prevented the runaway popularity which has cause many of the problems.

ii) having to anchor an openspace to a full sim would mean that an estate owner would need to purchase and own at least one full sim for every 8 openspaces, this would have provided a disincentive to landbarons whilst not impacting those using openspaces as fillers.

iii) it wouldn't have undermined LL now claiming that openspaces were never intended for the uses openspaces are being put to as a wooded or water sim in the middle of nowhere attached to nothing makes no sense...

Matthew

1500 would just be back to around how they started. I'd be all for it.

What disappoints me most about this whole thing is that it penalizes those of us who did actually play by the rules. I mean, I'm not new to SL; I started the day it opened to the public, and owned about half of Europa on the mainland for many years. I finally fled the mainland to escape ad spam, and found a nice estate of openspace sims. I'm currently renting one, and put 551 prims on it--that's it. It gets almost no traffic, has no shops, no party casinos, or much of anything else. It's a scenic place to virtually sit and talk. It costs about the same as my half sim on the mainland did, and solves every single one of my annoyances about the mainland.

So now my prices are going up because LL wants to provision me with a higher sim and script allocation that I won't use--since, after all, what I was looking for was open space! At this rate, renting a sim will be higher than renting space and power for my own server in a data center!

Bah .

Arashiko Kobayashi

Could be worse.

AS IF LL ARNT MAKING ENOUGH MONEY ALREADY !!!!!!!

I KNOW I CANT AFORD TO MAKE THEM ANY $$ ....AT 65AU CENTs IN THE DOLLAR (U DO THE MATH)

ALOT OF PEOPLE WILL "LEAVE" SL BECAUSE OF GREED !

CHECK OUT "OPENLIFE" >>>> http://www.openlifegrid.com/

OVER IT

CB

If Linden Lab intends to lower prim limits and script limits on the OS's it is still 'selling me one products and giving me another" !

I will tell the forum that a group of us land owners have met both in world and real life with a law firm that has started legal proceedings against Linden Lab. We will be filing in court if Linden Lab does not totally reverse it's decision and position in this matter.

They have broken laws. They WILL answer that in a court of law.

Complains have also been filed with the California State Attorney General - all of you may file their too.

Linden Lab's ONLY legal recourse is the grandfathering of the existing Open Sims and leave us alone if they wish to increase any price or set new limitations.

They have progressed greatly and can you believe you can take your SL inventory there? Yes, its doeable, you'll need http://www.secondinventory.com ...However, there's a drawback...you can only take what you made, not other creators works from SL.

This announced price gouging by Linden Lunatics is madness. You have just killed at least two pending projects with non-profits I was working on. They will not buy sims under conditions like this.

That's too bad - but WORSE - you have the silliness to blame this on the USERS!!! Unbelievable!!!

As mentioned by others here, MOS AINSLEY. is a great sim, and a very creative build. It's an open space sim. 3357 pirms out of 3750, 25 avatars in attendance when I was there (cap at 40), with VERY HEAVY scripting on all objects. It showcases what can be done on an Open Space Sim. Again, let me repeat - this is A LINDEN BUILT OPEN SPACE SIM.

So LINDEN LABS is obviously showcasing an OPEN SPACE sim in "inappropriate" use. How is this not classic bait and switch advertising? It's dishonest at best.

So under what twist of tortured corporate insanity does making this unilateral move actually SOLVE your stated problem? In what universe does charging 67% more REDUCE load in an individual sim? By heaven - I'd take any Open Space sim I had to the wall at 3750 prims and 40 avatars all the time if that's the way you are treating me. . . not REDUCE prims, avatars and scripts!! So we are left with the only possible alternative - you are trying to dive Open Space owners away in droves. That is a transparently cynical, and deeply divisive policy. It is yet more evidence of a bait and switch.

If you have a problem of a backbone structure that can't handle your current user base, I suggest that rather than blame it on the users, you consider actually fixing the backbone.
If the problem is, as you state heavy avatar use of the open sims, cap concurrency on open sims to 20.

In other words - FIX THE PROBLEM. Don't misdirect and duck the blame. How will forcing the closure of open space sims reduce demand on your asset servers and system? Those avatars are just going to be somewhere else.

Linden - wake up and smell the coffee - in one big move you've just handed at least two clients of mine the path from Open Space to Open Sim. I suspect you've done the same for THOUSANDS of others.

Now I suggest you take a good long look in the mirror and realize - the emperor is looking kinda silly and naked. Go put some clothes on, and come back and work with your client base, not against it.

For a community not based in rentals or profits like the one we've established this comes as a heavy blow.

We have a main sim, and a few months back decided to buy an open space, which we've kept as neighbor for just decorative use. Nothing of the heavy use you are using as an excuse.

We will, of course have to press the abandon button for Legium, since paying the new amount in a moment of deep recession is prohibitive, as well as out of logic. The service provided is not worth the prices.

I have gone over the replies in this thread, most intelligent, and right on the issues.

In business fairness and in good faith, if you are going ahead, please return the amounts we paid you for creating those open sims. Otherwise the whole move makes it seem like you made them accessible just to gather the means to pay for servers which you will later use for something else. The customers aren´t liable to pay for your errors.

OR as some suggest check your logs and just attempt to overcharge those who used those open sims for other purposes.

I am very disappointed in what Second Life has turned out to be, we've invested thousands of dollars over 2 years, investing in what you advertised as the future of the internet. And its worrisome to see that such investments, monetary, and emotional are discarded just like this.


This kind of move just reaffirms the sentiments of your CEO given during the keynote:

"So the first is, in the earliest wave of pioneers in any new disruptive platform, the marginal and the dispossessed are over represented, not the sole constituents by any means but people who feel they don't fit, who have nothing left to lose or who were impelled by some kind of dream, who may be outsiders to whatever mainstream they are coming from, all come and arrive early in disproportionate numbers."

– Mitch Kapor, Second Life 5th Birthday Closing Keynote[12]

Did Jack forget that openspaces sim were alloted 1875 prims before their 'generous' doubling of prims to make the sims more saleable, and does he remember back in July when he talked up the growth of the grid, primarily due to sale of the more generously primmed openspaces? But wait. I thought it wasn't about prims - it was about resource usage and here's he talking about script count as though all scripts take the same amount of script time. Even one script can be too much if it takes more than 2-3 ms.

Also, back when Jack was crowing about openspace sales, I don't recall Jack giving a voodoo math lesson on how 2 openspaces are greater than 1 full sim. The simple math is that 4 openspaces takes the same amount of equipment as 1 full sim, and Linden would not have offered the $75 openspaces if that wasn't the case.

Instead of voodoo math and smoke screens, I'd like to hear the real reason for this underhanded bait and switch. It's pretty obvious to me. Linden has found they can sell manicured 1024 plots with pre-fabs on the mainland (Bay City, Nautilus) for 50,000 - 100,000L a pop plus premium memberships. The suit in the ivory tower figure that's a whole lot more profitable than lower margin openspace sales. So instead of doing the right thing and honoring the deal you make, the greedy suits are telling the OS customers to take a hike or increase the profit margins.

Yay for you two (ann)

I don't know how to make stuff, but if I did I'd be doing it too.

I will increase the population by one though

I have been in Second Life for over two years. My partner in SL and RL has also been in SL for almost two years. We have many times discussed purchasing an entire Sim. However, after reading the latest concerning the price increase, I can say now that we will never buy land.

The decision to raise prices instead of doing the logical and RIGHT thing of enforcing the policy and removing the offenders is what has killed any desire I have to own land. I can understand a reasonable price increase to offset rising costs, but the percentage here is way too high. I would not pay that price increase for a "want" in real life, and I wont do it here either. I also would not tolerate being punished for the offenses of another in real life, again, I wont do it here either.

Investing money is always a risk; the key is to take a calculated risk. I've figured the risk of investing in Second Life, and the odds are too high that LL will flex the TOS and cause me to lose my initial investment. Informing your affected customers by blog rather then email or in world message is especially offensive - I have worked in Customer Service for over 25 years and I know that your venue choice for your announcement is a HUGE mistake. People paying for service on this level, more then fifty dollars a month, deserved to be treated better.

You've really blown it here. I wont leave Second Life, but I will take my disposable income elsewhere, where I have some protection. I have no confidence in investing real money in Second Life. I would not ever invest money in a company with such poor customer service.

I have filed a complaint my attorney with the Attorney General of NY. I urge everyone to file complaints with their own state Attorney General and if you wish as well California AG.

If you want a good example where the load on the grid originates visit the mainland Sim Pak

We have a retail facility there and watch it closely. Today I snaped a pic of the stat tab for LL
reference

Total Frame Time: ranges from 33 to 55 ms
Sim Time Other : ranges from a low of 20 ms to a high of 80 ms

Sim FPS 28
Physics FPS 28

It has been deteriorating all week

This Sim went through a class 5 conversion earlier this year and was working quite nicely but recently it has been failing due to trash floating in the sky over company lands.

Why don't you just turn on the auto sweep on LL land.

/me LOLZ at LL for changing their obvious "Abuse" of their own Open Spaces Sims in the form of a 3331 prim, heavily scripted moon base into a full sim over night....


too bad it's after soooo many people saw it and took screenshots. well, at least now if people ask for proof of this abuse, LL has one less sim to use as an example.

LL is like the chubby kid sittin in the coner, cheeks all puffed out, crumbs all over his face, frantically trying to brush them off while the other kids try to figure out who ate all the cookies in the cookiejar.

None of us want to get less than we bargained for when we purchased or rented our OS sims. If overload is the problem, then addressing overload has to be the solution. I don't think there is any question about that. So what is really happening here? There are 3 basic categories of OS owners:
1. Some OS owners are maintaining low burden sims by limiting things other than prims - scripts, textures, etc. They have been gettting what they paid for (cheaper land for park-like use) and using it in the spirit of the TOS. These sims are profitable to their owners only esthetically and to the extent that they increase the value of any commercial adjoining full sims.
2. Some OS owners are using their sims for purely commercial, profit-driven enterprises, placingt huge loads on the servers (high traffic, textures, scripts, etc). Although they are clearly getting what they have paid for (cheaper sims with 3500 prims) they are wreaking havoc on the system and as a result, on others in sl. Their use is NOT consistent with the intent or the viability of 'open space' sims.
3. Those who have yet to purchase OS sims.

Those in group 1 neither contribute to the problem, nor should they be deprived of the benefit of their bargain with LL resulting from this disproportionate rate increase. They should remain untouched.

As to group 2, LL has the technical means to identify them and to restrict use or attach increased fees as a result of 'abuse'

As to group 3, LL can simply raise the cost of newly purchased sims, reduce limits on prims, scripts, avatars, etc., and enforce those limits.

This knee-jerk LL reaction to the overload problem - which is unquestionably real - throws the baby right out with the bathwater. It is not complicated. Nor is the solution - and there are any number of solutions that will solve the problem while also respecting the rights of landholders and the spirit of sl. There are thousands of incredibly creative people in sl. Let's hope this is resolved in a thoughtful way, one designed to make sure they want to stay.

and can afford to

BC that sums things up superbly. Anyone who actually believes they really matter to the Lindens as an individual or as part of the "SL community" probably also sit on their back verandah every night hoping to see the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus skip hand in hand into the sunset.

Nautilus is currently selling at obscene profits for the Lindens. The Lindens can easily absorb a few hundred/thousand OS Sims Users walking, they have already got the OS setup costs recouped. They own the assets and simply resell everything over again, including the setup costs. It is brillant in its simplicity, the only flaw is the hubris. Who needs customer service skills when you already have the money and a seemingly endless supply of fresh dupes to milk when the disillusioned leave?

Thats why in the 2400 posts (approx) so far, only one short "motherhood" statement from the missing Jack. No one matters and the Linden's don't care.

Though when competition is up and running, the missing Jack, Mitch and all the other invisible Lindens will be out shaking hands and kissing SL babies, faking sincerity to get people to keep their beloved credit cards in the "SL community".

Actually, you can take full perm stuff -- like you can hit the freebie shops in SL grab the full perm stuff there, and upload it into any of the opengrid grids such as openlife or avatar hangout. (just pls make sure it was legally full perm in SL first, hehe.)

This makes me even more irritated. As someone else pointed out, the original prim limit was 1875 with no script limit, because the number of scripts is irrelevant. One script can be a problem. What kind of idiots do they take us for?

Now seriously, let's look at this. They've sold us OS sims with a prim limit of 3750 prims and no script limit, which is perfectly appropriate. Let's say they sold us a bucket. Now, you have a bucket that you can carry around. What's the most natural thing to do with that bucket? You put water in it, right?

Oh wait! No! If you start putting water in your bucket, we have to charge you more for the bucket! We didn't want you to actually use the bucket, we wanted you to sit there and stare at its lovely capacity. For 75 bucks a month.



A lot of people are threatening to leave LL now if this goes through, but think about it: LL has tried to do this once, what is to stop them from exercising the same kind of stuff in other areas, even if they do relent on this? I think LL has dealt themselves a much larger blow by even announcing this change than they may realize. To anyone with simple logic, this change doesn't make sense. So what if an open space sim shares a CPU with 3 other OS sims? That just means the OS sim can handle a little less than one fourth of the content of a regular sim just as well as a normal sim can. OS sims don't take any more processing power than a normal sim. If you take four empty OS sims, what do you have? The equivalent of one large empty sim.

OpenLife Grid sells full sims for 89 USD, and 59 USD a month. Not only that, but that full sim gets 45,000 prims! A Second Life Openspace Sim costs 250 USD to set up, and they want to raise the monthly fee from 75 to 125 USD a month. What's wrong with this picture?

I've read a hell of a lot of this threat and can see peoples opinion. This simply appears to be a very bad move and yes as some have some have suggested a very dubious one too... The price of a OS sim was lowered, it's limits increased and naturally everyone bought one for whatever purpose. Increasing the tier now by 50USD is a nice 1200USD per sim per annum... I wonder how many people fell for the OS cheap solution to create a perfect home .... 1000 ... 10000 .. maybe more .... WOW during this economic ressesion that's a very nice profit. In reality this is gonna harm absolutely everyone. OS sim owners do not want to leave their sims and go back to the ugly mainland at the same time cannot afford to buy a full sim ... unless there is a commercial reason there isn't a great deal of use for 15000 prims... it's silly. People use OS sims simply to offset the cost of full price sims... My partner manages 6 OS sims .. all are carefully monitored very low use residential houses for ppl to have some privacy while not on the full spec sim they are connected to. Working as an IT networking professional I can understand resourcing issues but increasing the tier fee across the board is a nice way to make a very tidy profit, it does not address the issue of resourcing .... unless ofcourse less OS sims require less resources! Yes that will work but it's a very strange way to resolve a capacity issue ... and I know for a fact if I approached my RL job in that manner I would be sacked. There are measures set in SL to identify high resource utilization.... they should be used and adapted if required.... I am sure there are residents running high resource clubs & malls that are breaking all TOS ... but to increase the monthly tier charges for all is ludicrous and will surely lose subscribers and you will be left with empty servers ... even doing nothing they cost money and that cannot be paid in lindens.

using the figures that jack quoted in that chat, an open sim uses 50% of the cpu, not the 25% they expected. most of that will be to do with rezzing the sim itself just because it's low prim doesn't reduce the number of processes and resources needed just to create and maintain it.

If that 1500 prim/250 scripts figure that jack mentioned is what they're looking at, then it means anything above that is over-use by their new standards.

They don't have the tools to manage memory allocation or resource allocation anywhere on the grid and haven't indicated they're going to invest any time or money in developing it.

In the end, you can choose to accept that they don't know what they're doing and try to compensate for it (and still get screwed over by them when they feel like it) or you can carry on with what you're currently doing and enjoy yourself until either it's time to pull the plug because the rate increase does come in or they decide to manage this some other way.

my suggestion is to enjoy. you're not doing ll any favours by trying to hide their incompetency and they won't thank you for it or even acknowledge you're doing it.

We are looking for answers, Where is Jack or any spokesman who should be representing Linden labs.