Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden

No of course not! low usage sims ..... 15,000 divided by 4 ..... makes one full sim. How can Linden claim hugh usage????? 3,750 prims is 3,750! How many prims do you need to make an open space water??????? errrr, none!

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Spacexcape Bridges

That question needs answering and it would not be difficult for any Linden, even the missing Jack to simple issue a statement confirming that.

As I posted way back, if Jack is unavailable he has a responsibility to his customers to delegate responsibility to another Linden to answer. Thats management 101, he fails.

Snowflake is doing a excellent proxy job by making people think through some things but the fact remains the Lindens (collective guilt) are deliberately ignoring everyone as usual. Jack's talk in SL? he nor any other Linen didnt link to it in here for members.

) thank you Katt )

She hopes it will send people back to her rental business.

It is therefore important to understand what these regions are; they are provided for light use only, not for building, living in, renting as homes or use for events. As a stretch of open water for boating or a scenic wooded area they are fine, but we do not advise more serious use than this and will not respond to performance issues reported should you not use them in this way.
http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/09/21/information-about-openspaces-void-regions/#more-326


specifically right there. I've seen tons with clubs, alot of scripting and so on.

Openlife Grid, sighs not cross platform us Mac Users get left behind again

we do not advise more serious use than this and will not respond to performance issues reported should you not use them in this way.

You can use the Cool Viewer or Hippo Viewer or even the regular Second Life one to get onto these other grids, just need to change the login URI.

Skip to about halfway down this page for one way to do it:
http://openlifegrid.com/LearningCenter/OpenlifeWiki/tabid/58/topic/Getting%20Started/Default.aspx

Thank the person who rented it to you without explaining what it was.

1 user Agreed.

No thank the people who sold them with reckless abandon. Thank the people who doubled the prim count, thank the people who allowed them to be placed anywhere on the grid, thank the people who celebrated how well sales were going in a blog post and re-emphasised the pricing and what a wonderful product they were. Thank the people who until yesterday were apparently using openspaces for purposes other than open waterways and trees.

Who the heck would put an open waterway in the middle of nowhere? This really shouldn't be that hard to grasp. Linden Lab knew damn well how they were being used.

Who the heck would put an open waterway in the middle of nowhere? This really shouldn't be that hard to grasp.

While I am glad you have the ability to cut and paste this has been hashed over and over. IF Linden Labs didn't want them to be used for anything other than this description why did they remove the placement requirement? What good is a single sim in the middle of the grid, IF it is to comply with the statement above. THAT statement was written when OS were on class 4 servers, they supported half the prims they fdo now and you had to buy 4 at a time AND they were to be placed next to your full sim.

Also LL has used these same OS sims for other purposes in their new continent. Not a very clear message, eh? But the "holier than thou" crowd here wants to trumpet a dated statement. WOOT!

Thanks for sharing. Isn't it nice to share discussions without attacking people personally?

Do you have a source for 1/2 the logins being campers?

Does it really cost LL 67% more to run 4 openspace sims than 1 regular sim?

I'd really like to know the answer to that...

[4:40] Jack Linden: Diamond: for us as a business and for the many customers affected by poor performance as Openspaces scale up
[4:40] Clubside Granville: Jack, would it be fair to say that changes made to the OpenSpace regions based on projected performance increases from Havok 4 and MONO were not as generous as expected?
[4:42] Jack Linden: Clubside, it's more that load levels on these regions has been far higher than their intended purpose. We've had Openspaces for a long while now, but after the Land Store v2 opened, this issue got very quickly worse
[4:42] Coal Edge: You made it easier for people to buy them, and cheaper too, was it not anticipated for them to grow in popularity?
[4:44] Jack Linden: Coal: of course we hoped they would be popular, and they were, but the load level has shot up. and that means effectively that 2 Openspaces can cause more load than 1 normal region, which makes them not just cheap, but unviable.
[4:46] Rene Erlanger: its called human nature.....you give them 3750 prims to build with, they will go up to the max.
[4:46] Jack Linden: Rene: it's not overnight, it's 2 bill dates away more or less. (60+ days). I know it's a significant hit, but we felt it was the right step to take.
[4:46] Margot LaSalle: Jack, do tell us HOW raising tiers will result in less abuse? By driving people, OUT of openspaces?
[4:47] Jack Linden: Stephen, effects of a product like this on our back end systems do not come to light instantly - it has been a developing situation that become more pressing in September as we started to see performance being affected by Openspaces
[4:48] Jack Linden: Margot: there are two sides to this. One is about correct use, the other is about us financially recognising the extra costs in supporting this product
[4:48] Stephen Psaltery: Jack, why were hard limits not designed into them? The past has proven that people DONT respect soft limits. Don't you think it was naive to assume they would?
[4:49] Jack Linden: Stephen; that would have been ideal, yes.
[4:49] Master Quatro: you simply don't give a damn about any of us clients that have purchased so many sims and make up so much of your revenue
[4:50] Jack Linden: Master: try to keep this constructive please. Of course we care about our customers. And many of those customers are getting a poor experience right now because of this issue.
[4:52] Jack Linden: Stephen: I totally understand the frustration. And we'll be reading every piece of feedback we get and considering every option available, as we always do.
[4:53] Muli Basiat: LL is in financial trouble - look at their stock
[4:53] Jack Linden: Muli: no we are not. we're a privately owned company
[4:55] Jack Linden: yes, that is why I'm here - to talk to as many people as possible and get your feedback.
[4:56] Jack Linden: SexyAnn.. free conversions to normal regions is an option. We'll give that some thought if it would help
[4:56] Careltje Phoenix: JACK does this feedback change any of the plans allready been made ?
[4:57] Careltje Phoenix: jack please awnser . will this feedback change any of the plans allready been made ?
[4:57] Jack Linden: Careltje; feedback is essential, of course. the problems are clear. if it makes sense for us to change tack, as with any area of policy, we would review it.
[4:57] Coal Edge: and conversions do not help those of us who bought them for actual personal uses, I own 2, so that does not help me
[4:58] Jack Linden: Coal: interesting question. I'd have to look into that
[4:59] Jack Linden: Clubside.. yes. the 4 openspaces on a CPU share not just the cpu, but also the Memory for all 16 on that server, and the bandwidth for all 16 too
[4:59] Jack Linden: a very loaded openspace can and does impact all 16 on that server if it's bad enough
[5:01] Jack Linden: okay so here is a question; do you think us pinning prim counts down to say 1500, and limiting script count to 250, would be acceptable if the price stayed as it now? I'm not suggesting this is possible, but I'm interested in your opinions
[5:03] Jack Linden: Simone: that is certainly possible
[[5:05] Jack Linden: Equinox: currently we don't technically have that feature, as estate owners can reset it
[5:05] Jack Linden: Pippen, it was just a number as part of a theorteical question.
[5:06] Jack Linden: Coal: many are already way past 1875 prims.
[5:07] Simone Stern: Conversion back to full sim for free.
[5:07] Jack Linden: We'll look at that
[5:08] Jack Linden: Careltje: both are important.
[5:09] Jack Linden: Equinox: let me try to explain..
[5:10] Jack Linden: we have been selling OS regions as a quarter of a normal region. But the land area is the same. So, lets say normal regions have a load of 1, you'd expect Openspaces if used as originally intended to have a load of 0.25. But in fact they have a load of over 0.5
[5:10] Jack Linden: So that really adds up to a lot of extra load on servers with 16 Openspaces on
[5:10] Jack Linden: Rather than an Openspace server = Normal server in load, it's actually double
[5:11] Jack Linden: Rachel: this is an emerging issue, as the number of Openspaces increased, the back end load issues start to be more clear
[5:12] Jack Linden: Hard limits for all areas, such as textures, traffic, content etc.. aren't supported currently in the simulator. It's an option down the line but would take time to build and QA
[5:13] Jack Linden: Dimentox: you mean extra charges based on load? That's in interesting one, but hard to do fairly as load varies continually
[5:14] Jack Linden: Simone: yes.. lets keep talking. the price rises are 2 months away.
[5:15] Jack Linden: Stephen: despite your frustration on this issue, do you think we have become better at being open and discussing these issues in advance of them taking place?
[5:16] Jack Linden: Simone: exactly. I would hope we all want the best for Second Life ultimately.
[5:18] Jack Linden: Master: I can't promise action or change in a meeting like this and you wouldn't expect me to, but I can promise to listen and to go back and discuss the community's views with my colleagues.
[5:19] Jack Linden: JenniferBugg: yes.. you should feel able to tell us how you feel.
[5:20] Jack Linden: cheers Dimentox
[5:21] Jack Linden: Equinox: to fully bolt down the various usage areas of an Openspace technically would take time. But i've taken note of your views on that
[5:21] Jack Linden: Master: that simply isn't true. the new mainland areas are a drop in the ocean compared to the volume of estate land sold each month
[5:21] Jack Linden: it's a blip
[5:23] Jack Linden: I hear you JenniferBugg. I'm getting slammed in IMs, emails and this chat, doing my best to reply to as much as I can
[5:25] Jack Linden: River: do you mean disabling estate land sales completely?
[5:25] Jack Linden: for openspaces
[[5:26] Jack Linden: Stephen, agreed, this is a discussion. Let's see where it goes
[5:26] Jack Linden: King: that's a bold suggestion!
[5:28] Jack Linden: River: I know this is hard, but in all things like this we're basically walking a line trying to balance our own real world business needs with the needs and wished of our customers; it makes decisions like this very difficult
[5:28] Jack Linden: But we do see it as a discussion, and we do listen
[5:29] Jack Linden: no-one has ever sold something like Openspaces before. All of this is new territory, so there are no real world models we can apply to know how things will progress.
[5:30] Jack Linden: by the way.. i see a ton of you have direct IMed me.. apologies that I haven't replied. too much text!
[5:31] Jack Linden: Coal: we had not expected the demand or load increase; it would have been hard to predict
[5:37] Jack Linden: okay, so lets summarise a little: I hear you on OS limits, and I hear you on the other options like free conversions. I won't obviously be making any promises in this discussion which is an ad-hoc one because I wanted to get as much feedback as I could.. but I will take all of this away and discuss it within the Lab. *if* there are outcomes or changes, then we should make those clear sooner rather than later
[5:37] Jack Linden: I completely take on board how significant this is to many of you.

http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2008/10/jack-jacks-the.html

Yes Snoflake, all good informatician or ones with good internet knoledge know this fact...
they have prodict it last year! bots, for camping, notice maker, ads etc...

some have true big Central of sl bots they can make $$$ with that...with 200-500 comp, and only couple guys...

I popped over to openlife and made some clothes and a cowboy had. Still rough. !

And since we are advocating full disclosure here, do you also rent out openspaces? And if so, do you educate your renters about what they are and what LL states they are to be used for?

As strange as it sounds, we are reacting exactly how LL wants us to act - believe it or not.

Lets go through the numbers...

Assume for a moment there are 800 Open Sims on 200 servers - and those servers are "bogged down" due to overuse. At $75 per Sim per month, they are making $60,000 a month.

Now - if they raise the price to $125. and lose 33% of their clients, income is now $66,000. and they can redistribute the remaining 528 sims across 176 of the 200 servers at THREE each rather than FOUR sims per server.

10% income increase, 33% better performance, and 24 extra servers ready for 72 new customers.

Like it or not, it's a win-win for the lab. Even if NO ONE quits, they increase income by $40k for new servers. Bottom line is it doesn't matter what we do... so make your choices based on your own situation and needs - not whether it's right or wrong.

I know, it stinks.

BC