Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden
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Firelight Simca
Registered User
Join date: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 156
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10-29-2008 14:18
From: Chaz Longstaff Purely in the interest of enhancing people's bulletin board usage skills, I offer the following elaboration on how to get to this magic button:
- in the left hand column where the poster's name appears, click on that name
- from the drop-down list of choices that appears, choose "View Public Profile...
- about half-way down that profile page, in the left-hand side of the blue bar, look for the link called "Add xxx to Your Ignore List"
- You'll get a screen asking you to confirm; click the confirm button.
- You are done. Thank you very much. |
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Firelight Simca
Registered User
Join date: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 156
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10-29-2008 14:23
From: Kirstyn Meredith In order for you to get a return you have to sell your OS for $350 just to break even (initial setup fee + transfer fee applied to the original owner's account).
The new owner will "score" a new OS at a reduced rate with a recurring cost of $125, $50 more than what they would pay for the same amount of prim on a private estate with better performance--without "abuse" lingering over them for using prims made available to them to use.
In the end, you still pay more for an OS per capita than you do a private estate.
The only thing you "gain" with OS:
*More land space
*More lag
*More time under the "abuse microscope" for using abilities/features LL provides for you
So how is this a wise investment again? Sorry, but I can't see the average person paying for land at a greater cost than private region prices for restricted land. The return is zero because they simply won't sell.
Do the math.
1 region = $295 tier for 15k prims
4 OS sims = $500 tier for 15k prims
To be honest, this isn't even my argument. I don't care about the price increase, I think it's a smart business move that doesn't continue what it was originally doing--killing mainland and on private region real estate markets. My issue is not grandfathering not only those who made an investment with no possible option of making any type of return, but also the OS owners before the "sale". Where is the fairness in that when there are grandfathered class 5 sims still?
I welcome anyone to educate me on how this change adds any type of value or even an incentive to maintain an OS sim.
The fact is there isn't supposed to be any value to OS sims. They're there to be used as an accent to an already existing region/estate. Instead of correcting those who have abused the intent of OS sims, LL's "police with money" now forces everyone who owns one to pay a higher cost, making OS sims even less of a financially attractive option to use as a region/estate enhancement; it's intended purpose.
It's simple, LL doesn't have the manpower to police the grid let alone ensure that OS sims are being used as intended. They now will rely on the new cost to kill the market (which it already is doing), putting the loss in the pocket of every single OS owner on the grid.
A loss based on their lack of ability to correct those abusing OS sims. Just to clarify, when I asked them, I was asking about full sims, and I assumed the same for Open Space sims. Also, mine are grandfathered so it's $195/month. I never bought any Open Space for the $250 price. I bought mine as a region/set of 4 a couple of years ago. I personally think that Open Space sims are worthless. I'm just trying to figure out if it is worthwhile to convert my grandfathered ones back into a grandfathered full and sell that. Firelight |
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Alco Boozehound
Registered User
Join date: 29 Oct 2008
Posts: 1
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Some data points to take into account
10-29-2008 14:26
All this is public Info from the WEB .. recovered with about 60mins surfing and a bit of google and wiki As we all know Linden Lab is privately owned and is funded by PEOPLE Mitch Kapor - his latest startup, Foxmarks, based in San Francisco http://www.foxmarks.com/Mitches Personal Blog http://blog.kapor.com/Probably "only" worth about 70 Million USD Ray Ozzie - Chief Software Architect at Microsoft - hidden in Bills Shoes so cant find much about him Bezos Expedition http://www.bezosexpeditions.com/ created just for Jeffs personal inverstments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_BezosFounder of Amazon .... personally worth 8.2 Billion USD VC & COMPANIES - all big ones .. well established with huge successful portfolios Catamount Ventures Jed Smith - Managing Director Mark Silverman - Managing Director Benchmark Capital http://www.benchmark.com/Looks like the Partners who does Linden labs is Bill Gurley Email: [email]bgurley@benchmark.com[/email] Omidyar Network http://www.omidyar.net/Pierre Omidyar - Founder .. FWIW was also the founder of ebay personally worth about 7.7 Billion USD Globespan Capital Partners http://www.globespancapital.com/Difficult to see who is the Partner or Board member on LL These are all big hitters aka worth a lot and are probably NOT bothered about the noise that is LL's financials. so I'd hesitate a guess .. this is not investor triggered ..... |
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Boaz Sands
Registered User
Join date: 21 May 2007
Posts: 37
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I welcome the debate
10-29-2008 14:31
From: Snowflake Fairymeadow It is your opinion that I am not contributing, probably because I am not contributing what you want to hear. Sorry but I don't have a magic answer for you. I'm not going to pay for your sim out of my own pocket, but if you feel that I have nothing to contribute there is an ignore button available. Hope that helps. Quite honestly I welcome Snowflakes comments....If a real Linden doesnt have the gumption to respond to us then at least she has the guts to carry on a debate with us. and I believe that in answering her points we are probably answering the same points the Linden's would raise. So go ahead Snowflake your comments help me try counter the points the Lindens would make and besides I enjoy healthy debate and sharing of opinions |
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Vivienne Schell
Registered User
Join date: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 85
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10-29-2008 14:31
Right, this seems to be a lonely LL management decision. Wonder if the investors will love the extremely bada`` PR show celebrated by those "internet geeks" in SF.
He he...
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HalfPint Camus
Registered User
Join date: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 21
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10-29-2008 14:36
the way I see it, y'all made your beds by abusing it, now you must lie in it
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AMX Sporleder
Registered User
Join date: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 1
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10-29-2008 14:37
Thank you LL
I taking my money over to open grid and Business.
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Southern Bonde
Registered User
Join date: 5 Aug 2008
Posts: 3
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10-29-2008 14:39
The honest user? Give me a break. Any sim can be 'abused' by scripts or overloaded with avatars and their 10,000 rendering costs.
If LL saw this in the making for the last 2 months, why not address the problem of use? Instead they condoned any and every use of the OS. Now their solution is to charge more to allow you to continue 'abusing'.
Get real. LL's main source of income is through land sales be it mainland or any type of sim. OS renting allowed people a chance to have a nice place without directly dealing with LL. LL just can't stand the fact of someone is making a buck before they do.
It's not about 'abuse' as they have said nothing as to changing how they are used. Just if you want to use them, it will cost more.
The real abuse is what LL is trying to force people to do - pay more for what they already condone or pay for a premium acct so you can also pay mainland tiers. They are trying to make mainland cheaper by dictating the land market under the guise of an abuse that can continue - for $50 more a month.
They wont hear the words any of us write. But what you do with your actions will be heard. I will not be a pawn in a corporate greed convoluted excuse.
So by the same token, with all of these OS sims being abandoned the loads will surely be reduced. Think LL will go back and reduce the fees? Don't kid yourself.
Make your stand with your actions, it's all they will hear. It's not a hard one to make - integrity and ethics are not variables in the real world. SL is just an extension of RL, not a replacement. Sorry LL, I don't want to play any more.
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Michel Runningbear
Registered User
Join date: 5 Mar 2008
Posts: 7
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Dissapointed in Response
10-29-2008 14:42
You know - I'm just as upset as everyone else about this sim increase. If it goes through I will probably be giving up my Sim and may be giving up SL. But what I am noticing is that when this announcement was made - it was stated to post on this thread because Jack would be responding. I have searched the logs and have yet to see any posts or responses to any of the comments - good, bad or otherwise. I know some of us have posted in anger - myself included - but some people have posed some very interesting questions and made some reasonable suggestions that I would like to see taken into consideration.
I know they have got to be watching and reading but they are not giving any indication that they are considering what anyone is saying or if they are just sitting around the board room laughing about all of this.
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Scooter Foxtrot
Registered User
Join date: 4 Sep 2008
Posts: 1
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The nail
10-29-2008 14:43
I am a resident on a private estate. I am also fairly new to SL and just started to sell enough to make up for some of my existence in-world. Honestly, I don't think my existance will remain in SL after January. SL does not offer enough to me to justify getting my tiers increased by the amounts that are going to come down the pipe.
To me, it comes down to one thing. Enforce your rules... don't accommodate the violators. If someone was to tell me that they are just going to just tax some crimes in RL because so many people are committing them... I would bust a gut and vote my officials out of office. This is what you are proposing. Charge more because people are breaking the rules... rather than enforce the rules.
I would rather be told that I have to move because my estate owner was breaking the rules and has to shut down the island; rather than being told I have to pay more money because my estate owner is breaking the rules.
Personally I find the whole OpenSpaces concept a bit silly. WHO is going to pay that much money a month for something that they really cant use? one example I saw in the propaganda about what OS is for is that it can be used as a wilderness area. Um... how many prims do you think will be needed to make a sim full of trees, shrubs, wildlife? So essentialy what is now being said is that you can only have water there. For people to boat, etc... but not TOOOOOO many people. Limits limits limits.
If this goes through I figure probably 10-20% of the new owners and merchants will go away within the first couple months, and newbies to SL will be much slower to become owners, merchants, etc... because there is no entry level model for land ownership anymore. Unless you want a crippled 512 plot that you can pretty much only fit the prims of a cardboard box and maybe a bush to pee on -- and that will be in the middle of an adult sim that you wouldnt bring a friend to visit.
I am going to start buying suitcases for my departure,
Scooter
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Brent Westland
Registered User
Join date: 26 May 2008
Posts: 8
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10-29-2008 14:45
Just have to post this though not directed related but I seen the chat log of Jack's SL chat and Anshes land lap dog was there talking how it seemed like it was a monoply am I the only one who finds the humor in that? Anshe has done her best to stamp at and out everyone in her path and are one of the main causes for this problem imo and they are gonna whine that LL has a monoply over them? rofl ya right
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Joshe Darkstone
Registered User
Join date: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 44
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cant see why not...
10-29-2008 14:46
From: Alco Boozehound These are all big hitters aka worth a lot and are probably NOT bothered about the noise that is LL's financials. so I'd hesitate a guess .. this is not investor triggered ..... Of course what i was saying is purely theoretical, based on entirely circumstantial evidence. my point was there there is a readily discernable pattern in their behavior, and a readily discernable point at which it started, and beyond that, some hints as to maybe why. They dont all have to be sitting around the table talking about SL to drive policy. People like that dont even necessarily have a single direct conversation about their investments. They have people for that. Those people do have marching orders tho, and when they make new investments, it comes with stipulations. Things like - focus on growing the bottom line, get your legal ducks in order, make room in the budget for the bean counter I will be sending over. Then the directives roll downhill, the investors need to see more growth, get me a plan... and there, sitting at the bottom of that foodchain, is Jack, with his hand raised. My company is going through this kind of negotiation right now, on an obviously lesser scale, and yes, it comes with a nice fat salary for a bean-counter, and the bean-counter comes with 1.5mil in debt financing  |
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Vic Arashi
Registered User
Join date: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 45
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10-29-2008 14:47
From: Boaz Sands Quite honestly I welcome Snowflakes comments....If a real Linden doesnt have the gumption to respond to us then at least she has the guts to carry on a debate with us.
and I believe that in answering her points we are probably answering the same points the Linden's would raise. So go ahead Snowflake your comments help me try counter the points the Lindens would make and besides I enjoy healthy debate and sharing of opinions Agreed. I don't agree with her but she is entitled to an opinion. Vic |
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Dallas Seaton
SIMchantment Islands
Join date: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 57
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10-29-2008 14:49
From: Alco Boozehound All this is public Info from the WEB .. recovered with about 60mins surfing and a bit of google and wiki... Globespan Capital Partners http://www.globespancapital.com/Difficult to see who is the Partner or Board member on LL Uhh, nice that you spent a whole hour searching google and wiki, but its all right there on the www.lindenlab.com corporate website in about 58 minutes less than an hour  - under "management" and "press releases" discussing the VC funding events. Specifically, with respect to Globespan: From: someone "When I first discovered Second Life, I was immediately impressed by the sophistication of this virtual world, especially the existence of a fully functioning, thriving economy," said Jonathan Seelig, Managing Director at Globespan Capital Partners. I look forward to being a part of its future growth." |
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Kirstyn Meredith
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Join date: 2 Jul 2008
Posts: 17
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10-29-2008 14:51
From: Firelight Simca I personally think that Open Space sims are worthless. I'm just trying to figure out if it is worthwhile to convert my grandfathered ones back into a grandfathered full and sell that.
Firelight IF you can convert it back to a grandfathered region. I think there's a purpose for OS, but the integrity of greedy land barons (whatever that means) leaves too much room for abuse. Is there really a problem with a single dwelling on one OS sim? I doubt it, and I don't think LL would be bothered by a single home on the beach or on the edge of a lake. |
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Bitova Loon
Registered User
Join date: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 16
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10-29-2008 14:52
From: HalfPint Camus the way I see it, y'all made your beds by abusing it, now you must lie in it Half pint come over to one of our 12 OS's .. and tell me how I Abuse them .. please .. please do coz I need to know |
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Margie Snookums
Registered User
Join date: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 15
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Ya'll sounds like one too many avatar!
10-29-2008 14:54
From: HalfPint Camus the way I see it, y'all made your beds by abusing it, now you must lie in it Shame that the masses have to be punished for the sins of a few. How much abuse have we reported in the past on mainland with little to nothing done about the abusers? Specifically land owners floating 36 bots (when sim max is 40!!) on a platform @ 400 ft with security orb to protect from nosy avatars like me. I still have the pics to prove it! Lucky for me the twit didn't configure his security orb to restrict my camera from zooming in and taking the pics. I for one will never own land on mainland again. If abusers were dealt with accordingly, we wouldn't be here bitching to the masses. I will be waiting to see what happens before I abandon my OS. If I do -- I shall remain homeless for the rest of my SL life -- whatever that happens to be -- or not. |
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Joshe Darkstone
Registered User
Join date: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 44
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jacks early response
10-29-2008 14:55
From: Snowflake Fairymeadow thank you snowflake  so from that log: [4:52] Jack Linden: Stephen: I totally understand the frustration. And we'll be reading every piece of feedback we get and considering every option available, as we always do. Jack: Why would you make this announcement first and then say you are going to listen and consider every option? Why tell us you are going to raise the tiers beyond all possible value before you... listen? Pose the problem, have the discussion, take your solution after you've considered the impact and the reaction of your customers, Not before. Are you all a bunch of 4th graders in there? I should think that this would have been obvious. You were able to manage it wrt to mainland cleanup. |
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Bjorn Delphin
Registered User
Join date: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 1
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10-29-2008 14:55
I think this is an outrage.
I only recently relocated to what i thought to be a nice sim. It was told tome it was a low prim sim, which suited me just fine. Nobody ever explained me the concept of "open sims" nor that they were not intended for living on them. I just spent much time and effort to build and landscape to customise my place. And now it seems we will be forced to leave them.
Thank you very much LL for once agian ruining my SL experience
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Gooden Uggla
Bartender
Join date: 13 Feb 2007
Posts: 11
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The Question no one has seemed to ask...
10-29-2008 15:02
Does it really cost LL 67% more to run 4 openspace sims than 1 regular sim?
I'd really like to know the answer to that...
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Sophia Debevec
Registered User
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 27
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10-29-2008 15:04
I'm very disappointed that there is only one post of response to the 2300+ posts on this! Just in case anyone has missed it Jack did reply ... once, you can find it here: /invalid_link.htmlAnd if anyone at the lab is reading this i will refer you to the seemingly neglected "Tao Of Linden" http://lindenlab.com/about/taoAn excerpt: "Report on your own progress frequently and to everyone". So Jack / Linden Lab, where is the progress ..... you'd really better be considering a u turn on this one (perhaps talking to your technical team when trying to solve technical problems rather than your accounting team might be a good start). |
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Tessie Gray
Registered User
Join date: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 18
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hmmm
10-29-2008 15:05
From: Gooden Uggla Does it really cost LL 67% more to run 4 openspace sims than 1 regular sim?
I'd really like to know the answer to that... 125 x 4 = 500 295 x 1 = 295 75 x 4 = 300 hmmm |
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WaL Krugman
Registered User
Join date: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 38
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what is the abuse??
10-29-2008 15:09
still cant understand what is the abuse here??? are they putting 15000 prims on a 3750 prims land??? why do we keep talking about some or few who abused the openspace... so using 3750 prims out of 3750 considered as an abuse? or is it that LL could not believe that they did a right move when the offered those OS for fair price and made us happy and now they regret it ??
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Spacexcape Bridges
pissed off
Join date: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 104
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some simple maths
10-29-2008 15:09
No of course not! low usage sims ..... 15,000 divided by 4 ..... makes one full sim. How can Linden claim hugh usage????? 3,750 prims is 3,750! How many prims do you need to make an open space water??????? errrr, none! Watch out for OpenLife Grid ... it will take over Second Life within one year. Sign up now! Spacexcape Bridges From: Gooden Uggla Does it really cost LL 67% more to run 4 openspace sims than 1 regular sim?
I'd really like to know the answer to that...
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Spacexcape Bridges
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Boaz Sands
Registered User
Join date: 21 May 2007
Posts: 37
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Scary
10-29-2008 15:10
From: Tessie Gray 125 x 4 = 500
295 x 1 = 295
75 x 4 = 300 hmmm What scares me is will this increase just open the door on an increase on the full sims Will they next say that to keep things even they have to raise full sims from 295 to 500 tiers per month? If so then I know I will be out of here |