Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden

This has probably been stated before, but I will weigh in with my thoughts, opinions & suggestions...

First, my experience:
My partner and I owned 2 full sims and 2 Open space sims. The two open space were designed as nature areas and never intended to bear any great load of traffic. However, a friend asked if they could have their wedding reception there.. and guess what? It worked really well. Little lag, beautiful surroundings etc. So.. when people from the reception approached us about renting an open space sim for their own residential use, we jumped on the opportunity to help them out, figuring how much "hurt" can a single family residence put on the server?

Yes, it was stated QUITE CLEARLY the intent of Open Space Sims, and we refused to pay heed, though we knew better.

It seems essential to be able to tell if we are truly burdening the server with the way our open space sims are being used. Even the nature sims may be taxing it with the scripted animal "life" we have enjoying the area.

An equitable solution, if this truly IS the problem, would be as I've heard others say:
1) Allow those owners willing to upgrade from OS sims to full sims w/out the penalty of conversion- only the difference in base price.
2) Sell OS in groups of 4 and keep them in the same box with the price equal to the cost of a full sim. If someone already owns 4 OS sims - offer to combine into one full sim or to put all in the same box.
3) Survey the OS sims and those found overburdening the servers innact a fair use tax after due warning.

I hope communication between LL's and the SL community can work things out in a fair manner that isn't detrimental to the "user experience". We enjoy the lands we've built and would love to see them prosper for many years.

Very happy to hear something from LL and even more so because it seems that they've indeed seem to have listened to what we have to say and have changed their tone from a very severe 'this abuse has to stop, whatever it takes' to a more 'let's work this out together' sort of vibe.

Personally, considering that my RL and SL partner and me have a lot more room on our OpenSpace sim and are not bothered by clueless neighbours with banlines and temprezzers and ugly builds anymore, I do not object to paying a reasonable tier for our place. Actually, we do already: those $75 US are the tier for 1/4 sim. But hey, like I said, we got lotsa space so lets settle for $100 US. And I wouldn't even mind paying that tier directly to LL instead of to the owner of our main sim, just as long as we can stay where we are - though in that case it would be nice to have full ownership, since I would be the one that's billed.

So I was wondering: how would LL feel about the SimLite concept? Sims that don't offer the prims and stuff the big guys have, but still have all the perks like terraforming and fixed daylight settings? Coz' let's face it: the whole OpenSim story has shown that there is indeed a market for that kind of land.

Just my two cents, that will most likely drown in the avalanche of postings in this thread. But i wanted to post it nevertheless.

So 64 1k parcels on a regular sim is ok, but 4 parcels on a open space sim isn't.

Hmm....

Firstly, I for one would like to see exact standards as to go by for script performance and usage on a OS sim so we have something to gauge by. IF there exists EXACT quotes on what this is so one can tell from statistics bar or estate tools, please let us know here.

2nd - Why penalize those who have multiples of 4 OS, if they can be housed on the same server ??

3rd IF there are different usages for them or added perks adjust the pricing accordingly

Xay, I would strongly urge you to wait for LL to formalize their decision. I definately believe that usage under the original terms will, in the end, be maintained and supported. They really have little choice considering the backlash.

That said it sounds like you are making this decision in full knowledge of that, in which case it is a complete and utter shame that LL's lack of any semblance of discussion has driven creative souls off the grid. Ill take my own tour of your estate to get an impression of what you are parting with.

With this latest post it looks like the "abuse of resources" claim is going by the wayside. Replaced by "People are getting more use and value out of OS than we thought they would. So we are raising prices."


"And we’re not saying that everyone is abusing resources. We are saying that the use has changed, and continues to do so as people find more creative ways to use them. So the revised pricing is about recognising that change of use and the additional costs and value associated with it."


It isn't the price increase so much that makes me mad. It is the constant lying and two faced answers we are getting from LL.

First of all I want to thank the Lindens for supporting the people that made them so much money over the past years by screwing them royally. In addition I also want to thank them for supporting the Educational Institutions that are looking for a way to use SL as a teaching tool but supporting SL by bringing countless students here. Also want to thank them for the knee jerk reaction of punishing everyone instead going after the people that are abusing the OS usage.

I know I am not a big developer of sims, but my one OS and island region was set up to show off SL to other educators and encourage use of SL in the classroom. It appears that the Lindens are not into fostering a community atmosphere of growth and support for their supporters.

I am dismayed and disheartened by the new policy forcing me to rethink my plans and usage of SL in education.

2.456 responses, 1 reply from Jack. This is not a discussion. This is LL laying down the gauntlet, and everyone taking a huge bite of a sh*t sandwich.

Some time ago, just before the first major price hike of private sims, I bought into the land thing. I worked my way slowly from 1 to 2 to 4 to 7 sims of great people. I was small time, and only reinvested earnings back into the system to grow my lands, and offer some 70ish residents an awesome place to call home. Rarely, if ever, did I have more than 1 plot open. We laughed, played, had a great time. Price increases hit, and the expansion stopped. We still loved it. We had our place. We had a great time there, and learned a lot and made a lot of good friends.

A little mouse told me that it was time to get out . My mouse was dead on. I sold all 7 of my estates to a nice couple, whom I feel eternally sorry for now. I made a fair bit on the sale of them, slightly more than I had paid, which was great. Nothing to write home to mom about, nothing to go on a major shopping spree. A few bucks.

Shortly there after, the price fell out from underneath the new owners. I read in amazement at what LL had done to those people's 'investments', and felt utter shock. Ok, some of you say eh, its a set up fee. No, its not. Its a lot of money to small time operators (even moreso to the larger ones) that isnt easily recooped.

Now LL comes along with a great new shiney. Lets all go ape nuts over it, price it at $250, tell them heck yeah! 3750 prims! Put em anywhere ya want em! And wow. Someone actually *DID* ! a couple months later, LL realizes that "Hmmm.... these things are selling like hotcakes. Lets do something about that ! "

In comes Jack. Jack may not be the policy maker. May be some poor schmo that got the unenviable task of passing on the message, but he's the mailman.

"Thanks everyone! The new open sims are selling great ! You guys really like em eh ? Well..... Since ya like em so much, let's raise the price on em ! How's another $50 a month sound to ya?" (Not counting exchange rates, Vat, or other crap you off-USA soil people get the priviledge to pay along with that $50 bucks).

And they wonder why there is such uproar. Tell the people they can have 1 thing at 1 price. When enough have sold, let's sink the hooks in deeper than the $250 and now tell them that they have to cough up another 2/3 to keep em !

Jack, I had great respect for you in my days. You always took care of my silly needs, my silly requests, my sometimes oddball questions at weird hours. I loved what you did for the concierge community, and I actually considered coming back into the fray that is SL shortly.

Today, after reading through the thousands of responses, seeing nothing more than a short blurb about "Oh yeah, we're reading it, we'll have a discussion", there has been total silence from the peanut gallery. Nothing. Nada. Zip. A few edits by Katt. yippee.

Babe Daligdig, Im sorry I ever sold you those sims. I wish I could have taken them back had I known that LL would have so abruptly put the screws to you like they did. And in total amazement, I sit here watching them do it yet again-to every sim owner that took their hard earned cash/credit, and invested in this dream.

Lindens have lost any credibility they managed to salvage from the last major fiasco to alot of people. It wont be recoverable. Too much in such a short period of time for the normal person to swallow, blink, and move on. I read page after page of good people being forced out because, yet again, the word of a Linden is worth its weight in dog feces. Not a penny more.

Much love to old friends and sorry to see you go through this blatant disreguard for not only your fiancial wellbeing, but your sense of worth to LL as a whole

Bit

Formerly known as Holyhell Cassell of Cassell Realty.

First of all...all I can say is Pfft, to the "well, we didnt intend the openspace to be used for this"....duh, of coarse they knew it would, as many people in SL already use the sims in other than ways intended. This grandfather attempt to raise our sim rates, as well as a nazy-like, "you cant do that" approach, is totally looney and misguided. I bought my sim to live on, build on, make it beautiful, and have others appreciate it, not to have the friggin thing there to just go and sleep in and the friggin Lindens, whom I support with my hard-earned money, tell me what I can build and what I can not. Shit, I dont build in sandbox cause of griefer attacks and getting my shit messed with, and also because I build very originally- People rip shit off, and ideas.
I realize the new Stuffed suit CEO is all about making money here, but I wonder if he has ANY friggin experiance, other than telling people they need to do this and that cause he's in charge, here. LLs has in the past, in the 10 months Ive been in SL, been good and bad with decisions. This latest decision has to be the absolute worst. Also, Ive talked to a lot of land companies who will not be selling any more open-space, because they are now feeling cheated, with customers leaving. ALSO- LLs needs to be reminded that people DO NOT need a place to live in SL. IT IS A CHOICE we make, because we want something of our own thats special, other than freebies, fancy clothes, and penises/clits, and sex beds. If people want to use em for business practice- they should be allowed for light use.(i.e., not a sim with 50 stores, lol)
Also, the evil sherriff of Nottingham, Jack Linden and his merry band of shareholders and Lindens, need to realize that the times of the wealthy paying insane amounts for Sims and sim uses are over, bigtime. LLs has indeed failed at the business end as far as attracting big companies. The rock stars who used to own the clubs and other places, are, for the most part, no longer around. When I began SL, I was appalled at how the areas of business were empty...constantly. I found superb things and clothing from these places too.
So, "they (happy orchestral music) merrily skip and jump, over hill and dale, singing happy, merry songs, about the sims and lands, they've happened to burn and wrong. They rob from the rich, and give to the money ditch- from the peasents, driven like hunted pheasents, from thier homes and sims agone.
Ohh merry merry Lindens, laughing and joking, wearing the Lincoln green; where are you now, where are you going to go, when finally the SL forest slows with nothing anymore to show.
*Apologies- it was the best i could do at the time

I tend to agree, you paid for it and you use it for prim space..its called getting what you paid for, but you are not the only one, some bigger players are considering downsizing or leaving SL as it it just plainly too much money to pay out in this economic recession times..

What the....? Usage under the original terms? So if you accept that rip off, you would even accept the same for the regular SIM? If a day they wake up to tell us: i'm sorry we figured that those regular SIMS are taking more resources than expected, then from now you can use only 10.000 prims (instead of 15.000) and you can't run more than 1000 scripts... you would accept it without saying a word?
No i'm sorry, this is being a slave and accept any crazy conditions because they decided to increase their outcome.
The only and *only* solution(s) here, is to give BACK the entry prices for those that won't accept the new rules; convert back to regular SIM without paying theat 100$ for who converted em into 4 OS previously; or grandfathering the actualy OS owner and apply the new rules only to those that will purchase an OS from "tomorrow" (when the new rules will be applied).
These are the only acceptable conditions, any concession you would give to em today, would mean that you must live each day expecting a new "great idea", and tomorrow you will read a new blog entry that says: "The SIM fees are increasing from 295$ to $500 with no grandfather rule"... and at that point you must accept it, because you accepted the same s*it today.
No thanks i'm paying for 3500 prims, i've paied for 100 avs, nowhere i've read that my SIM would have been suspended or cancelled if i put a home instead of a forest on it, they only wrote: "these sim are INTENDED...", and *in fact* Linden Labs are using OS to build any sort of contents (living contents, not surrounding) exactly as me.
You wanna change the rule? Perfect, give to anyone their money back (if they wish) and we will say "good bye".

OMG

I cant believe this I just left the main land after a NIGHTMARE

I get a brand new sim and some OS sims and you bend me over

I want a refund

SL is dead this is the last straw it is no more fun to log in to SL ... Lets see how long it last with out content providers

bye people... it was fun

This is kind like obamas idea raise taxes in a depression HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH


The only fork up that was not LL fault was the gambling ban EVERY thing else is POOR management

It was fun now it is boring I am logging out for good

Creator of THE ORIGINAL Hot tub mall
Hot tubs will be free soon
film at 11

Ok I wish to reply to a few posts here...
Everybody, Remember that OS used to be sold in groups of 4, had a ridiculously low number of prims and costed twice the price..
It was a good move to allow OS to be purchased individually. May I remind you that, along with the guidelines on their "light use", Jack also added that Linden Lab would not answer or assume any responsibility for perfomance issues due to a different usage than what is was intended for an OS region, which I would consider a disclaimer, fair and square.
It is unlikely that anyone would have issued a complaint due to problems on their OS. and even if that were the case, I fail to understand why a price increase is presented so abruptedly and inevitable.

Lastly they can be owned by different people, if a communication proocess among the regions can be established. If you remember the postings Linden Lab talked about quad CPUs, which would allow up to 16 Openspaces sharing the same processor. This is a cost-effective way for LL to offer more with less ( hardware, expenditures etc etc) and I can see very slim possibilities of someone to purchase 16 OS regions altogether. Even if it were a Private Estate, with the scope of renting them out, would be a high risk to take in 16 regions all at the same time.

I hope you have a great plan for what you're going to do with all of that hardware as people begin to abandon their openspace sims. Personally, I will likely abandon all three of mine and hope that the increase in the remaining OS costs drive more people back to the full-sims (which, btw, were practically ruined when openspace sims were introduced).

End result - I'm out several hundred dollars in setup fees that I will never be able to recoup and Linden Labs is out 375USD/month in tier from me.

Brilliant move.

Maybe I'll at least be able to pick up some cheap hardware on ebay when LL has to liquidate it all.

I am new to SL. I friend introduced me and I have been on as another AV for a few months, but just started this AV with my partner so we could have the same last names. We joined the same day and was searching to purchase an Open Sim, but WE WILL NOT BUY an Open Sim Now, nor will we likly continue with SL. I am hearing great stories about another service like SL, and after seeing all this, we will probably move on and say GOD BYE to SL. By the way, there are 3 of us, me, my wife and my son.

We also have numerous friends who have decided to do the same. Good luck to those who choose to stay on SL, I am sure the land prices will go way down when 67% of the people leave SL.

I agree with you, 100 %

and my fellow residents, Saying that we should keep posting is because standard damage control in these situations is that people who "air their frustrations" are more likely to stay when they calmed down. It is, again, all basics. That is why LL is responding now and not earlier and announcing they will wait another few days. But like I said in my previous post, this is all basic damage control. a few pages further in the books one could read that this only works till a certain extend. The bigger the damage, the more customers will simply leave. LL underestimates the damage they are causing and forgotten they have little trust anyway because of previous actions. I am so afraid this is really the end of SL because of total mismanagement.

Companies simply cannot write business plans on such an unstable managed "platfrom" and if the residents are leaving frustrated in great numbers, for what reason companies should stay in SL. In the end the residents are the most important ones in SL. What gain is there for a company in SL if nobody is around?

** still shaking my head in total unbelieve**

You know...I can't think of a single RL business that thinks they can raise the price of something by 67%. The possible exception being the often dysfunctional oil and gas market.

Most RL businesses recognize that in order to succeed and prosper, they need to make partners of business associates and customers. Allow some sort of trust to develop in order to get through the inevitable rough spots in business relationships rather than become advisaries trying to see who can take the most advantage of each other.

LL, this isn't the way to build trust.

I was going to buy/rent an Open SIM from a friend that already has a SIM. I forward him the money, he gives me the new area. Simple enough. Well guess what, now instead of LL getting the $250 plus $75 a month, they are getting nothing. I guess I'm stuck on my regular isolated parcel with no increase in fees, meaning, no extra profit for Linden Labs.

Remember everyone, November 1st is Second Life Boycott Day, protesting this change. Though it may not change their minds, I'm sure the drop in profits will.

you laid down you're proposal/threat to the openspace sim owners and to the community as a whole.
I'm not one. I had hoped to rent one or buy one with a friend that owns a full sim. I won't be now. But after reading your latest blog post and knowing some of the other bad decisiosn you have made, i have a counter proposal for you.

I challenge you to do the best thing you can do for Linden Labs and the Second Life community. Put your resignation on your desk, dated and signed, by tomorrow morning.

I am not saying you should leave LL totally, I am aware you have done good things as well, and youre talents really could be useful somewhere else at LL. I am not a completely heartless bitch and I don't want to see you completely tossed out of LL ... but definitely your handling of this matter and the response from the community to your proposal/threat has shown that the position you currently serve is not the best place for you. Its time to hand over the reins to someone that isn't about to drive off dozens if not hundreds or even thousands of customers, and cost the company thousands if not millions of dollars.

At this point, Jack, I sincerely believe your credibility with the majority of the portion of the community that pays the most into SL has been damaged beyond your ability to repair at this time, and I think that damage will hurt the credibility of any efforts you or any other representative of LL attempts to make to fix this situation.

If this had been handled something more like:
"We at LL have found that the currant load of Openspace sims has become an operations nightmare and that the load being placed upon the servers is higher then we anticipated and as a result we are currently looking at imposing a 66% increase in tiers... however we are open to alternative ideas. if you have alternative suggestions please come to x or y meeting or post in z forum..." and legitimately carried through...
Then I believe while there would still be considerable anger and frustration, there would be more willingness of openspace owners to hear out and work with LL to find an alternative solution and at the very least a more honest and open approach would have damaged your personal and LL's corperate credibility allot less.
at this point even if another representative steps forward, and attempts to work with the community, its going to take a grand gesture on behalf of LL to show that LL is credible and committed to working with and not against a community, and I do not think it can be done while you are serving in your position.

These are some of the reasons why I think, Jack, that you need to step down and let someone else take your position.

A Few Things:

1) Why would they double the prims for open, *empty* areas? 3750 prims is actually quite a lot. If you use even half allotted prims , the space, by definition, isn't empty anymore. If all that was meant was "space" with a few Linden (1-prim) trees, or even higher-prim landscaping, the most I imagine one would really need is maybe 500 prims.

2) Why would they allow Openspaces to be placed anywhere on the grid, not attached to any other Openspaces or full sims? What would be the purpose of a *standalone* sim of empty ocean or forest, separated from other areas on the grid? Between full sims, it makes sense. Standalone, it does not.

It doesn't add up. I just don't believe Jack's statement - he is twisting the truth. They knew what people were using them for, and further encouraged residential use at the bare minimum by making the above changes.

What really happened was, they just didn't realize how popular they would become, even if they were creating a strain on the servers. And now they are going "Oops!" in a very big way.

Now you are talking ....too bad you arent in a decision making pos with LL I would jump on that solution.

Great idea

Wish the blog entry could have had more info to help us out here there are still a lot of angry , confused & frustrated people.

I'll give the following example to show Linden Lab's and Jack's disingenuous excuses for the tier increases.

Recently the biggest land baron in SL (I managed her continent for 2 years) instructed and paid Lindens to convert 100 full prim sims to 400 open space sims. Jack's group followed those instructions and charged for the conversion a flat rate of several thousand dollars. This individual was the pioneer of SL private island sales and rentals. She started the whole concept of land resale at a time when private land could only be deeded to groups and was not recognized as deeded to any individual.

Jack knew very well that the business of this land baron is resale and renting of land in SL for residences and businesses. Did he or anyone at Linden lab question the wisdom of converting another 400 OS sims? The heavy use was already evident from all the past direct purchases of OS sims by this individual. It was condoned and in fact tacitly encouraged.

Now Jack comes and tells us that it was all wrong. Yet he pocketed the fees that this individual paid for the conversions. This amounts to tacit approval of the use of the OS sims for their normal and usual operation as residences and businesses. Jack and Linden Lab could have warned about the potential use of these sims to the biggest land client LL has. Yet he proceeded to allow the transaction to go forward. Since all 600 sims owned by this estate owner are grandfathered at the $195 / month tier fees, the fees for OS now jump from $50/month to $125/month. That is not a 67% increase but a 150% increase. How can Jack Linden or any Linden justify this behavior. They plead ignorance yet they were fully aware of what all these sims were going to be used for. This land baron has been in this business longer then anyone in SL, at least 4 years.

Real companies need to have a sense of stability, predictability, planning when dealing with Linden lab. None of these have been evident in the estate/land area of SL. This continuing mismanagement of land area, values and fees does not attract businesses that LL wants to have here. The negative publicity generated by this type of announcement and any legal process that comes out of this will drive businesses away from this platform

I really don't care how high LL wants to raise prices or sell sims. That's all secondary to me. I do question their honesty, integrity as a company and as individuals, lack of clear and candid communication with its biggest group of revenue producers and really the lack of any business plan or strategic intent. If these exist then I would question weather anyone is following them.

Unfortunately I feel that there is no way for this situation to be resolved amicably, given the typical arrogance and monopolistic behavior we have witnessed so often and the strong emotional revolt this has caused. There is a culture of "buyer beware" at linden lab. There is an arrogance that customers don't matter because for now it's the only game in town. It won't always be the only game in town. The false loyalty you witness today will play itself out as soon as Google, Sony, Microsoft and others roll out their version of virtual worlds. How many of us do you think will still be here ?

Now for the constructive part:

1. Communicate with your clients honestly, candidly and long before you publish these absurd edicts. If these discussions had taken place in a more professional setting with clear communication between LL and its customers, none of this negative publicity would have transpired. We, your customers are out of the loop. We are not consulted nor given adequate warning of upcoming major deliberations and decisions.

2. Three years ago the L$ currency was out of control, swinging almost as wildly as the stock market today. LL appointed a program manager and with a little time and an excellent process the L$ stabilized and has fluctuates at 264 +/- 1 L$ for at least 2 years. This is the type of stability we need for land values, usage and fees. Please appoint that same person to develop a process of land stabilization so that we the "investors" in SL virtual land can plan our investments and designs with some assurance that they will have an ROI and not wake up one day and see new restrictions and 67% and 150% fee increases. The present system gives us assurance for about 24 hours .. we need a year with quarterly updates (as has already been suggested).

3. You must re-establish trust. This is the most critical element of being in business. Right now I don't trust you. I don't think I'm alone by reading these postings. Work with us, show us that we are your customers. Don't patronize us. Don't short-change us. Don't lie to us. You have no real competition right now. That trust needs to be there when Google announces their new virtual economic platform based on ads and not on land fees.

I've done a little venting because I'm passionate about trust and integrity in an organization. The tier fees for open sims have never been the issue for me. I took the risk and if I get burned I can stand it. Life goes on. I'll now keep an open mind and see how you react to these postings by your customers and what actions you take to remedy the loss of trust in your organization.

I do hope Mark Kingdon is also tuned in to this because much of this lies at his doorstep and only he can set the tone of strong leadership and sense of ethics for the rest of the organization. The culture at LL needs to change.

Soooo.... using LL logic and the principles of Lindenomics I can make a heap of money from the guy I sold my car to last year?

Since I no longer like the carbon emissions it pumps into the atmosphere and the amount of fossil fuels it uses, I can expect him to pay me more money than the price we agreed upon at the date of sale? After all, he is driving it in my town, so I have the right, right?

Cool, I'm gonna hunt him down, and also anyone else who bought a car over the last 12 months. The rules have changed and I want my money.

Yeah right
[/sarcasm]