Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden

JACK

Do yourself a favor and look up Sofia's account records !!

She is one of your BIGGEST customer's.



Grandfather !!!

For starters, Master used to work for Anshe but hasn't for sometime now. I got to meet him at this years SLCC and have the utmost respect for him and the way he runs his own land business in SL. He was pointing out how LL knew what and why Anshe was converting those sims for and they did not have a problem with it. Concierge staff has told several people on many occasions that OS sims are fine for residential use. They have also said that the definition of them was outdated. What would you guess they said to her or her staff that made the conversion request? The one thing they didn't say was no to her. OS sims had an INTENDED use listed not a REQUIRED use. You seem to be confused by what that means. LL is changing a policy because of their poor planning that they created by allowing freestanding OS sims with 3750 prims and NO REQUIRED USE. If they will let one of their biggest customers convert 100 sims into 400 sims to use for renting or selling and then tell her months after the fact that it is not allowed then that is where the hypocrisy really lies. If they are willing to screw her over they will anyone else in SL without blinking. It’s not about if you like Anshe or not it’s that she didn’t break any rules by what she did yet LL wants her to pay more for it now and tell her she was wrong for what she was doing. Anyone that thinks that is right on LL's part needs to get more oxygen flowing.

You misunderstood me. I was pointing out to him that LL will likely change their decision and continue to support usage that meets the original intent of their disclaimer, so he should consider waiting before he packs up his estate.

Personally that decision will affect me poorly and is not in my mind a satisfactory conclusion. I will have to close stores, convert sims, evict residents. He said he used them as they were intended and was meeting the guidelines. I think those users in the end will be saved from any ill effects. The rest of us will perhaps not be so lucky.

Good news for sailing sims perhaps, bad news for anyone else, and thats the vast majority of us.

Jack: 2500 posts later and you still dont have the primballs it takes to come and confront us here, instead you post another blog response with closed comments. Wheres the discussion in that? And once again you meet the outcry of foul with your pat vanilla retorts. "we hear you, we feel your pain, we are listening, Its all for the good of the community, more later". Thats not a response, address the points that have been raised here, even the accusatory ones that call you out on your own bad behavior and complicity in this.

Quit hiding behind your linden skirt and face your public.

You have missed his point entirely. The real point was that:

"Real companies need to have a sense of stability, predictability, planning when dealing with Linden lab. None of these have been evident in the estate/land area of SL. This continuing mismanagement of land area, values and fees does not attract businesses that LL wants to have here."

I can't run a business under these conditions. Anshe can't. Rockliffe University can't. The other 2400 replies here can't, including some people that created wonderful free content for SL just because they could.

Dealing with LL at the moment is like dealing with a temperamental 6-year-old. I could tell you all kinds of things about properties being confiscated arbitrarily without notice or due process, LL employee vendettas against legitimate owners here, and many other things. But it would be just details, because the real overarching issue is that LL needs to bring some degree of predictability into SL if they want businesses to keep investing into it. And they NEED those businesses, as well as the immeasureable contributions added by creative individuals, educational endeavors, and other content developers and contributors.

LL brought out and marketed a product offering 3750 prims for $75 per month. They sold over 20,000 of them, I understand. They discovered that (surprise) people expected to be able to use the prims and land as advertised. LL also discovered that packing 16 of those to a quad-core server was causing more performance and bandwidth issues than they expected. So clearly, there was a disconnect between hoped-for expectations and reality, but of course, people want to use what they were paying for. I don't know about you, but I didn't want to pay $75 per month for a bare ornamental sim with some plants or water on it and nothing else. Neither did Anshe's renters, or a whole lot of other people.

Bottom line is, this is an LL miscalculation. For them to raise fees across the board is not only untenable, it is also punishing the many wonderful content and openspace creators that made SL what it is long before this decision. Soon much of that will be lost, unless this is reversed or grandfathered. Even the large landowners that sold these as residences are facing the loss of some really nice content.

Regardless of that loss, the lesson remains - businesses, education, and individuals cannot thrive in an environment where the future is unpredictable, and that is exactly what SL is today.

Update regarding the Openspaces announcement
Wednesday, October 29th, 2008 at 6:52 PM by: Jack Linden
Following our previous post on changes to the Openspace products we have had a great deal of feedback from the community, particularly in the forum thread but also via email and IMs. I would like to offer up some feedback of our own.


The first thing I would like to do, is to thank everyone for taking time to give feedback. We’ve read it all, including the forum posts, and almost all of you have made your points constructively and clearly. We are blessed with highly passionate and intelligent residents and that makes for good dialogue, which we really appreciate.

Secondly, let me be clear when I say that we are listening to what you are saying to us on this issue. If you’re wondering whether to post that forum entry, please do. They all get read, even if we’re not able to reply to them all.

Thirdly, I wanted to clarify one issue. As mentioned in the post, Openspaces were intended for space, empty areas of ocean or forest. Take a look at the Knowledgebase article description here. By that criteria, the large majority of Openspaces have more going on than was the original intent. We are not suggesting this is a bad thing, and of course we’re delighted that people have found them to be so useful. And we’re not saying that everyone is abusing resources. We are saying that the use has changed, and continues to do so as people find more creative ways to use them. So the revised pricing is about recognising that change of use and the additional costs and value associated with it.

Over the next few days we will be continuing to review the feedback and keep the dialogue flowing with as many of you as we can. If you have something to say, the forum is the best place to say it. It is clear that some Openspaces are being used as they were intended originally, so we recognise that there are different levels of usage that we need to account for.

We will blog again soon, once we have had time to review. Be assured that we are aware of the strong feelings you have about this decision. In the meantime, please keep the conversation flowing, constructive and on topic. More from us soon.

"Openspaces were intended for space, empty areas of ocean or forest."

thats why the prim limit was doubled then?
thats why the requirement they be anchored to islands was lifted? so ppl could spend $75/mo on an empty sim of disconnected water?

you know what id like to say to you jack, but i saw what happened to sarah.

1) Why would be putting one or two modest residences (not residential areas but a house or two) on an open space prim be unacceptable? You could still stay under the prim limit - even under 2000.

2) Why on earth are you doing away with educational discounts? I was under the understanding that these were to encourage educational entities to use SL. This greatly lowers LL's credibility with the educational community just at a time when that is definitely what we do NOT need.

3) Why is the price being raised on people who are under 2000 prims, have almost no scripts and, in fact, are using open spaces as intended?

"the revised pricing is about recognising that change of use and the additional costs and value associated with it."

- So now this product suddenly CAN use 3750 prims for a nightclub, you're just going to charge more? I thought they caused excessive server load? So has LL solved the problem now?

- Will you be refunding your customer's startup fees now that they can no longer afford to keep their investment, or will you put it in your back pocket?

WTFPWNED.

Thirdly, I wanted to clarify one issue. As mentioned in the post, Openspaces were intended for space, empty areas of ocean or forest. Take a look at the Knowledgebase article description here. By that criteria, the large majority of Openspaces have more going on than was the original intent. We are not suggesting this is a bad thing, and of course we’re delighted that people have found them to be so useful. And we’re not saying that everyone is abusing resources. We are saying that the use has changed, and continues to do so as people find more creative ways to use them. So the revised pricing is about recognising that change of use and the additional costs and value associated with it.





The above paragraph is from Jack Linden's reply to the noise that the price increase has kicked up...It does sound as though all of the discussion has had no bearing on the decision regarding pricing...Since the OS product was so well received and the individuals buying them are actually using the prims allotted them there is the need for a value added upcharge on these products...

I have to say that the attraction and perceived value of the OS will not be worth the amount of the increase...Resulting in the return of countless properties...

No surprise that all of the words are not having impact on the final outcome....Money talks...it will be interesting to see what happens to the SL economy with this upcoming change looming over the heads of so many people...

I agree, and we are small spirtually based non-profit that will no longer be able to afford our two open space sims with either of these changes let alone with both. If the small community we worked to bring together to support a full sim and the two os sims has to disband because their os sims no longer exist then we will likely also lose the full sim too.

Seems that there should be some sort of code of ethics involved here when an organization in good faith pays such significant hosting (tier) fees, then spends money developing their sims all to see it all go down the drain in 6 months time cuz of an over the top tier fee increase.

LL - please reconsider,
SpiritHeart Magic (a sad little unicorn)

Seems to me LL is shifting the theme of this increase from 'abuse' to 'value'... two vague terms that allow them lots of room to enforce, ignore, or change without much consistency.

Never did they say what you could or couldn't do with an OS - just what was the recommended use and that support issues would not be addressed if used differently. Then they gave even more prims to be creative with. Followed by the statement of raising costs because of abuse that was never really defined.

Now the latest comments from LL doesn't mention the undefined abuse, but rather:

"So the revised pricing is about recognising that change of use and the additional costs and value associated with it."

Interesting choice of words, but probably closer to the truth: "value associated with it". LL has realized how much people like OS and just like Billy Mayes (or whatever his name is) pitching the latest, greatest orange cleaner - 'value' is a relative term. While it may be worth it to some, the masses are a little more realistic.

The value is only what someone is willing to pay. Seems like the masses agree with the value being lost at the $125 level.

I would have a little respect for LL if they simply made a definitive statement with sound reasoning for whatever price they wanted to charge. But this vague, undefined, and changing logic leaves little room for understanding, let alone respect for a company claiming to create a pleasurable experience.

Ok ok... there is ONE way to make everyone happy about this. With the increase in price and (supposedly) increase in hardware power, give Open SIMs more prims.

For an Open SIM's new price to be fair and equal in value to a regular SIM, it would have to allow a 6250 prim limit.

There IS a market for cheaper SIMs. Allowing the average joe to afford his own area would greatly benifit Linden Labs with more profit. Perhaps adding a fourth SIM type just for this purpose would be a good idea.

Thursday, October 30, 2008

I am wondering if perhaps another reason behind the sudden rapid abandonment of Open Sims - which is now occurring at an ever-quickening pace (ostensibly due to Linden Labs's announcement that they're changing the rules governing the use of Open Sims - a change apparently needed and welcomed by more than a few here - as well as due to their sixty-percent monthly fee increase from USD $75.00 to $125.00 for maintaining these Sims) - might actually be the result of a far more serious and thus-far unmentioned cause - namely, the weakening economy world-wide forcing people to the point where they can no longer afford even the relatively simple luxury of Second Life.

The possibility that Linden Labs could be put into Chapter 11 bankruptcy and forced out of business by the economic crisis has been on my mind since the Wall Street meltdown and well before the Open Sims issue hit home - and I fear that the entire deck of financial cards upon which Linden depends for its revenue is coming apart and hurtling down the proverbial mountainside like an avalanche, wiping out everything in its path.

I very much hope I am mistaken here - but if they are in deep financial trouble, I hope that the Lindens will be forthcoming and tell us the whole hard truth.

I need reassurance on this matter. Since I joined Second Life over a year and a half ago, it has come to mean a lot to me - I have made many friends here - just as it surely means a lot to so many others.

I for one would hate to see it all lost.

Sincerely,

Callinet Dagostino

Linden Labs last blog post was only disappointing. They should realize that we make the content and they only get the money for their servers. Without users they are nothing.

I think LL would satisfy everyone and solve all issues if they decided:

- to keep their opensim for the same price but with a strict enforcement of the "prims/avatars/scripts allowed" rules

-to offer for those who want more an upgrade to a "new half-sim" product that would be 7500 prims for 125$

This way people who use their opensim in the "intended" way won't be penalised and people who want to invest but cannot afford a full sim would have a way to do so.

It would solve lots of troubles and help develop SL...

Otherwise, a lot of sims will close, simply because 125$ a month is not affordable for most of us, SL's content will be less interesting, people won't be attracted to it anymore and the whole system will eventually collapse.

Yes perhaps - but there's no frickin' way I'm ever buying more land from LL after this bait-and-switch fiasco. Shame, I wanted an Openspace sim too. But this recent bout of madness has convinced me that it's simply too risky to invest in the SL marketplace when LL pull evil stunts like this.

this isnt about resources at all. this entire argument is a red herring.
its all about gomming the estate rental business. i saw it coming back when they devalued islands and floored mainland prices. i saw further evidence with the launch of bay city. now i am seeing even more evidence with the total devaluation of OS sims coinciding with the launch of 'nautilus'.
the next step is to hike the tier on all the suckers that bought islands at the reduced $1000 price.
look out caledon, ravenglass, dreamland, etc. ll have a plan, and they are coming for you. they see you turning a profit and they want it all for themselves.

My problem is the follow.

Why LL duplicate the prims, if the use is only for ocean or something?

Why LL alloud to order an openspace alone, if I should use it for an ocean with a fullprim next?

Well, so far after an hour of reading, it's been probably about 90% against the changes. If Linden Labs aren't going to listen to customers this time... they need to replace their administrative decision makers. The customers pay the bills, after all.

I understand the situation and I am happy that you are trying to find a solution to the problem of a lag of abuse of resources on openspaces.
BUT before acquiring the openspaces (7 total), I took the precaution of you ask me if I can serve and how cf. Chat 4051-247160.
I'm well below the thresholds.
increased fees and for me IMPOSSIBLE, because not speculate, visit my region, calculate and take into account that I am only a small particular present on SL for fun: $ 350 more per month I not can assure them. if I transform the openspaces in full is the RP areas and the amusement park that will suffer ... there is there really no solutions ?

Remember you guys when M Linden came on board and made a big speech on the blog and looked like things were going to change? The biggest change was that all the controversial issues and the downtime and the problems were taken out of the blog and placed in less visible areas. And this price increase and the ways is done sound like the same old crap to me.
Good luck everyone.

To complain about open prim sims being used for more than what they are attended is a joke ... you low price for island but keep tier price the same.. the us government is not downhill and soon all other coutries will undoubtly feel the whiplash from this, now you wanna raise prices at whopping 66% for what ... to make the land work better for us the reality is that second life isn't the young entrepreneur dream goal of making money on the web anymore with all the changes your making it more like you fading out these private sims and if you think sl is going downhill with the amt of ppl not logging on like b4 just imagine when they look at their bill and realize this is an expense they can do with out you should be lowering the teir instead your going to raise the price on these islands raise the teir ? good lucc whatever your doing it's definetly not for the ppl..... but ih ope you get what your looking for by doing this oh yea and with all these add ons teh prim usuage is still the same... waits to hear how high your gonna raise full sims adn their tiers

His comment was:



He didn't say HE did it, so for that I apologize and retract my comment directed at him.



I won't guess anything about that, but from claims in this topic, the Concierge has told residents that it's ok for residential use. I have said that there really wouldn't be a load issue if it's a single home, etc. What I would have a hard time believing is the Concierge saying "parcel it in quarters and rent it all out is okies". 4 homes decorated to the brim with sculptie furniture, textures & various scripts galore; security orbs I'm sure. People on parcels don't normally decorate conservatively, they max it out. Now you have 4 quarters of an OS stretching at the seams dragging not only it, but with the combination of other similar OS, really dragging. Add some avatars to the mix and you have a very unpleasant experience.

I really do think there is leeway with using it as a simple place for a simple home, but I see no flexibility in commercial use at it's current state, but that too is my opinion.



I'm not confused about it at all, and points made in this topic (to include yours) do raise that as a valid retort to LL's current policy. I too have stated (and gave examples/suggestions) of how additional controls would help solve the current dilemma. I honestly believe that it was some leeway that LL was giving that was completely exploited, fed by their offering of OS. Poor planning does sum it up, as does a poorly wrote KB page. It's a clear case of giving an inch and taking a mile. Again, if you leave enough room for abuse, people will abuse.



If you read my previous posts, you'll see that I too share the same view.

Nonetheless, the point still stands in response to this comment:



You can't be a very well established land baron and claim ignorance or point fingers at their acceptance of your order when it's YOUR responsibility to comply or not, suggestion or hard rule. I hate to seem like I'm defending the Lindens on this particular point, but putting myself behind a Linden desk processing the order, to me it's common sense. Do people expect the Concierge to chew their meat for them too? They don't dictate what/where with your sim, that's for you to decide, they simply provide me with information so I can make the choice and if I should deviate from their policies, my account/land is at risk.

From the blog..........
Thirdly, I wanted to clarify one issue. As mentioned in the post, Openspaces were intended for space, empty areas of ocean or forest. Take a look at the Knowledgebase article description here. By that criteria, the large majority of Openspaces have more going on than was the original intent. We are not suggesting this is a bad thing, and of course we’re delighted that people have found them to be so useful. And we’re not saying that everyone is abusing resources. We are saying that the use has changed, and continues to do so as people find more creative ways to use them. So the revised pricing is about recognising that change of use and the additional costs and value associated with it.


The Void sim were a different model to the low prim sims that are now available.
More prims and a different price.

This MUST be true since the moles have been using these sims to build exactly the same type of things that are now being called "abuse" when ordinary customers do the same

I bought a 3 piece suite for my living room years ago, It started showing signs of wear within a few weeks, and when I complained to the manufacturer, the answer came back,
"BUT YOU HAVE BEEN SITTING ON IT".

Do not sell a product unless you expect it to be used for what it was designed for, AND for anything else that it CAN be used for.