RC Questions

1100: Jack Linden: Customer Relations/Support, Land
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Linden Estate Services/157/116/38

I think his use of past-tense was because he knows that CSI was in SL but has left.. They've been gone for a while now.

Yes. go see the big sign that says Jack is on vacation rofl.

Did they have a sim or just the custom browser when they did those tie-in episodes?

Well, all this is information being delivered. It is your Viewer that you installed which interprets it as X or Y rather than a stream of raw data. And just like the phone company can't control what you say on their lines, LL cannot control what is or isn't visible to a user. So long as there is user created content, LL can claim the same carrier exemptions because anyone anywhere can write a script and upload a texture of a penis, then grief anyplace within 60m with particles in under 5 minutes.

Nevertheless, some people *are* pushing for holding the carrier responsible, advocating "deep packet" inspection to make sure nothing illegal is send over the wire, and ISPs here in Europe *have* blocked certain domains. So far, it has been by court order, which is all well within our legal system, but some are arguing it should be by simple accusation, DMCA-style.

I am not saying that anything should be permissible on the Net, but it is *not* a private middleman's duty to be judge, jury and executioner.
This is a topic near and dear to me, and why I think LL is pushing the platform in *entirely* the wrong direction if they want to have any relevance as future media and communications platform.

They had a whole bunch of sims.

this is my fave

You need to put a "?" in there if you're doing the [img]trick.

Im excerpting his comments, there were 55 people in the meeting, so a lot of chatter:

[11:01 Jack Linden: hi hi!
11:01 Jack Linden: hmm lots of people up in my office today!
11:01 Jack Linden shouts: Jack's office hour is held in the Lobby (for those up in his office)!
11:02 Jack Linden: there we go
11:02 Jack Linden: crude but effective!
11:03 Jack Linden: if i sit on anyone, please accept my apologies
11:04 Jack Linden: i need to get that glass sign fixed up there, never seem to get around to it hehe
11:05 Jack Linden: okay, so thanks to everyone for coming along.. great to see some new faces here. who has someone they'd like to discuss?
11:06 Jack Linden: welcome back Tal
11:06 Jack Linden: hey mosley
11:07 Jack Linden: the micro-parcel count is still in decline. actually, if you give me a sec i can upload a graph..
11:09 Jack Linden: okay, there we go. so as you can see things are speeding up as the number of 16s for sale drops off
11:10 Jack Linden: this chart is just 16s yes, but the same is true for 32s
11:11 Jack Linden: As for the traffic bot issue, the worst case ones are being dealt with now as we started enforcement last week
11:12 Jack Linden: We're going to post to the blog again to clarify about camping chairs
11:12 Jack Linden: As there's a lot of confusion around those
11:13 Jack Linden: Tal, it will never get down to 2k because many 16m parcel sales are completely reasonable. We're tackling the huge micro-parcel dealers not the selling of small parcels
11:13 Jack Linden: Xantarius, the Adult content project is being run by a separate team, I'm only involved in the migration part
11:13 Jack Linden: So I don't know
11:15 Jack Linden: Elanthius, the data looks to show that at around 6k we'd have removed the top 10 micro parcel dealers
11:15 Jack Linden: I believe
11:15 Jack Linden: The ones below those hold far less
11:16 Jack Linden: Couldbe, I'm involved with the Land part as I said, but not the policy discussions in Jira and the forums. But I'm happy to talk about the Land aspects
11:17 Jack Linden: Tal, we have good data there. It all adds up to the size of the market so we're not missing anyone
11:18 Jack Linden: I believe Blondin is doing most of the communications directly
11:18 Jack Linden: He has regular office hours too i think
11:19 Jack Linden: Elanthius, we've no plans to change the grandfathering on 195 regions
11:20 Jack Linden: *smile* sorry Elanthius.
11:21 Jack Linden: The grandfathering was done as a recognition of those early adopters, and as it stands we are not changing that any time soon
11:21 Erinyse Planer: jack i have a question about exectution of land movements. for mainland sims almsot totally owned by adult businesses such as cicero... why not move the entire sim?
11:21 Jack Linden: Erinyse, that's a possibility definitely
11:23 Jack Linden: Uni, it's a nightmare if the region is mixed use or if we try to squash it into the adult continent. But if it's about spinning someone who owns all or almost all of a region into an island, we can do that
11:23 Jack Linden: Putting a differently terraformed mainland region into the middle of the adult continent wouldn't work
11:25 Jack Linden: Erinyse, it would look pretty awful if we did that. repairing that terrain when it is covered in builds would be almost impossible
11:26 Jack Linden: I believe there is much more communication planned for when the definitions are finalized, including Message Of The Day etc
11:27 Jack Linden: Couldbe, the idea here is to move the adult content, not move the land as such. If you own 20 parcels and one of them has an established business that is Adult in nature, then I don't think we would move all 20
11:27 Jack Linden: But we'll be as fair and reasonable as we can, and be working with people to help them relocate
11:28 Jack Linden: Samatha, no-one is ignoring you, I have IMs, notecards and open chat to answer. .and that means I do miss people
11:29 Jack Linden: Crickett, as I've said before we would have to look at each situation. This is going to be a discussion but we are committed to being fair with all those affacted
11:29 Jack Linden: *affected
11:30 Jack Linden: Xantarius. that's a common question and all i can say is that given the two options of being told early and included in the discussion, or being told late and not being consulted.. every single time people have asked us to talk early
11:31 Jack Linden: But that obviously means that not everything is finalized yet
11:30 McCall Ryder: Jack, It would sure help your users if you had a good writer talking plain language instead of programmese. "Pathcut" isn't English, "Cut outward from center" is.
11:32 Jack Linden: McCall, I agree that language is really important.
11:32 Jack Linden: Erinyse, there have been a number of those brown bag ones etc, but i'll certainly pass that on
11:33 Jack Linden: Kara, how have you tried to give input? We've read all the forum posts and emails and notecards
11:33 DarkStar Gothly: i simply do not like the term "adult" i thin it is totally subjective. Further, i resent not being trusted to uncheck a mature box, read a sim description and being able to make my own descions.
11:34 Jack Linden: Darkstar, we've said that those terms are not ideal and we are looking for better alternatives. If you have thoughts on that do let us know
11:35 Jack Linden: Moon, by (we) I am not meaning just myself or Blondin. We as a company have read al the feedback
11:35 Jack Linden: There is no way, sadly, that I could have read it all. I would have liked to but you guys write too fast. *smile*
11:35 Uni Ninetails: Jack if you catch this: Ursula; Is it old server hardware or all brand new?
11:36 Jack Linden: Uni.. brand new
11:35 Qie Niangao: Jack: any interest in LL for opening some of Ursula early as a site for an SL6B "Fringe Festival"? I'll rent it from you guys for L$1, if that makes it easier, and find some way to organize it.
11:36 Jack Linden: Qie.. haha that's an interesting idea!
11:36 Jack Linden: Xantarius, I know the project team will have. I read most of the longest Jira thread
11:37 DarkStar Gothly: i think LL should have to buy back the land for the same price we have paid for it.. in REAL US dollars
11:38 Jack Linden: Darkstar are you talking about an Island or Mainland?
11:38 Couldbe Yue: Jack, would it be better if we organised a meeting in your office in brighton. a one on one may just clear a lot of this up
11:38 Jack Linden: Couldbe, I'm not based in Brighton
11:38 Jack Linden: Though I could be there potentially.
11:39 Jack Linden: I am in the UK, but not in Brighton
11:38 Crickett Booker: Jack, Sir, is it true that you all still believe only 3-5% of SL is adult in nature and that is why you made ursualla too small to accomodate us all or is it that you know we are going to pay what we have to in order to preserve our way of life?
11:39 Jack Linden: Crickett, not quite. We surveyed the Mainland (not Islands, they are different) and found that the number of parcels with clearly adult material was relatively low.
11:40 Jack Linden: I think around 4% or so
11:40 Jack Linden: The Ursula continent is not too small, it can expand as far as we want to expand it. But the terrain as prepared is 200-240 regions or so I think. Last time i looked
11:41 Jack Linden: But we'l only be putting 50-70 up at first, as we see how it goes
11:41 Jack Linden: Guys, all of you that are IMing me and dropping notecards - I'm just not able to reply to all those while talking to the group, apologies
11:40 Elanthius Flagstaff: Hey Jack, someone who knows many Lindens, an insider, very influential, said at the beginning of this meeting tha LL are considering leaving Homesteads at US$95 a month. Confirm or deny!
11:42 Jack Linden: Sorry elanthius, didn't see that comment about homesteads fly by, must have missed it
11:43 Jack Linden: Couldbe... we have a large team that handles this stuff, and they are working on it all the time
11:42 Xantarius Cain: I apologize Jack if you answered this question already (I probably missed your reponse)... What happens to those who do not move? Will you come knocking at their doors? Will you shut them down if they still refuse after you ask them to move? if they refuse to move, and you ask them to move, how long will they have?
11:45 Jack Linden: Xantarius, I presume that if someone doesn't move their adult business and continues operating it outside of the adult continent, then it'll eventually be dealt with like any other violation
11:46 Jack Linden: remember, that we're not focussing this policy change on every single piece of adult content, it's about the more commercialised, businesses or services that are adult
11:46 Jack Linden: those are the ones that if they wish to keep advertising and trading in adult goods will need to move
11:47 Jack Linden: if as a private individual you have a sex bed in the attic, then this policy won't impact you
11:49 Jack Linden: Elanthius, it's possible that there are way more adult businesses than either the land surveys or the detailed Search data shows but i'm not sure how we'd have missed them if that is true. But if that were the case we would have to extend the timeperiod and add mor bodies to help move people
11:49 Firehorse Rearwin: from the way the proposed rules read, the statue of david would be banned from a pg sim
11:49 Jack Linden: Firehorse, no it wouldn't
11:50 Jack Linden: the statue of david isn't an adult oriented service or business operating on the Mainland.
11:50 Jack Linden: *smile*
11:51 Jack Linden: Elanthius, we're not limiting it in that way, that wouldn't be fair at all. If someone has a legitimate claim to being in that business then they wil get a free move
11:51 Jack Linden: my understanding is that erotic art, that is clearly art, is not going to have to move
11:51 Walter McAndrews: Jack I repeat, why are the lindens taking on this responsibility instead of leaving it to the sim owners themselves, who pay consideration to SL for a sim, where requriments of an adequate means of determining the age and thereby access to their matieral is their responsibility?
11:52 Jack Linden: Walter, not sure i understand the question
11:52 Jack Linden: Couldbe, I have no idea, I'm not familiar with that case
11:52 Firehorse Rearwin: and what happens if LL is bought by a fundamentalist religious group?
11:53 Jack Linden: Firehorse, that is the best question of the day hehe

11:54 Jack Linden: Walter, in terms of islands that is up to the estate owners. for Mainland the estate owner is us
11:55 Jack Linden: So within our estate, we are putting some separation between commercial adult content and everything else
11:55 Jack Linden: Just as on the high street the adult stors have blackened windows, so that only those specifically wanting that content enter.. we are just providing that separation
11:57 Jack Linden: Darkstar, that age issue isn't the point here. many 18 year olds and older do not want to see that material and if they do, they would prefer to see it when they choose to, not when their neighbour wants them to
11:57 Jack Linden: Darkstar, traditionally I think around 15% of regions were set to PG on the Mainland

(my comment; Breakdown of current regions by Ownership and Classification:

* Estate - Adult: 1
* Estate - Mature: 17955
* Estate - Offline: 8
* Estate - PG: 3441 (16.1%)
* Linden - Adult: 7
* Linden - Mature: 3982
* Linden - PG: 1421 (26.3%)

-DRN)

11:57 Wynochee LeShelle: no black windows where i live, Jack
11:58 Jack Linden: Wynochee
11:58 Xantarius Cain: Jack, if they don't want to see this sort of material...can't they just go PG? Why have mature land if you don't want to see mature things? you guys are inventing problems that don't exist. Move the small minority of people who don't want to see mature/adult content, not the rest of us.
11:59 Jack Linden: Xantarius, because PG land is totallyintermingled with Mature land on the Mainland
11:59 ATechwolf Foxclaw: I can say fuck here due to sim setting is mature, but I can expose a breast? (If i was female)
11:59 Jack Linden: Atechwolf, yes you could, this is a mature region
12:00 Jack Linden: though might not be ideal for an office hour
12:00 Jack Linden: *smile*
12:01 Jack Linden: Walter, we are not gathering information, no part of it is kept. we're asking only for that check *if* you choose to view that adult content
12:02 Jack Linden: Walter, if they don't wish to verify then they can enjoy the many thousands of regions that are not adult, as much as they wish
12:02 Jack Linden: Xantarius, this has nothing to do with the TG which we've stated many times. The TG has no bearing on this at all
12:03 Jack Linden: We have no plans to merge grids
12:04 Jack Linden: we want our customers to have the choice over what their second lives are. and whether they view adult material is a choice every resident should be able to make for themselves
12:05 Jack Linden: Okay folks, I have to run to my next meeting. And I have no fingers left. *smile*
12:06 Jack Linden: Thanks all for coming along. I really appreciate all of the views and opinions you bring

12:06 Jack Linden: take care everyone. same time next week!

There's no sign that says he's on vacation.

Drake1, sorry this got sort of lost in the rush of posts. I will try to answer based on all the stuff I have read - your odds of getting a direct answer from a Linden right now are small....

As long as you do not need to use any "adult" terms in the ads that you place (and the word "Adult" is not considered an adult term) you will be able to remain on Mature land and will not have to move. This assumes, of course that the store you are talking about is on Mainland. If you are on a private estate then you will need to talk to the owner about what their plans are for rating the sims.

Hope this helps.

If they really believe that 4% - ~200 regions - is adult content and will have to move to ursula and it's going to be first-come, first-served, why the hell are they starting with such a puny number or regions??

/me looks confused and annoyed.


There was one a few days ago.

70.. despite cyn saying that anyone who either provides content or a service for adult use should be going???

the thing about anything that jack or any other linden says is that if there's no lawyer present then you must expect it to be incorrect. I would expect that no lawyer could allow themselves to be present when information they know to be incorrect was given to their customers..

I'm sure the law society would frown on it..

Really? Someone must have put it up and taken it down between his normal office hours, then. Hasn't been one there in months that I have seen, and I am a regular.

11:13 Jack Linden: Xantarius, the Adult content project is being run by a separate team, I'm only involved in the migration part
11:16 Jack Linden: Couldbe, I'm involved with the Land part as I said, but not the policy discussions in Jira and the forums. But I'm happy to talk about the Land aspects
11:18 Jack Linden: I believe Blondin is doing most of the communications directly
11:18 Jack Linden: He has regular office hours too i think

(Hey, Blondin, hear that?)


11:21 Erinyse Planer: jack i have a question about exectution of land movements. for mainland sims almsot totally owned by adult businesses such as cicero... why not move the entire sim?
11:21 Jack Linden: Erinyse, that's a possibility definitely
11:23 Jack Linden: Uni, it's a nightmare if the region is mixed use or if we try to squash it into the adult continent. But if it's about spinning someone who owns all or almost all of a region into an island, we can do that
11:23 Jack Linden: Putting a differently terraformed mainland region into the middle of the adult continent wouldn't work
11:25 Jack Linden: Erinyse, it would look pretty awful if we did that. repairing that terrain when it is covered in builds would be almost impossible

(Thats a new bit of information....moving full sims or close to it bodily)

11:27 Jack Linden: Couldbe, the idea here is to move the adult content, not move the land as such. If you own 20 parcels and one of them has an established business that is Adult in nature, then I don't think we would move all 20
11:27 Jack Linden: But we'll be as fair and reasonable as we can, and be working with people to help them relocate

(later discussion revolved around split parcels in a sim, and I think reasonable would be if you need the prims, to get the same total area as you had in the sim you moved out of)


11:29 Jack Linden: Crickett, as I've said before we would have to look at each situation. This is going to be a discussion but we are committed to being fair with all those affacted
11:29 Jack Linden: *affected

11:30 Jack Linden: Xantarius. that's a common question and all i can say is that given the two options of being told early and included in the discussion, or being told late and not being consulted.. every single time people have asked us to talk early
11:31 Jack Linden: But that obviously means that not everything is finalized yet

(True, we would complain either way..This way we have a chance to be heard, and more time to bitch *smile*)

11:33 DarkStar Gothly: i simply do not like the term "adult" i thin it is totally subjective. Further, i resent not being trusted to uncheck a mature box, read a sim description and being able to make my own descions.
11:34 Jack Linden: Darkstar, we've said that those terms are not ideal and we are looking for better alternatives. If you have thoughts on that do let us know

(Open season on maturity labels!! Send Jack your ideas)

11:35 Jack Linden: Moon, by (we) I am not meaning just myself or Blondin. We as a company have read al the feedback
11:35 Jack Linden: There is no way, sadly, that I could have read it all. I would have liked to but you guys write too fast. *smile*

(Fair enough, if you are a manager with other things to do)

11:35 Uni Ninetails: Jack if you catch this: Ursula; Is it old server hardware or all brand new?
11:36 Jack Linden: Uni.. brand new

(Good news there)

11:35 Qie Niangao: Jack: any interest in LL for opening some of Ursula early as a site for an SL6B "Fringe Festival"? I'll rent it from you guys for L$1, if that makes it easier, and find some way to organize it.
11:36 Jack Linden: Qie.. haha that's an interesting idea!

(Lets see if he's serious about that)

11:38 Crickett Booker: Jack, Sir, is it true that you all still believe only 3-5% of SL is adult in nature and that is why you made ursualla too small to accomodate us all or is it that you know we are going to pay what we have to in order to preserve our way of life?
11:39 Jack Linden: Crickett, not quite. We surveyed the Mainland (not Islands, they are different) and found that the number of parcels with clearly adult material was relatively low.
11:40 Jack Linden: I think around 4% or so
11:40 Jack Linden: The Ursula continent is not too small, it can expand as far as we want to expand it. But the terrain as prepared is 200-240 regions or so I think. Last time i looked
11:41 Jack Linden: But we'l only be putting 50-70 up at first, as we see how it goes

(If you couple this with the below statements about "Commercial adult business" it makes sense. If you put it with the KB6010 definitions as they read now, it does not)

11:42 Xantarius Cain: I apologize Jack if you answered this question already (I probably missed your reponse)... What happens to those who do not move? Will you come knocking at their doors? Will you shut them down if they still refuse after you ask them to move? if they refuse to move, and you ask them to move, how long will they have?
11:45 Jack Linden: Xantarius, I presume that if someone doesn't move their adult business and continues operating it outside of the adult continent, then it'll eventually be dealt with like any other violation

11:46 Jack Linden: remember, that we're not focussing this policy change on every single piece of adult content, it's about the more commercialised, businesses or services that are adult
11:46 Jack Linden: those are the ones that if they wish to keep advertising and trading in adult goods will need to move
11:47 Jack Linden: if as a private individual you have a sex bed in the attic, then this policy won't impact you

(See previous comment about 4% Adult)

11:49 Jack Linden: Elanthius, it's possible that there are way more adult businesses than either the land surveys or the detailed Search data shows but i'm not sure how we'd have missed them if that is true. But if that were the case we would have to extend the timeperiod and add mor bodies to help move people

11:49 Firehorse Rearwin: from the way the proposed rules read, the statue of david would be banned from a pg sim
11:49 Jack Linden: Firehorse, no it wouldn't
11:50 Jack Linden: the statue of david isn't an adult oriented service or business operating on the Mainland.
11:50 Jack Linden: *smile*

(KB6010:A Region may be designated PG so long as it does not advertise or make available any content that is suggestive of any (even mildly) sexual or violent themes,
That only works if you interpret "make available" as "sell".)

11:51 Jack Linden: Elanthius, we're not limiting it in that way, that wouldn't be fair at all. If someone has a legitimate claim to being in that business then they wil get a free move

(So only businesses get to move. If you are a sexual roleplay sim, too bad)

11:51 Jack Linden: my understanding is that erotic art, that is clearly art, is not going to have to move

(Erotic art vs porn...As a supreme court justice said, I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it.

Note, as the land guy, Jack has an interest in minimizing how many people have to move. Less work for him, fewer servers to bring online, less non-tier paying holes in the mainland. Other lindens with the goal of bringing in lots of corporate customers, have an interest in "cleaning up the smut". It's quite possible for people within a company to have different goals and priorities)

11:51 Walter McAndrews: Jack I repeat, why are the lindens taking on this responsibility instead of leaving it to the sim owners themselves, who pay consideration to SL for a sim, where requriments of an adequate means of determining the age and thereby access to their matieral is their responsibility?
11:52 Jack Linden: Walter, not sure i understand the question

(Walter means: why not leave it to landowners to decide who to let in, under what rules)

11:54 Jack Linden: Walter, in terms of islands that is up to the estate owners. for Mainland the estate owner is us
11:55 Jack Linden: So within our estate, we are putting some separation between commercial adult content and everything else
11:55 Jack Linden: Just as on the high street the adult stors have blackened windows, so that only those specifically wanting that content enter.. we are just providing that separation
11:57 Jack Linden: Darkstar, that age issue isn't the point here. many 18 year olds and older do not want to see that material and if they do, they would prefer to see it when they choose to, not when their neighbour wants them to

11:57 Jack Linden: Darkstar, traditionally I think around 15% of regions were set to PG on the Mainland

(Breakdown of current regions by Ownership and Classification:

* Estate - Adult: 1
* Estate - Mature: 17955
* Estate - Offline: 8
* Estate - PG: 3441 (16.1%)
* Linden - Adult: 7
* Linden - Mature: 3982
* Linden - PG: 1421 (26.3%)

-DRN)

11:58 Xantarius Cain: Jack, if they don't want to see this sort of material...can't they just go PG? Why have mature land if you don't want to see mature things? you guys are inventing problems that don't exist. Move the small minority of people who don't want to see mature/adult content, not the rest of us.
11:59 Jack Linden: Xantarius, because PG land is totallyintermingled with Mature land on the Mainland

(We fucked up in zoning in the first place when we built the continents and put PG and Mature all mixed together, so now we have to make a fresh start with an all Adult area)

12:02 Jack Linden: Walter, if they don't wish to verify then they can enjoy the many thousands of regions that are not adult, as much as they wish

(Which begs the question of people who CANNOT verify for whatever reason)

Great shot. Symbolic. Perfect.

...unless you get AR'ed and/or GTeam is in a bad mood, in which case you have *no* claim to anything, since every official document so far has been so insanely widely worded that it gives pretty much carte blanche to kick people around as they please.
If they really mean Jack's interpretation and stand by it, I really, really don't understand why they keep writing something else and refuse to change it. I realize that they probably need some leeway, to prevent that some smartass find a loophole, but the wordings so far are *ridiculously* beyond that.

This mirrors what cyn said. what scares me is that jack truly seems to believe that only 70 sims worth of that type of content will want to move initially

Except for the bordellos tho wasn't it?

BTW Jacks Office Hours transcript is up here:

http://www.slapt.me/wiki/index.php/Office_Hours_Transcript_-_Jack_Linden:_05-14-2009

yep, people can shoot at each other however long they like, but going upstairs to the girls afterwards is beyond the pale.

As our American cousins say, go figure.

Colonial cousins

On the bright side, you can advertise your naughty products and services using various weapons-related slang and euphemisms.

What about if you, as a private individual, have an open door policy for any passers by, and more than just one dusty bed hidden in an attic?
What if you have more than one friend/ acquaintance visiting and derobing at a time?

Why is 90% of the discussion on this topic based around sellers of adult products, when those who *buy* or *use* the products are likely to be poleaxed in some way or other?



Not having a clear definition of adult content, or knowledge of arse from elbow from donkey, I can see how things can be "missed". Though I'm more inclined to believe things were missed by putting on some Lalala Fingerhats and opaque sunglasses when stumbling past many places so as to keep the stats low enough.

And I am getting more and more sick of this being all about the businesses. What about the people who bought land and currently have a private home, or even nothing there, but may have wanted to build a business later? Whereis the line between business and public service drawn for those who offer somewhere to socialise and get their pixels out, but who have no tangible product to market? What about those who happen to simpyl visit places or do a little shopping now and then, who cannot reach certain sellers and venues without passing some form of ID test that others don't require even if they've got a basement full of BDSM toys on their mature personal residence?

I'm sick of the whole thing. It's not just about businesses, but even they cannot know what's happening as apparently they can sell what they want on mature land, so long as they don't use naughty words. So what, exactly, is the reason for a new continent and all this BS? To move a few large well known (and usually laggy) sex clubs whilst others slip under the radar as well visited private homes? The first step of a plan to remove all us pervs by treating us as slowly warmed frogs?

Here's a genious idea - Have a discussion about *if* adult content even is that offensive to anyone with a mind wider than a gnatt's chuff. If so, then move to discussing what might be considered too offensive and extreme to be where someone may stumble across it. Only then would it be time to start making word lists (which should be public FFS), looking into land swaps, dealing with grey areas and suchlike.

But that won't happen, as LL clearly already know what they're going to do, and who they're going to do it to. And they're only brining the KY on the promise they're really trying to be gentle with us.

This is my rifle,
This is my gun...