RC Questions

We're not employees.

But there would still be enforcement.. how would that be different from this other than an additional level of segregation and enforcement somehow between mature and pg? It is not neccessarily a bad idea, but if deemed neccessary, couldn't that second level of adjustment happen after Ursula has had a chance to settle down?



If they flag everyone at the door for verification, isn't that more restrictive than the current plan?



But if the policy is enforced, there would still be forced movements. If not enforced, then it would only be a policy on paper.



If you do not consider a car dealership oppressive for refusing sale to those not able to prove they can legally transport a car from the lot, why do you consider LL oppressive for attempting to do similar with adult content? It is true that they are technically complying with currently existing law, but that does not mean they are complying with the spirit of that law.



Money is neither communist nor capitalist. Both use monetary systems. The difference is in property rights, i.e. who controls the means of production. That is an off topic discussion though.. send me an IM if you want to discuss it further.



It is funny actually... personally I think fear of communism has caused way too many problems in the world (which does not mean communism is a great system, just not one that should be feared).

People should seriously be demanding to know what the long term plans are since "Phase 1" is causing so much trouble.

What is phase 2? and Phase 3? What is the long term plan?

Why does Linden Lab allow rumors to develop like LL is going to take all the content and declare LL owns all the IP rights and flip it to full permissions and stick creative commons on everything against the will of the content IP owners?

LL needs to tell us what the 5 year plan is and let us decide what our next steps are.

I do not use voice on principle lol although I will listen to the audio. I do not know why I was invited to another BB meeting as there are many here that deserve to go as I have attended one and to be honest they are in my opinion a bit of a waste of time, as LL have decided what they are going to do, so why not just do it instead of placating the customers with typical LL corporate BS. It's just a PR exercise with the lawyers present.

I doubt we will have any real impact as has been seen here in the forums and LL are not concerned about making it totally public knowledge, probably until it is to late for the masses to have a concern. I will continue to help facilitate the wiki for this and any future FU's that LL seem to continually steer as its important to contain the facts in one area that people can read and decide on for themselves.

As far as I am concerned now I want to see the facts about the changes on the table, how and when and what LL intends to do. To keep holding these meetings where nothing seems to be achieved is a waste of everybody's time. Why ask us for sensible input as has been voiced here when they have no intention of using it and if they cannot be honest with us as customers how can we help with any steering groups as we do not know the honest reasons for LL doing this.

Lets get the show on the road and LL can deal with the damage to its customer base afterwards.

Oooo!

"You do not wish to know .. anything. You wish only to speak. That which you know, you ignore, because it is inconvenient. That which you do not know, you invent." Delenn
Sounds like some of the discussions going on on these threads

That's why a lot of the extreme stuff stated on here about what people are going to do) rings hollow to me. If people can criticise LL for being insincere in the past and not following through on things, I think that some of the denizens of this forum could be accused of same.

You were the one saying that if they don't advertise, they're not a business. And yes, I fully believe that Sex workers will continue to ply their trade on PG and Mature land if other avenues are closed off. Non-verified escorts won't have to get verified- they'll simply adopt a different business model. they'll do the out-call things- even hang around high traffic areas and IM people offering their services.
And none of that will be against the rules that LL is laying down. after all, the "adult content" will be taking place somewhere private- outside the G-team's jurisdiction. At least according to Blondin, anyway.

It was meant as an example of how the changes LL wants to make are *deeply* flawed, and won't accomplish what the want.




I do not dispute the concept of zoning. In fact, I think it wise to implement a fairly rigid zoning scheme. What LL is doing is leaving almost *all* of the old content in place- Anything *unadvertised* goes on mature land. you just can't shout it from the rooftops.

The "I'm in a pg sim stuck next to a mature sim with a titty bar" crowd has been asking for this for a long time. LL isn't giving them what they asked for. LL *is* giving them the status quo with an added keyword search, and the ability to AR your mature neighbor pretty much at will



Alex, I'm working with the information I have. I happen to think that it is pretty accurate, but it's also the *only* information I have. I would be pleased as punch if i had the whole complete plan laid out before me, but LL won't *tell* me what all they're doing. they'll only tell me what they *want* to do, as if it were self evident that their plan *does* all those things.

It *doesn't* though. Not even *Close*.

MY arguments is based upon the facts I have at hand. LL's argument seems to be one of assertion- "Because we said so".



PLease, let's don't get into RL zoning laws. They *do not apply here*. this is *virtual* land we're talking about. ones and zeros written magnetically upon hard drives within a computer mainframe. RL zoning, and whether they are justified or not, or how they are arrived at or enforced (or not) is not at issue here.

what *is* at issue is that LL sold server space with certain criteria. those criteria are unacceptable to some number of users. LL wishes to change the criteria.

Well and good. make changes that make *sense*. PG and Mature sims shouldn't be all jumbled together as they are on the main grid.

there should be discrete blocs of PG and Mature land so that the one doesn't have to look at the shenanigans of the other.

BUt LL is keeping them all in place, and telling the mature residents that they can still get their freak on as long as they don't advertise it and it's not open to the public. LL never said "x meters away from PG land, or to keep it off the front lawn. they said to keep it out of *search*

In trying ti minimize the PR disaster, they have hamstrung their plan before it had a chance to even *try8 to do something.

Oh, and the people who live next door to an adult club? loosen up, relax, and try to enjoy yourself. you moved there, you *stay* there*, and the adult club is probably doing *nothing* wrong by being where it is.

It they break the rules, AR them. IF they don't, then move if you can't stand the sight of them. Indecency is in the eye of the beholder





I think that this is the most likely possibility- but there are residents and groups in-world pushing for this too. I just want to know if there's more than 3k of them.

{QUOTE=]If you go in assuming that LL is lieing about their figures, then there is no point in asking for the backup, or discussing anything at all with them. If they are going to outright lie, then they almost certainly do have a strong alterior motive for all this, which is not likely to change due to protest.[/QUOTE]

Let me try to state this clearly. I don't *think* that LL are lying about their figures. I think that they have gathered bad data, and since it supported their preconceptions about what is "normal" for SL, they aren't looking any further.

I think that they are clinging to a faulty, inaccurate sample because it favors their plan and tells them that uprooting that Adult contingent of SL is "no big deal"

I'm willing to take any *evidence* to the contrary into account, but I am *unwilling* to include unsupported assertions in my calculations. I have seen plenty of numbers form the people on this forum and others which lead me to belive that what numbers LL *has* released are *wrong* that doesn't make LL *Liars*. It makes them *wrong*.

I wouldn't be trying to convince them if I thought that they were *lying*. I'd simply try to scare up enough people for a class action suit for fraud, and leave it at that.



I don't doubt that they have internal reporting that would give them a better set of metrics to act upon. the plain fact is that they are not using them, because if they *were*, they would have a *different, more effective plan*.
That they are still pushing this steaming pile of goat poop tells me that they haven't availed themselves of the means they have to collect such metrics.

Perhaps by prodding them, we can get them to actually look at the whole picture, rather than one little piece. If they wanted the benefit of the doubt, then they ought to have been more thorough in their research and planning for this step.

If someone like me- outside the loop, and with no particular training in this sort of thing, can see the gaping holes in their plan, surely i can expect that LL's paid experts can see the same thing? And if they don't, they need to be replaced- they are *badly* mismanaging this change and are doing it the hardest way possible, both for the residents *and* LL.

So, why should I give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they have more information than I do? They're obviously not using it, either by choice or incompetence

Either way, I see no reason to *trust* their numbers, whatever they are. I want to *see* them if they have them, and I suspect that they *don't* have them. I suspect that they never got that far in the process.

In my nightmares, I see the LL board hearing from two schools, one business, two adult content providers, a few churches, and a dozen AR's about a strip club opening up on the land adjacent to a PG parcel, or being chased around the welcome area by a giant squeaky penis, that calling that a "sample" and basing their plan on the "need" to do some thing about that stuff. then leaving the research at that.



The point is *who cares*? If someone votes for the JIRA more than once through alts, they are merely doing what LL does every thing it touts how many "users" it has. It still adequately conveys the depth of feeling, and the importance of the issue.

Besides, LL is more than happy to count the alts when it comes to making an impression on a potential client.

Millions of users who will all see your billboard in the welcome area! Sign up now for your full sim for a corporate headquarters in-world! they'll show up in droves! Did we mention millions of users?

My point is this. If you are willing to give LL "The benefit of the doubt" and assume that they have better numbers than they are showing in this argument, with all evidence to the contrary; then why be so rigorous about who's voting the JIRA?
You assume that people are gaming the vote. I'll tell you honestly, it never occurred to me to do that. I have a total of 6 alts, and Valerius Constantine is the only one who voted the JIRA. Why shouldn't I give the rest of the SL residents the benefit of the doubt, and believe that they'll do the same?



Ah, so what you are saying is that you discount numbers presented to you, on the basis that they might not be accurate, even though you have no proof that they aren't.
Fair enough. Why then do you complain when I do the same with LL's numbers (such as they are) when in some instances, such as the total amount of "adult content" affected by the changes, they have been refuted a dozen times over?
When they have moved the goalposts on what constitutes "adult content" and they are still in a state of flux?

When they came up with the number before they had a working definition of what "adult content" was?

Seriously alex- the LL numbers and assumptions not only have more holes than a collander, the very thing they're supposed to represent *keeps changing from week to week*!
If *they* don't know what will have to go to Ursula and what won't, then why are they doing something idiotic like predicting that the number will be between 2% and 4%?

They gave out a number that *obviously*, and on the face of it, *THEY HAD NO IDEA IF IT WAS ACCURATE OR NOT*!

That is LL's track record in a nutshell.

I am choosing to believe that they are merely "challenged", rather than actively trying to swindle me. but that's about as far as my "benefit of the doubt" goes.

If I wanted to be led on dangerous journeys I would sign up for an arctic expedition or something rather than, as I prefer to do, sit in front of a computer creating content and writing scripts and socialising in SL... that's just me, though.

I really, really am not sure what point you are trying to make.

We can only go by what we know.
And can only use what methods are available like the jira.

Please note, it is not just what LL has not said its what they have said.
as for NOT Said: Are what rules we need to follow also a corporate secret?

You seem to be say wait and see if the bus drives of the cliff and then yell "look out" after its over. Are you seriously suggesting we should not be pointing out problems until after they occur and have already caused damage?

I want to hear, what you think is good about the plan, what you think is bad about the plan, what would make it better. I thought that was the actual point of this thread thrashing out suggestion on definitions & finding bugs in the implementation & ways to improve it. They are most likely going to do this anyway, supposedly they also want some input. Wait and see does not any of accomplish that.

We already know, it may turn out good, it may turn out bad, it may be a mixed blessing. I am just not sure what action you are trying to advocate. "Shut up and hope for the best?"

Well I am yelling "Look Out!" cause I see a Huge Tractor-trailer stalled in the middle of the road and the bus driver ain't slowing down! (You like cute phrasing, hows that?)

Er, yes they CAN do anything they want. It's their business and their product. That's kind of my point in this. Wishing it was different doesn't make it so.

If it's that easy to build an effective competitor to SL, how come nobody has?

I postulate that it isn't that easy, otherwise someone would have done it and would be reaping the big rewards form it. It has thus far failed. That means that LL are the big kids on the block, like Microsoft, and can (and will) do whatever they want with their product.

QUOTE=Argent Stonecutter]We're not employees.[/QUOTE]WTG on completely missing my point, there.

Their business model depends on keeping tens of thousands of content developers happier with SL than with the alternatives, because the content in SL is the barrier to entry of potential competitors using the same viewer technology.

Nobody else has the content. Oh, yeah, I already said that.

No, no, I didn't miss your point.

It occurs to me that a very good way for Linden Labs to help me find the stuff I want with search and to avoid the stuff I don't want to see, would be to let me use stuff like phrase search, wildcards and excluding terms and so forth that I use all the time with Google.

Or are these capabilities already there? In which case they might consider publicising them a bit better!

They are already there and you're right, they should publicise them better.

For example:

"bed"-sex

Works in not returning sex beds.

They could even do that on top of the new checkbox system. which only really effectively sorts by overall parcel rating.

They should also make it clear to users that for example:
CheckBoxing ADULT returns PG Mature and Adult stuff on ADULT Land etc etc,
not exactly the most useful sorting.

So if they believe that they can still do enough to maintain a profit (and maybe increase it) then they CAN do anything they want, without having to ask for our permission, yes?

But this is already quite apparent even without the Jira. Look at the land sales of PG land vs. Mature. PG is less expensive. The only reason to choose Mature over PG land really seems to be because "I want to do anything I choose on my land". Shouldn't that dictate the vote? Shouldn't that dictate who is the majority and who is the minority? Shouldn't that dictate who should move? Lastly, don't those numbers simply fly in the face of the "mystery numbers" LL claims that they have?

I must be missing something. What other reason would there be for such a vast difference in the amount of Mature land available as opposed to PG land?

In fairness, no. Those would be really nice and useful tools, but building your own filters are "expert tools" which most users probably wouldn't use, and as such it wouldn't solve the main problem.
Namely, it seems, that any time a Fox journalist needs an article, they can simply log into SL, type "Boobies" in search and implode in a little cloud of self-righteous indignation.
Given the focus on cleaning up search terms (even down to the Linden-approved tactics of lying and obfuscating them), it seems any actual "predictability" of the inworld experience is secondary, and merely a nice catchphrase.

I just did an interesting test tho.

Searched for certain non sex item for sale on land that also has sexual content on it
adding the -sex also made the non sex item no longer findable.

Rather interesting actually.

Sure. Just like Apple did when they told Adobe to "sod off, we're replacing Mac OS" and Adobe said "OK, we'll just make Photoshop for Windows" and Apple said "wait, we didn't mean it" and delayed the release of Rhapsody for three years until they could run a minimally tweaked (Carbonized) Photoshop under OS X.

I'm not saying companies don't have the right to do stupid things, just that there's a limit to how far they can go and get away with it.

I am sure all of that is clearly stated in the TOS...HAHAHAHAHAH.
BT

I was there for most of the meeting. About 5 Linden staff attended, and about 20 customers. Unfortunately I did not have logging turned on in local chat, and the answers were in voice, so hopefully someone else can post that.

A lot of good questions were asked, and some new information in the answers.

A few things I can report in their answers:

* They do not have the technology to do contextual search

* The filtered words list will NOT be static, it will evolve

* They will attempt to keep the land market orderly (not price parity)

* The reason for not widely broadcasting the Adult Content changes is they are still working on it and getting feedback. Once its final, they will announce it to everyone.

*TOS will have to be revised (probably community standards too) and customers will have to accept the changes to keep logging in

*They say CSI would rate as mature, thought the draft definition right now makes it Adult.

You can just use Google itself to search, adding this to the search string:

site:world.secondlife.com

(which by the way works in the internal web browser in the client, and is not filtered. So much for hiding stuff from people)

It seems there are actually several votes of sorts already in place.

I am sure this is out dated but I do see a trend:
(any way to find current stats?)

Anyway, Supply and Demand?
Seems like a vote in favor of more mature activitys to me!

Argent, then we are in agreement. Whether this is a bonehead maneouver on the part of LL is open for speculation and future historians, but for people to assert that what they are planning on doing is somehow illegal and/or that their customers should have some VETO power over their business decisions is wishful thinking at best, in my opinion.

People are acting like LL should be responsive to a group (us) who are quite apparently a source of embarrassment to them. Sorry I'm not attacking anyone but where is there an example of LL ever really doing that? I mean unless they were forced to.

Maybe LL knows or think they know something about the world economy that we don't. Maybe they do have a buyer waiting in the wings. Maybe they have those "potential" millions of new users who won't embarrass them-whatever!

Would they treat people they respected the way they are treating us now? LL only respects one thing actually and that isn't people. Even those new users, if they actually come, have a very limited use.

I love the post that proceeded this one I'm replying to-the post about capitalism vs communism. I'm aware how bad communism looks (italics) as reported by the capitalist run and controlled media.

Did you ever notice how crimes against the corporatocracy are pursued vigorously yet consumer issues linger for long times in the courts? Auto repair fraud is a billion dollar industry in the USA-and there's only lukewarm response to addressing it. The point to that being the corporate mindset is focused entirely on profits. Oh yeah there is a myth about how that translates into a better product. Black and white thinking doesn't work in exploring that I think and there are good businesses and people who try to do good work.
But at the corporate level the ideology is way too often "grow the business and anything you do to accomplish that goal is good"

This is already too long I realize but what the hey-NONE of this matters anyway.
In the area I live there are two cafes/coffe houses on is run by an individual the other is corporation owned.
With individual run businesses it could go either way but this place (where i frequently have lunch) is a friendly easy going place. People hang out here for hours doing really whatever they want as long as they don't destroy the place-it's very loose honestly. The people who work at this non corporate owned place are relaxed and fun-think lots of conversations and goofing around.

At the corporate coffee house employees are in uniform and they act accordingly. People do buy coffee at the corporate cafe but it's more a get what you need and go place-there are places to sit but the corporate cafe doesn't have the kind of ambience that makes you want to hang out-it not really friendly or relaxed. But then when did you ever see a relaxed businessman?

How this relates to SL and. everything-for me, is that I had been a drifter in SL until I met someone who introduced me to this very friendly area. Dark Side clubhouse is/was (was cause the move will definitely change it) an extremely friendly place and that's because Keaira & Lasher know how to create that environment for people. Both Lasher & Keaira are human being focused though NOT profits first focused.

Linden Labs wouldn't be able to create a cozy human centric environment if the plans for that were on the front page of their bank statement.

http://www.gamepolitics.com/2009/05/11/congress-awaits-ftc-report-explicit-content-virtual-worlds



so perhaps those of you in america might like to give Mr Kirk a call and tell him just how rubbish Aristotle are..