RC Questions

Even if the JIRA is 2 people and the rest are bots, that's still two more people than the one in favor of the plan has. Anyone in favor of it can post a similar JIRA issue, and just as many bots can vote on it.

Entirely possible. Even *likely*. that doesn't change the fact that if they want to say they they're doing this because of the numbers, then they either have to show them, or put up with people like me demanding that they do.



Manipulate the results? of a simple numbers chart showing "All PG please" versus "I want to do anything I choose on my land"

Because *that's* where the argument really is. whichever of those two groups is smaller is the one that needs to go into the game preserve. We don't move all the people out of North America to protect the wolves. there are more people than wolves. We stake out a protected area for the wolves, and preserve them in that fashion.

This is a similar situation. there is a group of people who must be protected from, or restricted from accessing Adult content.

Is that group smaller than the adult content they want/need to avoid? If not, the segregating the adult content makes sense. But if there *are* fewer in number, then the only plan that makes sense is to put *them* in the game preserve and keep the rest of us *out*.

LL claims to have the numbers to back that decision up. as one of the people who will be forced to move (although truth be told, I won't mind- I'm not particularly attached to the land I'm on), I'm not out of line to ask for the numbers, and to try to collect numbers of my own to refute them.

That's not *manipulating* the numbers. That's *questioning* them and making sure that they say what LL *says* they say.



We're nopt talking about profit/loss statement or the eleven herbs and spices here.

We're talking about a chart that says "we have x number of complaints and x number of residents who want to do whatever the heck they like on land that they own."

That's all I want to see. If I'm legitimately outnumbered, even by a little, I'll go quietly, because that's the logical thing to do, and I'm an accommodating kind of guy. But if the numbers don't say what LL *says* they say, then I'll want a better explanation before I move.

Frankly, that's the only reason I can see for not showing them. In poker, you don't show your hand because you're trying to trick an opponent into believing that you have a stronger hand than you actually do. If you have a full house or better, you are *itching* to show that puppy!. A pair of deuces, not so much.

If LL is holding a pair of deuces, it certainly isn't for *my* benefit- Why should I then accommodate their plan?



You do if you want them to trust you and act like good citizens rather than angry customers. you do if you operate by the "Linden Tao".

You *don't* operate that way if you have something to hide from your customers. Which is what I think LL is doing right now.

^V^

Add me to that unhappy list.

OK....I'm going to try type this without too many mistakes.
All these weeks I've been beating my brains out as to WHY they are even doing this and a few comments stuck in my head that were made by Blondin...No1 being that this is the FIRST step.( many more to come)..something is really going on and it isn't adult versus pg.
Seems to me like it does everyone else that it would be a hell of a lot simpler to make Ursula the pg grid from a business point of view in time and cost.
So I think we can rule out that...for some reason they want the mainland and it would be almost impossible to build another 5000 sim grid...they can't run this one very good and that many more sims all on the same channel would be super lag...250 more sims wont have too much effect.
When they said the ones who are most *impacted* will get the swap...what they actually meant to say is the ones who generate the most money for them will get the swap.
All the rest of us are expendable..we either follow their rules or bye bye..remember they said they had a million new users waiting...hahaha ( wishful thinking on their part)
We are sheep to them and they are pulling the wool over our heads..letting us all bicker back and forth in these threads...keeping us busy while they do their dastardly deeds.
Someone somewhere has came into SL with some BIG bucks and them and SL have made some major changes..what it is we can only guess but I also think that those who are still in mainland after the swap will have to move also to a different section of mainland.
The reality of this all is that SL has grown to about all it can, there is no way on Gods earth they can handle another 5000 sims...just too many servers for one company.
They have partnered with some organization...it doesn't matter if its education/religion or business based...THEY WANT OUR LAND bottom line!
Mr M's way of thinking is....we have invested a lot of money and time here so he believes we will bow down at their feet and delete our kinky stuff and obey him like he's a god....NOT!
They know we are the majority and they would have to make Ursula 10 times larger to hold us all and they just cant do it...impossible!
So only their money makers will get the swap the rest of us have to delete or depart.
I actually think Blondin is siding with us a little and thats why he is sending those little hints

You may think I've blown this out of proportion but to me it's the only thing that makes any sense as to why it's happening.

whew i hate typing

P.S. I wonder what they would do if the first day they start taking tickets for the move they didn't get any....LOL
P.S.S whoa..since SL refuses to post this on the login screen we are actually the only ones who will be putting in tickets...we can force their hand...and make them work for it, can you imagine how long it would take them to hunt us all down to inform us we have to move? and....if we moved to another blog not under their control and let this one die....let them make assumptions for a while... I want to see some sweat on their foreheads wondering what we are all doing...just a thought

Not sure where you are going with that... sex workers would be in the category that would be working in Ursula. They could in theory atttempt to continue illicitly in mature land, but would likely be doing so under the guise of an 'escort agency'.. the same gimmick used to get around zoning restrictions for that industry in RL.



There have been examples posted in this thread and another related thread in resident answers pointing out cases where people have indeed been living next to clubs or whatever where the conversations carry across property lines. This is one of the reasons there is zoning in RL (which is not restricted to matters restricted... RL clubs often are limited as to where they can locate due to noise and parking issues. Parking is not a problem in SL, but noise can be).



Unless you are incorrect. You are critical of LL for not providing sufficient data to form a solid conclusion, yet at the same time treating speculation as fact. You may be correct, but that is not a given.

Going back to RL, the fact that it is nigh impossible to prevent individual acts of mischief does not invalidate the concept of zoning.



Personally I think the non-NIMBY aspect is a very loud voice, and primarily from outside.



If you go in assuming that LL is lieing about their figures, then there is no point in asking for the backup, or discussing anything at all with them. If they are going to outright lie, then they almost certainly do have a strong alterior motive for all this, which is not likely to change due to protest.



They get the benefit of the doubt for the very reason you need to demand the numbers rather than simply present them with the numbers, because there is every reason to believe they have internal reporting that can give them such numbers.

Meanwhile, even if every voter is an individual and not an alt (by the way, I never said bot.. not all alts are bots), the votes still represent opinions based on partial facts formed by people who have different stakes in the success of SL than LL does. That does not invalidate the JIRA, but it does weaken the suggestion that it is a sufficiently convincing arguement to scrap these changes.



They could be a lot higher, but would be is a harder case to make. It depends on how aggressively anyone wanting to stuff the balot wanted to act, whether they thought the additional votes could be traced to them somehow, any number of reasons. And again, I did not say it *was* happening, just that it could be, and the fact that it could gives LL a convenient out. You are responding as if it could not be happening.



But LL already announced this, for whatever reason. Why would anyone agreeing with it start a JIRA saying, essentially, do what you are already doing? Even if they actively put up such a poll, why would people feel the need to go out of their way to tell LL not to stop?



And my counter is to point out that simply saying 'we do not like this' as a JIRA is not an arguement in and of itself. It is safe to say that more than 3,000 people are concerned about this and would rather not have to deal with changes. That does not in and of itself mean change is bad, merely unpopular.

Although the $100US per person is exaggerated, if LL did not believe that, despite the protests, this would somehow enhance their bottom line, they would not be doing this.
3000 voting against it might represent a loss greater than any gain they will see from this, but that is not a given in that just because those 3000 are voting against on a JIRA does not mean they would automaticly pack up and quit if this goes through.



They really have been doing a poor PR job on this, and it really is not helping.



I am not so sure that the affects will be that deep. I am sure they will be deeply felt by some, and that there will be an adjustment period. I prefer to think of this as them leading people on a dangerous journey. Some will give up on the way, some will fall down on the way, and there is no certainty of a promised land at the end of the journey. But there is no certainty that it will be worse at the end either. Uncertainty is always scary.

But, Who said we wanted to go on a dangerous journey?




Actually, I do not see why it needs to be a dangerous journey.
Though I would prefer not to make it in the first place.
The problem is LL does not seem to have a safe route mapped out.
And they forgot to pack the necessary gear and to bubble wrap the breakables.
Right now I just want them to pick a safer route,
and make sure the cart does not break down along the way.

Noone, hence it being unpopular. That does not mean it is neccessarily bad for the tour company, even in the long run.

That is kind of cute but dismissing it as "unpopular does not mean its bad" also does not mean its good either.

You can pretty much use that line to dismiss anything some people are against .
With out examining why its unpopular and also why it is maybe a good idea,
and then weighing the results, you are just making cute oratory.
It sounds nice but it does not prove anything either way.

A totally ridiculous example:
""Shooting ones self in the head is not popular, That does not mean it is necessarily bad""

OK big assumption, I am adult content and under the rules as they stand now we will get a move, if we don't then everyone should be OK I am optimistic about the changes insofar as that LL has just raised the value of my land, a full sim to potentially high prices, so after the move we will rethink our position here in SL and then act accordingly and if we then tier down we will have made a hefty profit on the land. We can then buy a cheap smaller plot on mature for my wifes things and continue with the other SL project we are working on and just have a sign with URL script for our RL adult website as that sign would be PG rated

Problem is at the moment that until LL says these are the new rules, everyone is in Limbo. Once the new rules are out then the gaming can begin

There is a KB6010 definitions meeting scheduled for today. Because it will be in voice and past office hours transcripts show 40 of us vs 1 or 2 Linden staff does not work well, I have sent the following to Blondin and JP via email and notecard (in a minute), its based on the SLapt Questions and issues page:



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IN GENERAL:

(1) Any definitions you arrive at that are more restrictive than the current PG and Mature ratings constitute a downgrade in your product, and will be unacceptable to many of your current customers.

(2) The proposed definitions in KB6010 dated 24April2009 are much more restrictive in all cases.

(3) A mere statement of the general policy in the Knowledge Base is not enough detail to tell customers and Governance Team what is allowed and what is not.

IN MORE DETAIL:

(4) Current Mature land is accessible to any customer, and has no limits on activities other than what is generally prohibited by Linden Labs (sexual ageplay, gambling, unauthorized banking, etc.). Future Adult land will have the same activity limits, but be restricted to verified customers only. We estimate this as approximately half of active customers.

(5) The CSI television show, among the most popular in the US, often depicts "Representations of intensely violent acts, whether or not photo-realistic (for example, depicting death, torture, dismemberment or other severe bodily harm)", and is rated for age 14 and up. Linden Labs proposes to restrict such to only a small part of the mainland (the Adult areas) for a supposedly over 18 audience.

(6) Social alcohol use occurs in Disney children's cartoons (such as Gaston's bar scene in Beauty and the Beast), and yet Linden Labs proposes to restrict this from about 20% of the mainland (the PG areas).

(7) There are many ways to communicate in Second Life. The phrase "advertises or publicly promotes" needs to be carefully defined so that both customers and governance team know what is allowed and what is not. The following section lists communication channels which we want to know are allowed or not allowed:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(1) Search Entries:

Businesses and public venues of course wish to make themselves known, and so use the search listings. The new maturity settings filter on search words, and possibly on region and parcel settings. It is clear that the intent is to have the region/parcel settings, the actual content present on a parcel, and search entries be consistent in maturity. But there are several cases of not meeting this consistency:

* (a) Attempting to reach people who do not have the adult checkbox in search active. This can be done by evading the keyword filter in several ways: synonyms, mi$$pe11ings, merged/split words, other languages, putting words in the ad image.

* (b) Attempting to reach people who *only* have the adult checkbox active and spamming with popular adult words when the actual content being promoted is *not* adult.

(2) Use of words on public Mature/PG parcels:

Besides search entries, there are lots of other places you can use words, and the filtered words list is not comprehensive. So for each of the following, are (2.1) The actual filtered words, and (2.2) variations with similar meaning allowed?

(a) In object title, or description
(a1) when set to show in search
(a2) when NOT set to show in search

(b) In floating text
(b1) attached to objects
(b2) attached to parcel owner/staff
(b3) attached to guests

(c) In notecards distributed on the parcel

(d) In local chat
(d1) generated by object scripts
(d2) generated by owner/staff
(d3) generated by guests

In sign and vendor textures
(f) In voice chat
(g) In private messages (IM)
In third party websites linked from the parcel
(i) In landmarks distributed on the parcel

(3) Use of words in Groups:

It is not clear if the new maturity and verification settings can identify or control group membership. If not, a group likely will have a mix of verified and non verified members. So are (3.1) The actual filtered words, and (3.2) variations with similar meaning allowed?

(a) In group notices
(b) In items attached to group notices
(c) In group info (presumably a group member can open info, even if it is filtered from search)
(d) In group chat

(4) Presence of of items/products/objects in Public Mature and PG regions:

There is a distinction between an adult word itself, e.g. "bondage", and an item present on the parcel, e.g. "bondage chair". So which of the following are allowed?

(a) Rezzed prim objects which are scripted and functional?
(b) Rezzed prim objects which are for display and not functional?
(c) Items for sale in vendors with textures depicting its use?
(d) Items for sale in vendors with only verbal descriptions in texture or vendor title/description?
Items worn by parcel owner/staff
(f) Items worn by visitors?

(4) Actual activities in Public Mature and PG regions:

A further distinction is between an item, and carrying out an activity itself. A fully public venue with only one purpose is easy to classify, but there are other cases such as:

(a) Mixed use parcels. Some parcels contain, for example a store, and also a residence in a skybox
(b) Rentals. They are often advertised to find tenants, but normal use is private

So, how must not fully public places conform their activities?

(c) If any part is public, it all has to conform to the public places rules?
(d) Separation beyond maximum draw distance and controlled access by teleporter or security device can create a "private zone"?
If a rental is advertised (furnished house with sex bed), but the tenant does not advertise and uses it privately?
(f) Adjacent parcels with the same owners, where one is public, the other has controlled access?

(5) Public vs Private

Listing a place in search has been clearly defined as making a place public. There are many other ways to make a place known. We need a clear definition of which of these things make a place public, and which make or let it be private:

* Word of mouth,
* Third party websites,
* Business or Privacy Signs on the Parcel,
* Advertising signs, vendors, and landmark givers off the Parcel which point to it
* Land settings which limit access
* Security devices
* Privacy features in the build (fences, hedges, walls)

We know that the search filter works by dropping filtered words from the *input* as if you did not type them. It does not filter the *output*.

That's a simple to program filter, and a very ineffective one.

A friend of mine *HAD* an adult first name. I didn't think it was that bad, it was about a pierced part of his anatomy. Apparently, he has this piercing in real life. Not my thing, but hey, live and let live.

Anyway, recently he discovered he was banned for a week with no explanation. When the week was over and he signed back in, his new first name is the initials of his old one.

PC.

Ironic, no?

This is another "by invitation only" event, right? (That's probably the only way it can work, to the extent it can work at all. I'm just idly curious how they decide who gets to go to the party--and if it will be the same decision process for who gets to go to Ursula. )

Its a matter of minimizing the disruption. With a global downgrade in allowed activities by rating, a LOT of people will want or need to move.

If they change the land definitions, we should have some option to deal with it other than move. So at least be able to put in a ticket to re-rate your current sim, given enough landowners in the sim agree.

Ah but not all PG land residents are asking for this - in fact I would suggest that it is a very small percentage - by forcing a move to PG content on anybody with PG land you are suggesting they THEY be moved to a "ghetto", "segregated" and all those other things that you find so abhorrent with the forced Adult Continent move. So it's OK if it's done to someone ELSE, just not to you?

It would have to be voluntary if it's done at all.

And it's moot - Linden have said that they're not going to do this because it doesn't meet some sort of goal that they have (and no, they don't owe us an explanation of what their business plan in for their product, in the same way that any other product manufacturer isn't obligated to share future product strategies with its customers). So suggesting it yet again is just increasing post counts.

No of course there isn't. LL are doing this because this is (for right or wrong) the direction that they want their product to develop. They feel (rightly or wrongly) that there is a large group of potential customers out there who would come in to SL if they made this change. They may well have some marketing data that supports that, I don't know. That's how businesses tend to be run.

They don't owe customers the "Why", I agree. But they do owe them the "How, What and When", explained clearly concisely and consistently, IN THE OPEN. Not in little read forums and blogs, or "By invitation only" meetings or office hours held at times convenient only to small segments of the population.

Multiple votes are possible for any JIRA issue. The fact that this is close to the highest vote issue *ever* says something.

I consider the Adult features in 1.23 a bug, therefore I voted for that issue to remove it. If someone actually *wants* those features they can post an issue to put them in. The nearest things I have seen to a pro issue has in the tens of votes, ie about 1% as many as are against it.

That would work if SL was a democracy.

But if ONE resident comes up with a suggestion that LL like as a future direction of the product, then it's within their rights to just go ahead and implement it.

It doesn't MATTER how many of us are for or against it - LL will do what they want with THEIR product and we have the choice whether to play in their world or not.

OK, then let me suggest another one - LL don't feel that they have to air out the details of their business decisions on a public forum to try to convince a group of customers that the direction they are setting for their product is one that all their customers like.

Of course, it's easier to assume that LL are lying and making numbers up.

Er, no you don't. Those are the amateur players who show off like that. You don't show a strong hand either, so that the opponent is left guessing as to what you really had.

Setting this situation up like a poker game is fundamentally flawed, though - this is not about bluffing and beating your opponent.

Go ask Coca Cola or Toyota, or Microsoft what their next biggest product is. Then, if they tell you and you don't like it, claim that you want to see the detailed numbers about why they think this is a good business decision for them. If they don't bring forth those numbers to the demands of a customer, claim that they are hiding important information from you and imply that it's somehow your right to know this.

You'll get a long way with that approach....

How about this:

* Anyone affected by re-definition of region ratings may either (a) be given a swap to another region with suitable ratings or (b) request the region rating be changed. If at least 3/4 of the sim agrees with the rating change, make it so.

* Allow suitable time to do this (say, 3 months), before any enforcement for incorrect use begins.

* Linden Labs commits to maintain pricing parity among mainland regions by supplying Adult regions as needed, and re-rating full or full less 1 parcel regions elsewhere on the mainland that come back to maintenance. In the latter case, ask the one landowner if they are OK with the change.

Brenda, I absolutely 100% agree with you. They are so far doing a lousy job of this.

I'm agreeing with you an awful lot lately.....


SL has an image problem, fair enough. And it may be hindering LL's growth. LLis to blame for that image as any group of users. They have been woefully negligent in enforcing their guidelines, the idiotic practice of PG and Mature Regions being next to each other should have been corrected long ago. But, more importantly, LL has NEVER done anything to counter the "SL is full of perverts" stories in the press. Nothing. Has anyone from LL gone on these shows to show what else SL has to offer, or done any proactive campaigning on it's own? Not that I can see. Whenever a Linden speaks it seems to be corporate doublespeak, skirting the issues entirely.

I'm no business genius, but if I were QueenBitch Linden, I would go ahead with clamping down access and getting some sort of verification plan going, set up the New Contininent, but grandfathering current users. Stop with all the nonsense defining, we all know what really qualifies as explicet. All new customers, would be directed to the New Place for their Adult Business and Entertainment needs. Encourage current Adult Businesses to move, but don't require it, give them incentives, just like in RL.Keep Mature as a rating for Non Businesses. Mature means pretty much what it is now. What you do in your personal space is your business, don't go around bothering other people. Then have you clean Family friendly areas.

Classify existing sims by the majority of their current parcel ratings, and encourage people to move to appropriate sims, again with incentives. In time it would shake itself all out. All future sims created would be one rating only. In RL there are no guarantees you woun't see something offensive, at least not until the Nanny State is fully entrenched. We sometimes have to take actions ourselves to avoid what we want to see, or deal with it when we do . What LL is trying to do is give that guarantee, which won't be enough, and people will continue to complain each time something else that isn't on the list comes across their view, and expect LL to fix it for them.

Let advertisers self censor, and diligently investigate AR's. Have staff randomly scan Ad's for compliance along with visiting parcels, again enforce the guidelines. Maybe have some sort of Business Certification Program.

I'd also create Citizen Advisory Boards, where cross sections of residents are assembled to give LL feedback on all their inworld decisions. They would not make or enforce policies, just be a conduit. It would have the potential for FICness, but if done properly could work.

All this requires something LL has never been willing to do: Forethought, creative marketing, customer consideration, and plain old rolling up your sleeves and doing some hard boots on the ground work. Instead of their usual Chicken Little, Cbefore the Horse, Baby out with the bathwater approach.

I did say it was not neccessarily good either, just that unpopularity is not the only measure, and holds less relevance when it represents opinions of people judging something not yet in place, based only on partial information.

It does not mean that those voting in favour the JIRA are wrong, just that the JIRA is limited as an arguement.

And I do agree that the problem of partial information is not merely a matter of LL holding some information back for internal reasons, but poor (possibly deliberately poor) communications of what they have been willing to say openly.

One significant difference to other business-models.

We rent average hardware and average code. But in difference to buy or rent a car or whatever, is all input and output of SL made by us. LL has a plan to change that radical. They want us to change our production and productivity by shrinking our options. This behavior of LL is on all levels wrong. If LL like to establish 3 ratings for whatever reasons, they can do that even in a non-reactionary and in a non-repressive way. A PG continent or some, a Mature continent or some, an Adult continent or some. People could settle on these continents by free choice and free preferences.

This is not difficult. Some typing plus moving some wires is needed to do that and the map and the sim-descriptions has a new face then.

I have no clue, why they do it by forcing the most hard and repressive way. Instead of offering free choice, they put brutal pressure on customers.

This is in no business normal.

If maybe, for example, Fender Guitars offering from now on quadratic or round shaped guitar-bodies additional to the stratocaster/telecaster shapes, I can chose.

If Chrysler (ahahaha...ok, Chrysler is dead now, these smarties...) offers cars with 3 or with 5 wheels additional to cars with 4 wheels I can chose.

But LL has forgotten to make friendly offers.

They offer only pressure on exisiting customers. Not only on adult-item/action-fans. They put pressure on *all* existing customers.

This is not a professional behavior in direction company/customer/biz-partner-relations.

And as said: we have here a very special exception in difference to usual biz: we are not only customers. We are also productive producers of the product. We are biz partners with LL. *We* are Second Life. Literally. Without us is there nothing. Desert.

Again some customers are invited to new brown bag meetings. The problem is only that LL avoids to listen and learn.

It sounds like we are in agreement there... In the post you quoted, I was presenting my understanding of the main arguement of those prefering segregation of PG content. I was not agreeing with them in doing so.