Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Answers to Questions
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Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
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04-12-2009 09:50
From: Couldbe Yue If the thought of there being people in this world who don't like what you have to say and blank it out offends you then you really should consider moving on because it's not going to change. Though not directed to me, I would say that being put on ignore doesn't offend me in any way, but when someone does it, then comes in and dances to the music of it in my face, well, yeah, that's pretty offensive... and stupid. "HAHA! I put you on ignore!" "Great! Glad I was such an influence on you that I forced you to use a technological mechanism to protect your tender sensibilities!  " is what goes through my mind, whilst rolling my eyeballs right out of my head. If someone wants to put me on ignore, fine, put me on ignore. I don't care to know.
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Couldbe Yue
one unhappy customer
Join date: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 1,532
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04-12-2009 09:58
From: Talarus Luan If someone wants to put me on ignore, fine, put me on ignore. I don't care to know.
Don't worry, I would never ignore you  The only people I really have on ignore are those who deliberately set out to stir up trouble - trolls. Nany and her ilk were really the only ones and that was simply because it is bad form to reach into the ether and slap someone for being so illmannered and trollish. but it's better to ignore someone that you know hits whatever nerve than finally snap and end up responding in ways that you probably don't mean. I live in London and the underground is a great example. If you don't learn to block out the fact you've got a 30 minute trip with your nose stuck in someone's armpit and its the middle of summer then you'd never travel or would end up in jail 
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Satiated Desires: Toys for Grown Ups. Inworld: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Norf%20Haven/186/132/55 XSL: https://www.xstreetsl.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&MerchantID=77743&&sort=age&dir=asc Blog: http://satiateddesires.wordpress.com/
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Dogboat Taurog
Registered User
Join date: 27 May 2008
Posts: 133
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04-12-2009 10:03
From: Alexander Harbrough I have always found doing my best to respond politely and calmly to be more productive. It helps calm those who are merely angry so that a meaningful dialogue can occur, and it infuriates those who are just looking for a fight. Maybe it is just a Canadian thing  it may just be a you thing unless all Canadians are the same, and i cant imagine that being the case, unless Canada is full of bored windbags who have nothing to contribute to this thread and no reason to be here.
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Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
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04-12-2009 10:15
From: Couldbe Yue Don't worry, I would never ignore you  Well, that was kinda my point. I wouldn't be upset or care if you (or, indeed, anyone else) did.  From: someone The only people I really have on ignore are those who deliberately set out to stir up trouble - trolls. Nany and her ilk were really the only ones and that was simply because it is bad form to reach into the ether and slap someone for being so illmannered and trollish.
but it's better to ignore someone that you know hits whatever nerve than finally snap and end up responding in ways that you probably don't mean. I don't have a lot of exposed nerves for people to hit (in fact, downright few), but I also have no issues taking up the gauntlet a troll throws down and beating them silly with it. From: someone I live in London and the underground is a great example. If you don't learn to block out the fact you've got a 30 minute trip with your nose stuck in someone's armpit and its the middle of summer then you'd never travel or would end up in jail  Well, that's your own personal "ignore list". Forum ignore lists are like having your own personal bobby, pre-censoring your experiences everywhere you go. 
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Alexander Harbrough
Registered User
Join date: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 601
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04-12-2009 10:16
From: Couldbe Yue I don't know how long you have been in sl really, nor if you've actually ever spent more than 5 minutes in world.
99% of accounts that are blank are either abandoned or if still active they're a troller/griefer.
The basic way a newbie enters sl means that before their head stops spinning they're a member of too many groups because they don't know they can say no when they turn up a place and someone gives them a group invite.
also, the way it usually works is that people very quickly follow the same path.. get a profile pick and fill out the profile a bit. That's the way people settle into the community here. People do the same in most online communities. That does not mean it is good practice. There are many articles out there trying to warn how much people are revealing about themselves, including studies showing that a significant number of people can be identified and tracked down RL simply by what they put in their profiles and/or say publicly. From: someone If they don't, then they're not engaged. Not sure the context there... by engaged, I take it you mean 'being social/interacting?' In my case I do have profiles in MMO's but only for RP purposes and I am careful to limit them to that.... even then I prefer to simply RP. If you meet someone in RL, you do not expect them to hand you a business card explaining who they are, nor to be wearing sandwich boards doing the same. Maybe I am just old fashioned that way  . From: someone even those who run alts for specific purposes - whether it be picking up women through a dance club to 'real' rp will have something in their profile to give them credibility.
In all the years I've been inworld I can't think of one blank profile I've met while out and about that wasn't someone using it for some kind of nefarious activity. But knowing that, wouldn't most people involved in nefarious activity just write an innocuous profile, or one that provided a good cover? From: someone and if you'd read my posts, which you obviously haven't, you'd see I'm not angry at LL. Frustrated occasionally by their complete amateurism but also resigned to it and trying very hard to convince people that they have to stop taking this personally and start detaching from sl. And I am appreciative that the discussion seems to have calmed somewhat, albiet maybe a little too much. I can be naive sometimes, but there are aspects of this that sound like they are worth at least trying to fight, such as the time allowed for moves and lack of support of moves, as well as whether moves and segregation is the right answer at all. Troller boy here fits all the classic signs. He comes in and doesn't contribute anything worthwhile, just posts something contentious in the hope of upsetting/distressing the other posters. Look up the meaning of troll if you still don't get it.[/quote] He might be a troll, and I can see how he comes across as one, but tones as harsh have come from some of those against these changes too. Mostly though I was responding to the nature of the reprisals. Even if he is an alt it does not mean he is trolling. He could really believe what he is saying and not want to risk any backlash in SL to his main. From: someone As for muting people, it happens. There are lots of people who would rather cross the street than talk to me and the feeling is mutual. I've got some on mute here because despite them 'being on my side' every time I read their posts I want to correct their grammar or slap them for being whiny (sorry guys  ). If the thought of there being people in this world who don't like what you have to say and blank it out offends you then you really should consider moving on because it's not going to change. Different philosophies. I put people on ignore only very very rarely in that even though I may not like hearing what they are saying, it could still affect me or be important to hear. To me, freedom of speach is only truely justified if one is also willing to listen.. otherwise it is merely freedom to preach. And if I just 'moved on' because of a disagreement, wouldn't I be a hypocrite? Isn't that just a different form of ignoring?
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Wynochee LeShelle
Polykontexturalist
Join date: 3 Feb 2007
Posts: 658
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04-12-2009 10:17
From: Couldbe Yue If you don't learn to block out the fact you've got a 30 minute trip with your nose stuck in someone's armpit and its the middle of summer then you'd never travel or would end up in jail  Listen, hahahahaha, I die here laughing and my belly hurts, broohahahahaha  while outside of my window neigbors wondering what is wrong with me, hehehehe, omg, hahahaha, this is perfect british humor! Dry and on the point, hahahaha. Well, very similar to Viennas humor -ah - if there were not ever the babylonic language barriere between countries. But hehehehe, this thing reminds me on travels with U-train number 6 in Vienna in summers mostly in early mornings, hahahaha.  rolling on floor.... 
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Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
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04-12-2009 10:31
From: Alexander Harbrough But knowing that, wouldn't most people involved in nefarious activity just write an innocuous profile, or one that provided a good cover? Well, that presumes 1) they are smart enough to do so, and 2) they care (or it matters enough) to bother. To be sure, some of the regular griefer groups, like the PN, create alts and join 10-15 random public groups to make their noob profile look as non-noob as possible, but they know it doesn't matter, and do it just to annoy what they perceive as "wannabee gridcops" (especially when they join said "gridcops" public groups). It is an unfortunate side effect that they plan for that people associate the griefer as a representative to the group, and thus angrily chide the group and/or its owners for the griefer's behavior. Even still, it is not difficult to spot griefer alts, because of the randomness in their groups, or the inclusion of certain, specific groups targeted for griefing. However, the PN and their ilk are far from the majority of people who troll and grief, so their behavior in this regard is more the exception than the rule. From: someone He might be a troll, and I can see how he comes across as one, but tones as harsh have come from some of those against these changes too. Mostly though I was responding to the nature of the reprisals. Even if he is an alt it does not mean he is trolling. He could really believe what he is saying and not want to risk any backlash in SL to his main. Harshness alone does not make a troll, at least not in the accepted sense of the word. Certain specific behavior patterns make one a troll. Everyone can act "trollish" at times, but what makes a real troll is quite specific and often easily identifiable.
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Couldbe Yue
one unhappy customer
Join date: 30 Mar 2008
Posts: 1,532
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04-12-2009 10:40
From: Alexander Harbrough People do the same in most online communities. That does not mean it is good practice. There are many articles out there trying to warn how much people are revealing about themselves, including studies showing that a significant number of people can be identified and tracked down RL simply by what they put in their profiles and/or say publicly.
*snip*
you may have created an account, but you've never actually spent any time inworld have you? It shows by your complete lack of understanding of what a profile is and is used for inworld. Which also explains why you can't grasp why so many people are so thoroughly upset by this.. The SL experience bears no relationship to any other online 'game' 'forum' or those emo facebook/myspace sites. why are you here on this forum? You are a complete outsider, I can only assume that you are a LL subcontractor of some sort and you thought you have a little dabble in here. You don't understand the culture/mindset of sl nor any online site I wager. It probably explains why you're getting such a bad reaction. Your frame of reference is so different to these people that of course you get their backs up. Like a buzzing mosquito they see you as someone who is not really adding value to this at all, except in a spurious theoretical discussion way that has to be detached from anything to do with SL because you haven't enough knowledge to tailor your arguments to the situation in hand.
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Satiated Desires: Toys for Grown Ups. Inworld: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Norf%20Haven/186/132/55 XSL: https://www.xstreetsl.com/modules.php?name=Marketplace&MerchantID=77743&&sort=age&dir=asc Blog: http://satiateddesires.wordpress.com/
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Milla Janick
Empress Of The Universe
Join date: 2 Jan 2008
Posts: 3,075
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04-12-2009 11:18
From: Couldbe Yue why are you here on this forum? Apparently he's here to argue for the sake of arguing.
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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04-12-2009 11:22
From: Couldbe Yue problem of course is that if the store/play area on the ground has to move so does the skybox. The store is advertised but the store (the content that is advertised) is not "adult", so it doesn't have to move. It's all about intent, not whether it shows up in search or not.
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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04-12-2009 11:24
From: Alexander Harbrough Information put in a profile may not be as volitile as, say, a SIN or SSN, but it is still information about you and you are presenting it a lot more publicly. My profile is blank in SL too, as is my myspace profile, my profile on most boards and with the exception of specific RP character backgrounds, blank in all MMOs I have ever been in.
Look at my profile here and in SL and tell me what I'm exposing that I should be worried about.
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Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
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04-12-2009 11:26
From: Alexander Harbrough Understandable, but if the law that I think is behind this does get upheld, LL may have no choice regardless of consequence. The opposite is also true though, if the law gets struck down on anything other than a technicallity, this may all be unneccessary, but that is a pretty big gamble. Except that you have yet to show how the law applies to SL, and your arguments presenting what parts you think are salient to the discussion have been soundly refuted. As such, I don't think the particular law you are referring to is the basis behind LL's intentions or actions. It simply does not apply. From: someone Some sort of solution will have to be found... no ability to confirm ID goes beyond SL. If there is no sure means to confirm ID, doesn't that make fraud and money laundering a lot easier? And doesn't it make identity theft in some ways easier since anyone can claim to be anyone online? Why, yes. Yes, it does! Now you know why it is such a tough nut to crack. Until computers are manufactured by the government as black boxes that are illegal to open and contain lethally explosive tamper-proofing, and we are all chipped/barcoded at birth with an interface to activate said computer, will there ever be a shot at making online ID verification effective. "But that's never going to happen!" Yeah, well, neither will making effective online ID verification. From: someone Too great a reliance on or insufficient security measures on ID checking and we have a police state where it is impossible to do business. Yes, that's right! You get it.  From: someone Somewhere between the two we need to find a solution. Unfortunately, the solution space is filled with schemes which are confined to the extremes. The middle ground is elusive because either circumvention is too easy, or the cost (in terms of economy or society) is too great. The same problem space is shared with DRM. Personally, I tend to follow the notions of Franklin, Jefferson, et al. That we should pattern our society after freedom, innocence until proven guilt, having laws, and punishing those who break them swiftly and severely, but still in accordance to the crime. Enforced, mandated identification and things like DRM fly in the face of such a society, because those systems then become tools of the government and other large entities (read: corporations) to extend unwarranted and abusive control over the people. It is a slippery slope that repeats itself in history time and time again. Give a class of people, a government, or a corporation too much power, and it WILL be abused. The society WILL become totalitarian. The people WILL rise up and overthrow it. All human civilizations have gone through these same phases that we are going through now. The only difference is the metaphorical period clothing and the window dressing.
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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04-12-2009 11:28
From: Alexander Harbrough Understandable, but if the law that I think is behind this does get upheld, LL may have no choice regardless of consequence. If the law you're talking about is held to apply to virtual worlds, then this move will provide no protection whatsoever. This has been pointed out many times, and you have made no attempt whatsoever to respond to this point... instead you brush it aside as if it wasn't the most important part of your position after all.
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Milla Janick
Empress Of The Universe
Join date: 2 Jan 2008
Posts: 3,075
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04-12-2009 11:28
From: Argent Stonecutter Look at my profile here and in SL and tell me what I'm exposing that I should be worried about. You're a Lollygagger.
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Kira Cuddihy
Registered User
Join date: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,375
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04-12-2009 11:34
From: Milla Janick You're a Lollygagger. I hope that was supposed to be a joke.
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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04-12-2009 11:36
From: Milla Janick You're a Lollygagger. If it wasn't for me, there might not have been any Lollygaggers. I was a Lollygagger before it was cool.
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Kira Cuddihy
Registered User
Join date: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,375
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04-12-2009 11:40
but, you are a "Mustelid"
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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04-12-2009 11:45
From: Kira Cuddihy but, you are a "Mustelid" 
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Bambi Newall
Registered User
Join date: 4 Nov 2008
Posts: 155
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Beating the dead horse
04-12-2009 11:47
Why are we so passionate about this, still talking, even though we are beating the dead horse to death?
Because the innovation and the creativity of what SL once was is gone.
SL had changed from the once open-minded culture to this micro-managed dictatorial culture that we are all bemoaning.
Does LL not know by now the path they took is a useless exercise that consumed their manpower and resource and alienated their user-base? If they don't, they are in denial.
But why do they continue on their same path ahead? Because you simply can't expect a non-risk-taker conservative-rigid-minded person to take risk and become an open-minded innovative person.
Their rationale is that they have to "prove" to the court and "prove" the American people that they had made a "good faith" effort, in lawyer's term, to mitigate any lawsuits and do the "right" thing to sanitize SL as a wholesome place for family to play, even though they know damn well it had no practical effect in reality. That is the most conservative, safest bet they can place to "protect" their company and "shield" them from potential harm. That is the exercise they are playing.
That's the difference in long-term vision that we see and short-term vision that they see
They only see this short-term result but failed to see the long-term consequences and ramifications to their future viability as a company when they put locks and prison-bars in their own place to keep it safe, and hand-cuffs into their own residents and restricting movement within SL. But that is too far ahead to worry about.
They have to worry about the immediate first, which is the HYPOTHETICAL FEAR if they don't implement this restriction policy.
Have you seen any innovative improvement in SL lately?
Say goodbye to it. Expect more micro-management.
SL will become the "perfect" place in their eyes when every house has a picket-fence around it, neatly built to their specification. That will make all the managers in LL so HAPPY!!! A dream comes true for them!
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Alexander Harbrough
Registered User
Join date: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 601
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04-12-2009 11:50
From: Couldbe Yue you may have created an account, but you've never actually spent any time inworld have you? It shows by your complete lack of understanding of what a profile is and is used for inworld. Enlighten me. To me a profile is to tell a little about yourself or at least your in world persona, including what group(s) you might belong to. How is that different in SL? From: someone Which also explains why you can't grasp why so many people are so thoroughly upset by this.. The SL experience bears no relationship to any other online 'game' 'forum' or those emo facebook/myspace sites. Most of my online experience is with everquest, which is primarily a game not a social setting, but does have social aspects and some similarities to SL. Many of the EQ forum discussions sound very similar to those here, even though the topics are different. As SoE changes their world over time, those changes can be very upsetting to some, and SoE has not always handled such changes well (although admittedly not as bad as LL seems to). SL has its strong element of user creation and likely lot more RL $ invested up in it by users. EQ has been around a few years longer though, so the time invested in EQ is likely greater. In my RL occupation I have a good understanding of business side aspects, and especially some insight into the issues entrepreneurs face as well as the attitudes many of them develop. I *can* grasp why so many are upset by this. That does not mean I completely agree with them or that they are right. I have heard varients on most of the arguements presented here in situations that have nothing to do with child protection and usually boil down to 'this is going to cost us money or restrict us so it must be wrong.' Even though the opinion as to the effects is true it does not change the laws nor their intent. Also I am a quick study. I do know and understand the consentual aspects but have even seen that go badly since consent is not always as easy to work out as it sounds on paper. Those who are not hurt usually do not understand why the other party is hurt either. From: someone why are you here on this forum? Initially because I am interested in spending more time in world, but am not sure how much I interested in committing to it, but as far as this thread specificly, because it contains issues important to me. From: someone You are a complete outsider, I can only assume that you are a LL subcontractor of some sort and you thought you have a little dabble in here. You don't understand the culture/mindset of sl nor any online site I wager.
It probably explains why you're getting such a bad reaction. Your frame of reference is so different to these people that of course you get their backs up. Like a buzzing mosquito they see you as someone who is not really adding value to this at all, except in a spurious theoretical discussion way that has to be detached from anything to do with SL because you haven't enough knowledge to tailor your arguments to the situation in hand. It may be that I am tilting at windmills. It would not be the first time I have been accused of such. That said, different perspectives are not always a bad thing and some of the responses and the tone of many of the posts generally have suggested that many of those of you who have been here longer may have too narrow a perspective. It is telling that you imply that the only reason I could disagee with you as an outsider is if I am a subcontrator and thus have a conflict of interest, yet the fact that you do not consider the fact that your opinions may be not be objective but focused on what your potential individual losses. Objective does not mean ignoring those potential losses.. they are definately relevant to the discussion. That does not mean that they should be all important though.
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Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
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04-12-2009 11:50
From: Argent Stonecutter Look at my profile here and in SL and tell me what I'm exposing that I should be worried about. Potentially, your real-life first name, age, gender, marital status, and general location?  That, coupled with an email address and $5, potentially everything else, too. >.>
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Alexander Harbrough
Registered User
Join date: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 601
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04-12-2009 11:57
From: Argent Stonecutter If the law you're talking about is held to apply to virtual worlds, then this move will provide no protection whatsoever. This has been pointed out many times, and you have made no attempt whatsoever to respond to this point... instead you brush it aside as if it wasn't the most important part of your position after all. My apologies. I am certain I have said this a few times but will repeat it. If the law is upheld, formal age verification via confirmation of ID will be neccessary. PIOF will probably not be considered sufficient. Under those conditions, the move aspect would have to involve a lot more content, and would likely require the unrestricted world to be PG. I have also said that age verification for all accounts would get around that without needing anyone to move. As I have said all that before, I am not sure how I have 'brushed it aside.'
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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04-12-2009 12:04
From: Alexander Harbrough My apologies. I am certain I have said this a few times but will repeat it. If the law is upheld, formal age verification via confirmation of ID will be neccessary. PIOF will probably not be considered sufficient. Under those conditions, the move aspect would have to involve a lot more content, and would likely require the unrestricted world to be PG. You haven't demonstrated: 1. How it applies to Second Life, since there are no actors involved. 2. That even the Aristotle age verification system will provide ANY protection, because it doesn't meet the requirements for Linden Labs to keep the proof of age on file indefinitely. From: someone As I have said all that before, I am not sure how I have 'brushed it aside.' You just "brushed it aside" again. You have been repeatedly challenged on both of these points, and your response has been more argumentum ad nauseum (repeating the point being challenged as proof of that point, until everyone's sick of it).
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Alexander Harbrough
Registered User
Join date: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 601
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04-12-2009 12:04
From: Argent Stonecutter Look at my profile here and in SL and tell me what I'm exposing that I should be worried about. Not sure about your profile in SL, but what is there in your profile in here that was really that important to you to add? Are you not considered a 'real person' in SL unless you put in a pseudo occupation or signature? Mine has no signature, but has a birthday... how is mine more or less blank than yours?
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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04-12-2009 12:05
From: Talarus Luan Potentially, your real-life first name, age, gender, marital status, and general location?  I have none of those in my profile.
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