Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Answers to Questions

I don't care what a maybe 10- or 20-nose self-declared hobby world-police gang and a bunch of self-declared amateur art-censors judging over people from maybe hundred nations and societies - ca. 1 million unique people I think, (except the bots), - and what these few LL-peeps are thinking, talking and silencing or not, has lost any sense for me, along the debate. For my understanding of their behavior is their hybris not acceptable, meaningless and without any plus.

I mean, imagine that: some noses sitting there with their famous brownbags knittering around and playing private police, censors and gods - legislative, judicative and executive in one, about: artificial illusions, made by geometric fake"objects" (prims) and pixel-art...

because all what we create and act is: art.

Nothing is real or whatever. A sideview away from the screen tells the truth.

It is theatre.

Made by 18+ people.

That we, including me, as adults per defintion and per all our rl-constitutions per country, discussing such a LL - hysteria, is sad enough. Normally we should ignore the whole theme, or laughing about it all day long, and in front of all: not moving, not changing our way to be artificial figurative represented in game and not listening to them when they are going mad.

What they like to see in our creations and actings is not interesting for me.

It is our world and our imagination. Their job is only to provide working HDs, some RAM, some software, code and a connection.

They may see "sex and violence" with their fantasies - I see there only an art-installation and an art happening, or just: colors - RGB or hexadecimal.

So, this is a ghost debate they started. Complete irrelevant for people with a brain.

And who is not 18+ has no need to enter the platform and who is 18+ and enters the platform, has no need to critisize what people are creating with the given tools for wich they pay hard money.

With the pay is our obligation done. From that on is every pixel wich we create artwork and every action we let the avas take there, too.

Ghettoizing art is totalitarism.

And I do not react on totalitarism.

Means:I see it, i critisize it, but I do not follow totalitarism.

Point.

hey all, if anybody is posting transcripts of in world meetings or has the link to just the linden answers IM me please and I'll update post 2 in this thread. Just include the post link please... After almost 3 weeks of following these threads I'm to the point where I just can't seem to keep up as well. So I might otherwise miss vital info.

Thanks {{Huggles}}

pho

I am doing a lot for improvementing of Second Life and did a lot of work for SL in last almost 3 years (i.e. created first complete translation of SL viewer to the Czech language in April 2007 or did first generaly usable SAPI voice interface for Second Life yet in November 2006).

I would like to help SL users one more time by proposing solution, solving a lot of complex problems in SL, when we are discussing changes in the viewer and things which might open source volunteers help to solve.

THERE ARE NOW 3 BIG AND VERY IMPORTANT PROBLEMS IN SL, which might be solved all by ONE CHEAP AND SIMPLE SOLUTION:

GRAPHICAL and NETWORK TRAFIC LAG
ADULT CONTENT UNWANTED AVAILABILITY TO MINORS (and unnecesary moving of it to new regions),
PRIVACY OF INTIMATE AND OTHER ACTIVITIES IN SL AND PRIVACY OF THE USERS AS SUCH
(and a lot of other things like unability to build more flats over one parcel with separate media channels, etc)

AND HERE IS THE SOLUTION!

THIS PROBLEMS CAN BE ALL SOLVED BY ONE LITTLE, LOGICAL AND CHEAP CHANGE IN THE VIEWER!.

DEFINING OF THE "FROM THE OUTSIDE BLIND BOXES" - INVISIBLE CUBES DEFINING PRIVATE AREAS INSIDE BUILDINGS, SKYBOXES AND DOMES, WHERE IT IS NOT POSIBLE TO SEE FROM THE OUTSIDE, IF YOU ARE NOT INSIDE OF THEM!

(THIS IS A GREAT SOLUTION COMING JUST FROM REAL LIFE - CAUSE IN REAL LIFE WE CAN'T SEE OR HEAR THROUGH THE WALLS OF THE BUILDING OR TO OUR NEIGHBOURS HOMES AND BEDS AS WELL! )

I believe (and a lot of people who understands the problematics agree) better and much cheaper solution then moving adult content to some new regions, might be posibility to define a space (kind of "blindbox" from the outside) in the buildings or covering shields (i.e. opaque domes over the ADULT city parts or sex gardens) or other constructions, where it is not posible to see or hear voice from the outside, even when you will place camera inside the building or covered area. Only avatars in the building would then see and hear what is going on in the private house or club and only adult users would have access to the buildings marked as adult. This might be solved by open source comunity efforts aimed on changes in the Second Life viewer code.

It might lower the lag problems a lot as well by a kind of culling like solution, when you can't see inside of some kind of buildings when you are not inside, so it is not needed to render it to user and graphics and network traffic will go much more smooth. So what you do you think? Might it be a good solution for a lot of problems?

I saw some articles proposing almost the same. And I am even sure this occured to Linden Lab programmers too and they are thinking about this posibility from time to time. There are thousands of all kinds of JIRA suggestions of course, but this problem described in the post is now VERY ACTUAL because of restrictions which are upcoming for adult content to milions of users.

Maybe Linden Lab will now notice this solution for adult content better then at JIRA, where similar propositions are little lost in the amount of all the others (and so it's good this is Philip Linden's blog and not too much posts so far). Sometimes it is not important what do you propose, but where and when. JIRA is much like a museum from Indiana Jones, where all that great things are in crates and nobody ever will come to them and use them. And so millions of user will be affected by adult content new restrictions and we will even still not have privacy in our houses. Very sad.

WE KNOW THAT IT IS NOT FAULT OF LINDEN LAB, BUT A REQUEST OF THE NATIONAL GOVERMENTS (so called big brother ), BUT THEIR REQUEST CAN BE SOLVED IN BETTER WAY!

Getting in depresion from it, frankly said, cause I know that again the solution which is easy to pack to the email and to send to users just in the form of direction: "Move all that millions of your beds to sex islands, cause you are outlawed now - sex is pervert and this world is closing now for adults - sex is not permitted anymore here! Is it something perverse and does not fit in human life even in virtual world? " Reminds me of totality, Orwel's 1984 and similar things.

WHY IS AVAILABILITY OF PRIVACY PROVIDING PRIMS BASED TECHNOLOGY IN SL SO IMPORTANT?

WE DON'T NEED TO PUT INTIMACY OUTLAW AND TO MAKE SOME DETENTION CAMPS FOR ORDINARY PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ME!

Are we all intimate and sexualy active people (80% of Earth population ?) some kind of perverts?

It does not matter if in the privacy of our RL homes or in the virtual world - sexuality is normal thing and nobody of us would be born to tell it, if our ancestors would be pretending it does not exists and would be putting intimate people to some kind of detention camps instead of to let them have sex in their privacy at home.

ONLY THING WHAT WE ARE MISSING IN SL IS THE SAME PRIVACY LIKE WE HAVE IN OUR RL HOMES!

Are we sex streets of the RL cities, when we want to have intimate or private moments with somebody? Well - some of people do in real - that realy pervert one's No - frankly said no. Why? Cause we have privacy in our houses in ordinary environment, just hidden from eyes of other people or children.We realy do not need to move our places to parts of the cities, where intimacy is permited, we just have posibility to get privacy at normal places except of that public ones. That is the normal way to protect our childern from exposition to pornography and too early or unwelcomed start of their sexual life, not by pretending that it is something outlawed, for what have to be created special parts of the world

Do we have to live in the world driven by restrictions and even forbidding intimacy and placing it to the edge of the virtual society, instead of using technological solutions to provide and protect one's privacy?

WILL WE HAVE EVERYTHING POSIBLE IN VIRTUAL WORLDS - THIS GREAT NEW DIMENSION OF HUMAN EXISTENCE BUT FREEDOM?

We can't do what does not bother the others and have technical meassures available for such a freedom? That's saaaaaaaaaaaad.....

Well - I spent on improving of Second Life and projects for it almost 3 years yet. It is 10% of my active life till now, if I will be counting from when I was 3 years old (and started to be doing meaningfull things). It means that I spent significant part of my life in SL, sometimes 16h daily - so improtant is SL to me - and so I think this world deserve right evolution without compromises.

I know this solution which I have thinked out independently and describbed here, but a lot of people proposed too at the other places yet before and that Linden Lab team have been thinking about it yet for sure too, can be hard work to provide. But I know in my heart that it is the right solution for this great world and its users.

I am keeping fingers crossed for the open source volunteers comunity and Linden Lab team and I wish Linden Lab managers to be able to do their decissions on the base of their consciousness and on what they know that is right, not what is the most easy.

Best regards

Jarek Dejavu (Jaroslav Penaska in RL) Czech republic, Prague

Did you miss my response to this one?

Basically, this can't be done in the viewer. You have to do it in the server, to keep the content from being downloaded to the viewer at all. Which would require the server to do a bunch of occlusion calculations. There's been a bundle of variations of this suggested over the years, and the ones the Lindens have given the most positive responses to have been ones that did this on a parcel basis... the "phantom zone" suggestion, for example. The best variant of this right now is Gigs Taggart's "Privacy Pocket": http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/svc-205

To be honest, I expected this to be the answer. However, for all but the most simplistic of builds (which will be the exception rather than the rule), this can mean an awful lot of work. The more imaginative or well established the venue, the more difficult it will be to relocate without some additional tools or backend assistance from LL.

Let's be frank about this - without LL directly helping the move, the policy is not about relocating adult venues, it is about forcing them to be completely rebuilt and recreated. The more effort that has gone into the original build, the more effort it will take to rebuild it and some will just decide the effort is not worth the bother. Perversely this policy punishes the more creative and imaginative by forcing them to destroy their creations and rebuild them, whilst rewarding those whose creations a little more than a box with some adult textures!

Matthew

Through a Series of Odd fate twist I am now a manager of a Role Play Sim. We role play that it is the 1860’s western US. Regularly players Shoot and Kill or Capture each other. Taken at face value this is Murder and Violence beyond Imagination. When you first arrive you get a set of rules. Now… I can not force you to read them but I can ban you if you do not follow the rules. Why is this not enough for all adult content?

I know that several new people will find the sim they will read the rules and make good players. I also know that some will not. They will come to the floor of the sim in neon colored pulsing clothing. If they stay I will have to ask them to read the rules … if they will not behave I send them away. Why is this not enough for all adult content?

To stay on a sim you need to want to stay… the manager can’t force you to stay on. So if you see some one draw a rifle or a piece of anatomy you don’t like log off, Press CTRL-Shift-H, go elsewhere delete the land mark. This is not rocket science… you claimed to be an adult when you signed up for the adult grid… Why is this not enough for all adult content?

I HAVE TO Oppose any censorship because what group is next on the Offensive list. Any censorship is offensive. And yes grouping all the Adult content in a corner is censorship. If you don’t believe it is ask some one what a work camp was. They gathered all the undesirables together under the guise of forced labor and put them to work.

I am listening to the 3/27 - Adult content merchant brownbag and I am even more confussed than I was before, I think the main problem is your trying to divide a group that does not need dividing, ADULT and Mature are the same thing, if you must seperate, then seperate PG from MATURE period. I firmly disagree that a themed area that provides sex is any different from anyone that is having sex in their private home. Your going to segregate a group of people and though you say you have no intentions of driving anyone out of buisness, by placing them all in one area you essential ARE doing just that you can not place competition directly together and expect anyone to survive. When people are spread out and seperate it makes it easier to maintain your group of people that frequent your establishment. As proven in real life when a Wal-Mart, Target, and K-Mart are all on the same block, it turns into a price gouging war and the one that is the lowest wins, the others are driven out. The thing that any of us have going for us in Mainland is that there is a large seperation, when I picked my land in mainland and paid for it, I chose it for it's location, there was NO other one near buy it. Now you want us all to move in one location. Would not the option to just flag the land we are currently on, like it is NOW, without making everyone move be easier???

The key words are soo vague that what you will allow and what you will not allow, the confusion is growing even more. It is ok to say I have a sex bed for sell, which I do, but it is not ok to say we provide sex beds in our club for others to use, which we do. How much sense does that make??? ABSOLUTELY NONE... It is ok to have sex in your private home, but it is not ok to have sex in a club, yet sex is sex...

We are all now reduced to trying to justify what we are doing and how we have done it and trying to protect what we have invested so much time money and effort into , but yet this is not to exclude us. I am soo turned around and twisted. Basing what will be allowed and not by A/R which allows anyone that does not like something to go on witch hunts.

We need answers here again will my club/mall be located next to another one as it is NOT now, can I please get an answer????

It's so difficult to have a "discussion" with a blank wall, in a room where the other party only pokes their head in once in a while, says a couple quick things, and runs away again... *sigh*

A list should be made of specific acts that are "Extreme", such as snuff porn (killing one of the participants for sexual titilation), mutilation of damage to an individual, the appearance of non-consentual rape, etc., that will be forced to move.

So... Presuming that ANYONE at LL is actually bothering to read this...

I really think we should be able to take Jack Linden at his word, and that this should ONLY apply to the most extreme, violent or marginal forms of adult content. Or to businesses and venues whose *central purpose* is public sex.

In the following descriptions, "in private" means within an enclosed space, OR within an access-controlled area that is not visible from outside the access controlled area. For example, at many nude beaches, you are not allowed to disrobe in the public parking lot, visible from the street. You have to climd down the steep stairway and wak around the big hill to an area that can't be seen from any publicly accessible spot. Likewise, an outdoor location in a whole-sim area, where access is controlled to invited or voluntary participants, or an outdoor area that can't be seen or heard from neighboring parcels where you may have people that are NOT part of your voluntary participants, should still be considered "in private". IE: You have made a reasonable effort not to be "in your face" to the neighbors.

My thoughts for what should be OK on mature land, and what should move...

Strip clubs? No sex there, just titilation. Not forced to flag or move.

Nude beaches, furies running around with no clothes on? (No one is "sexually aroused" in public, just not wearing clothes.) No sex there. Not forced to flag or move.

Dance clubs that want to have an occasional "Naked night"? No sex there. Not forced to flag or move.

Individuals using "typical" sexbeds, pose balls or other sex toys on their land, avalable to their household and invited guests, in a place that is not advertised as a public place to seek sex in public? This would include any venue that restricts access to a limited list of individuals or to members of one or more closed groups, and which does not solicit new members from the general populace, except where one member is inviting a guest to visit them. Essentially this is a residence or a members-only area, and not being run as a business. Not forced to flag or move.

Clubs with Escorts who meet clients at the club, and take them off-site or go back to the client's property to "perform their services"? Not forced to flag or move. The sex isn't in public or on this property, it's in someone's home or some escort's private skybox.

Capture roleplay, where everyone is voluntarily entering a controlled-access maze or capture zone, and where once a "capture" is made, any scenes of rape or sex are taken off-site to private areas? Not forced to flag or move. No sex is taking place on the property.

ANY *consentual* sex act, causing no "damage" to any participant, performed in private and not as part of a public venue? Yes, that may well include things that many people find objectionable, like interspecies sex or interracial sex or bondage or spankings or "pony play" or even rape, etc... . Not forced to flag or move.

"Cartoon violence", where the "combat" is no more realistic than a paintball game, with no gory effects, combat is limited to a specific arena or combat area, and participants are in some way marked as "valid targets" with no possibility of causing "damage" to innocent and unwilling bystanders? Not forced to flag or move.

"Violent roleplay" that is strictly limited to a controlled area, accessible only by willing participants? Not forced to flag or move.

Merchants selling "adult items" which are not, in themselves or in their operation, graphicly or explicitly sexual, such as sexy dresses, silks, collars, cuffs, or the like? Not forced to flag or move.

Merchants selling "adult items" which are not, in themselves graphicly or explicitly sexual, but in their operation ARE graphicly or explicitly sexual, such sex beds and other sex toys that do XXX two-or-more person animations, but which can NOT be "demonstrated" in the store because the "Display models" are altered to only allow you to see the menus, but not allow you to "use" the product, or the like? Or because there are no operating uints on display at all? Not forced to flag or move.

Sellers of weapons that can NOT cause "real" damage if in a damage-enabled area, and which do not use or include graphicly gory special efects? Not forced to flag or move.

===

Publicly-accessible venues that have on-site pose balls and rooms specificly for public sex, either open to anyone and everyone who wants to use them, or for use with paid escorts? Force that to move.

Either combat or sexually related material in an uncontrolled access area, that directly involves unwilling participants, such as a live-fire combat area where ANY person entering the uncontrolled area is considered a valid target, or a "rape room" with uncontrolled access where anyone in the area is considered a valid victim? Force that to move.

Merchants selling "adult items" which are, in themselves or in their operation, graphicly or explicitly sexual, such as genitalia, sex toys that do XXX two-or-more person animations, and which can be "demonstrated" in the store, or the like? Force that to move.

Merchants selling explicit XXX Hardcore images, video, or other content? Force that to move.

Sellers of weapons that cause "real" damage if in a damage-enabled area, or which cause graphicly gory special efects? Force that to move.

Places whose central purpose is public sex, or hooking up with an Escort to have sex on the property, open to anyone who comes by or who pays for services? Force that to move.

Places where it is "acceptable" to run around in a clearly "sexually aroused" state in public? Got your adult genitalia waving in the breeze for all to see? Force that to move.

Placs that are publicly accessible and allow the simulation of *non-consentual* sex acts, such as "Rape rooms"? Force that to move.

Vore or Canabalism? Force that to move.

I think if I had an extreme adult business, I would move it up in the air, tweak my ads a little, and open a shop on the ground giving away free teddy bears, stop animation roses, and apples for teachers. I would stay off these forums, no matter what.

My guess is that the Lindens would bust me in about 2013.

To be fair, phillip's words were quite a bit stronger than that. His statement was more along the lines of "We *will* merge the grids someday, take it to the bank. But we don't have any definite plans at the moment"

that's a bit different that "we want to". that there isn't a merger of the grid in the offing *tomorrow*, I have no doubt. but I*also* have no doubt that there *will* be a merger just as soon as the non-teen content is packed away where the kiddies can't see it.

-V-

I think implementing this policy will keep the Lindens busy until 2013.

Firstly there will be the extra working involved in being called out to locations by conscientious owners worried whether their venue counts as adult or mature because the venue is in the grey area between the two.

Then the extra work involved in visiting places ARed by someone who thinks the venue should be adult (typically based on personal prejudices rather than anything in whatever guidelines LL finally decides upon for adult content)

Then there's the work dealing with the situations where an owner having been told by one Linden that their venue is mature, is then as a result of an AR subsequently told by another Linden that the venue needs to move to the adult land.

Add in the extra work involved in dealing "on a case by case basis" (to quote Blondin) with those who wish to have land on the new continent which resembles in some way (e.g. terrain, location, surrounding features, neighbours etc...) their existing land.

Has LL done any analysis or modelling of the extra work needed to implement the move, and determined where the additional resources to make this work are going to come from?

Matthew

/me volunteers to take the horrible job of becoming Naughty Linden and to champion the Adult Continent! (Does that mean my stipend will go up a couple of L$?)

*runs off giggling*

Oh, Now you're being picky. What is the difference between "merging the grids" and "Letting any age group into some parts of the the main grid"?

Because I really don't see one dime's worth of difference.

"We're *NOT* merging the grids! we're elliminating the teen grid and letting the teens into the main grid, but we're *not* merging the grids! Besides, we don't have a timeline or specific plans to show you, so it's not happening! Unlike the segregation of adult content, where we don't have a timeline, or specific plans to show you."

Or even a definition of "adult"


I'm not *that* big an idiot.

-V-

Hey, there's a thought If they go through with letting the kiddies in, we can all form a parent's group and lobby to have SL labled "unsafe for children"

-V-

Actually bambi, i'm pretty sure that all the dancing around what terms to use is so LL doesn't offend *US* any more than they already have, by telling us that we all have to get transported so that aunt mabel can come to visit.

Frankly, calling it what it is- Sexual and violent content, is probably the best and most adult way to say it, but LL is trying to pretty it up a bit so that we all won't get any more pissed off than we already are.

-V-

This whole thing is disgusting, in this day, in this country, anywhere...it is intolerance, something I've always believed that SL and LL stood against.

My creativity has dropped to almost zero over this whole debacle.

Business plans I had for my little shops on the mainland...gone... all the planning useless now as I sit back and wait for the segregation to begin.

I am tier'ing down as soon as I can sell my almost worthless mainland parcels and downgrading my alt accounts that are premium because of this.

I will still be here because of someone I love very deeply and the friends I have made over the years, but LL will not be making as much money from me.

I am actively helping with alternate grids now, with hope that they will someday be what SL was and still could be.

SL used to mean freedom from the oppression of an overly Politically Correct society I have to deal with in my real life, it no longer does.

There are so many better ways this could have been handled, implemented and executed, you failed LL, you failed my trust in you and failed at a basic human level of fairness and tolerance.

there's several major problems with your mandatory id verification. One its illegal on so many levels, two it is misleading to say our information will be kept secure when the third party you use states on their site that they reserve the right to sell any information they get and have done so repeatedly once resulting in the deaths of two police officers.

Second, many people in law enforcement including myself signed contracts that state we cannot give out such information on account of the risks it involves. many entertainment industry people and government workers and politicians likewise have similar contracts.
under these contracts if i give out my information to jsut any old group like aristotle or LL I CAN AND WILL lose my job and go to prison.

And ll suspending one of my accounts and one of my friends for not identity verifying them is purely extortion in the very real legal definition of the word.

I don't want to move my store that has some sex toys, an adult movie vender, and some racy clothing in it. I don't want to have to break the law i'm sworn to uphold just to keep my accounts. I don't wnat to be ghettoized and censored to please a few that would be better and more cheaply served by setting up a clone of the teen grid.

I go back to transilvania if they let the small terrorists in.

And what could kids do here? Building sandcastles at the beaches? Hunting butterflies pulling the wings from them and...eating them...?

Yelling for mummy if they're stumbling over a wood-box...?

Rezzing the whole edit-building-tools window empty until a sim is full of primitives up to 4096 meters height and then crying: "mummy, I can't see the sky" "All is full of boxes" waaaaaahwahwahwahwahhhhh?

My goodness...

If I would have to chose between garlic and kids - I take garlic!

If LL thinks that the mainland is a whole mess, then they will see what the mainland will be, when kids are at sabotage-work there...

It would look like it looks at Blondins rl-home under the couch...

Again, this is why I think having adults-only AND pg-only continents would be a smart idea. If nothing else, it preps for the merging of the grids, even if that takes a while to happen.

And, again, this is one of the reasons I don't think LL is being very honest about their goals here. It seems like a no-brainer that they would create 2 new continents, if their goal was actually to provide more choice on what people want to see...

If they really want to help people have a predictable experience and provide more choice then yes, it is a no brainer that they would create two new continents.

PHILIP ROSEDALE: Generally, I think that the future of Second Life needs to be one where people of all ages can use Second Life together, and that’s the direction that we’re taking in our planning and our work. I think that the educational opportunities for Second Life are so great for all ages that we need to make it as available as we possibly can to people. If you look at what we’ve done with the Teen Grid, I think we’ve done a good job, as a small company, of being inclusive and creating an environment in which teenagers were able to use Second Life, I think, perhaps earlier than, I don’t know, we might have been able to. We pushed hard to get that working.

But, if you look at the problems with having a teenaged area, which is itself so isolated from the rest of the World, they’re substantial. There’s an inability for educators to easily interact with people in there because we’ve made it an exclusively teen only area. Parents can’t join their kids in Second Life so problems like that are ones that we think are pretty fundamental and need to be fixed. We need to stop creating isolated areas that are age specific and, instead, look at how we can make the overall experience appropriately safe and controlled for everybody. So that’s the general direction that we’re taking there.

its not an if, its a when.
get out while there is still time and for petes sake dont buy any land.

Same here.

I stopped all creative activities and projects and I will cash out, my L$'s. Premium avas I let, until they are drop to basic by themselfs.

Occasionaly I am inworld to see some of the friends from around the globe. No more transactions.

Thrill is gone, I wrote some pages before, because: freedom is gone.

I am in no scene bounded or very active - but I defend freedom. If freedom is under attac, or overtaken, then I lose my ambitions or creativity. This is the case.

What I'm concerned about is age verification. I dislike giving personal information. And many stories about people in SL that went to court scare me moreso to not willingly give it - not that I've done anything to go to court over. I'm far over the line of qualifying age-wise (leave it at that).

I simply haven't any SIMs that I dabble in that aren't mature. From roleplaying to clubs to sexual areas. To slap age-verification onto all these SIMs would remove me from everything. So the line of what counts is a major issue to me as well.

If this were to move/remove guns, or violence, and/or sex in general then it would heavily disrupt many communities. Notecards have been passed around about this issue a little and so far everyone I know of is strongly against it, yet sadly not as vocal as the people that apparently are for it.

Ursula may be a fitting name for this new continent.

take your pick of meanings from the Google items below:

1) Ursula is an animated villainous who first appears in the 1989 Disney animated feature film, The Little Mermaid

2) Ursula Andress (born March 19, 1936) is a Golden Globe award-winning Swiss actress and a major sex symbol of the 1960s.

3) Books by Ursula K Le Guin
The Dispossessed: A Novel - 2003
The Left Hand of Darkness - 1976
The Lathe of Heaven - 1971 ( a must read for LL ) [ TY Deltango ]

4) Saint Ursula ("small female bear" in Latin) is a British Christian saint. Her feast day in the Roman Catholic Church is October 21. Because of the lack of sure information about the anonymous group of holy virgins who on some uncertain date were killed at Cologne, their commemoration was omitted from the Roman Catholic calendar of saints for universal liturgical celebration, when this was revised in 1969, but they have been kept in the Roman Martyrology, the official, though incomplete, list of saints of the Roman Catholic Church.

Her legend, probably unhistorical, is that she was a Romano-British princess who, at the request of her father King Donaut of Dumnonia in south-west England, set sail to join her future husband, the pagan Governor Conan Meriadoc of Armorica (Brittany), along with 11,000 virginal handmaidens. However, a miraculous storm brought them over the sea in a single day to a Gaulish port, where Ursula declared that before her marriage she would undertake a pan-European pilgrimage. She headed for Rome, with her followers, and persuaded the Pope, Cyriacus (unknown in the pontifical records), and Sulpicius, Bishop of Ravenna, to join them. After setting out for Cologne, which was being besieged by Huns, all the virgins were beheaded in a dreadful massacre. The Huns' leader shot Ursula dead, supposedly in 383 (the date varies).

so, all 11,000 virgins were beheaded in a dreadful massacre, and Ursula shot dead!!

Shades of that which is to come.

The problem with your argument Valerius, is that you are putting things in quotes that were never actually said by Philip Rosedale.