Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Answers to Questions

I totally agree, especially with the last paragraph. I think though at the end of the day all this cursing LL and wailing and gnashing of teeth won't solve a thing as it is a done deal. We are going to see where this leads us as an adult business and if it ends up that SL is no longer viable for us then we will scale down, accept any loses and move on with RL which is far more important imho and no one is forcing me to stay here or pay LL each month its my choice until i decide otherwise

Exactly right, no one is forcing me to stay here either. When you people become more than passively concerned about the bugs in this program, the constant lag issues etc.. etc.. ad nauseum, then I'll be a bit more accepting of the new nanny state you wish to bring to your world.

Once this goes into effect I can promise you LL won't get another dime of my money. I can also promise you the same from 30 other of your current users.

There's better ways of doing this, but LL has made it's decisions based on sheer lunacy.

Have fun with it.

Lindens: Have you ever heard of the Americans with Disabilities Act (seeing as you are based in the US, I am guessing your legal team has)? Why in the world would you conduct an important meeting that flies in the face of it by being voice-only when a reasonable accomodation of using text (which is easier anyway) is obvious? Even if you do not meet the legal requirements for doing such, it is *very* bad PR.

I've always said, if you fear god what are you doing wrong. : )

Do like Bugs Bunny does and pull down the shades. If you can't see it, it won't hit you.

This. SLU uses the same software, but the admin keeps it updated and adds features regularly, by himself. It's amazing that 1 person can do something that a multi million dollar company can't seem to do.

Thank you. Downloading them now.

Linden Lab must comply with national and international law and protect itself from litigation. Yes.

I do not know to what degree Second Life is subject to external laws concerning 'gambling', 'banking' and sexual behavior (SL is a virtual world, not a municipality in Wyoming). I believe (perhaps wrongly) that LL chose not to investigate legal options but instead simply capitulated out of fear, laziness or moral acquiescence.

Excluding external legal forces, Linden Lab can choose to either 'govern' the behavior of residents (top-down) or allow the community to be self-governing (bottom-up). If one accepts that Linden Lab should 'govern', then one cannot cherry-pick the rules. If one approves of LL's restrictions on advertising and land division/pricing then one must equally accept 'adult' definitions and forced geographical relocation based on those definitions.

Alternatively, if one believes that Linden Lab should maintain a hand-off philosophy, then one must accept (at least in theory) sexual age-play, gambling, ponzi schemes, unregulated advertising, high-priced 16m2 squares and neighboring BDSM clubs or evangelical churches. One cannot cheer a ban on banks then turn around and bemoan a forced move to Ursula.

(For those who have not read my previous posts, please do so before commenting. There is a lot of background in them that I don't want to repeat here.)

I don't think you are wrong. They have shown, in my time here at least, to always take the path that is easiest for them while putting the biggest burden on the residents. running a World is a difficult job. People are difficult to manage. That's why LL's dream of SL being some sort of Metaverse (tm) will never come. They can't handle it. They make the UN look like an effective governing body.

All perfect - but I would think, the guest status is on both sides. Their hard drives running in circles for us, our hard drives running in circles for them. Guest friendly as we are, we made them popular, we invited other guests for them and for us, we act as multiplicators of the idea, we filled their empty rooms with interesting developments and we feed them well with golden spoons filled with dollar soup to make their bellys happy and round so they have every month a nice satisfied belch. They are, so to speak, guests in everyones home and we cook them every day a five star valuta menu, made of yen, pound, euro, dollar, kuna, krona, yuan, rubel, australian and canadian dollar, or whatever exotic spice. They are relaxing on best equipment - our Dells, Fujitsus, Acers and thousand other nice high-tech systems, and the best of us, and we are all the best, right?, hehehehe, designed their guest-gift, wich was an empty desert, into something wonderful.

On a biz-base we are also not only guests - we are kind of franchisers and shareholders, each single individual - and on the human side, we made an extra-successful culture politic on their carbon-dusty hard drives. Not only a few of us are helping them additional to develope that thing to the top and they have filled bellys, comfy cars, nice homes, and they are well dressed through our income wich we share with them, so it became their income.

It is and it should be a relation with - and so it is called here in austria and on much places of the globe - *handshake quality*. Wich means fair tradesmenship and some etiquette. They own the hardware, that we can exist. We own the hardware, that they can exist. Wich is in result a situation, that we are on the same level with them, otherwise SL would die and within that they would need a new job, or a living under the bridge.

I would say: we are not too small and they are not too big, just to throw a light on the dimensions. At the moment they are giving a picture wich can be described as this: when the sun stands deep, even a dwarf can make a big shadow..., but at noon they are not as big as they think they would be...

In best case it is a handshake between equal people, with equal interests and the actual problem is, that the other side offers only empty hands...with an attitude to kick us out of our homes and kognitive properties plus out of our 18+ status, wich makes *them*not to the very best guests I ever had. I had so far better ones...

But beside this I agree,as ever with 99,99% of your posts and you made a nice brown bag job

5 clap

There you go again, mixing up situations where they had to act with this one where there's no indication from Linden Labs that it is anything but voluntary.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my previous message. Rattling on about situations where they screwed up (OpenSpaces) or they were forced to act (gambling, banking) as if they were closely related to the subject of this thread is just muddying the waters and reducing the effectiveness of your message.
1. Pointing out that they had to act, so there is a difference in the two situations, is not "cheering it on".

2. Yes you can, BECAUSE there is a difference.

I agree with your post, i am just being maybe to simplistic in how i say it I understand that all of us have some form of vested interest in SL, whether it is running a business or just here for friends and to socialize with others.

LL has so much to thank the customers for, for building and developing this playground we all so love in so many different ways and because of that, we all to some degree feel that we have a vested interest in SL and LL because "We have built the landscape and shaped the game for them"

I remember when i first started back in SL in 2005 when a busy Saturday night was 2500/3000 people online prior to that it was a lot less , when you could speak to a Linden and more often than not you needed help and they appeared, i remember a land problem i had and i had Cyn and Char linden helping me out in person lol those days are long gone now.

To me LL has evolved and SL the baby is growing up and LL its parents now want to guide it the way they think is fit and we all have different views on parenting. Now i agree this could have been handled a lot differently for sure, but i really believe that most of the LL suits are totally out of touch with the realities and dynamics of this game and we are the realities and the dynamics of SL without us SL is just a whole bunch of Hard drives sitting in racks.

Maybe if LL had started out earlier (as it was said this was in the planning months ago) and started seeking customer input then, we would not see all venting of this anger as we see now, as we would have all been able to help shape the policies for the world as a whole, but as i said earlier LL suits are out of touch with the dynamics and realities of this game. There are a lot of very intelligent people here in SL with the skill sets that any company would be glad to have at its disposal and i bet you the majority of us would gladly devote time to help LL achieve its goals and aims without charge, because as SL survives and grows, so do we all.

Will it ever happen on a grand scale? I don't know, but i do hope that LL in this has seen that people are prepared to help shape its future, but cannot if we are unaware of these impending changes that come up on us. I would say that possibly 99% of the folks here want SL to grow and survive, it just needs LL to see that and take advantage of the brains here to help them with the future plans.

As far as secrecy with corporate planning and the customers well there are NDA's as the Enterprise customers have to sign them to get on the mailing list, I just hope that LL realizes at the end of this that we all want to help change the future of SL and for the better and maybe its a good idea to say well in advance when changes as big as this are going to happen and seek the help from those that love this crazy place first.

Just my thoughts and thanks for the kind comment

Well said, M'Lord. Someone in another thread talked about the fall of IBM and pointed to management being so out of touch with the reality of it's business, being stuck in the past.

LL isn't stuck in the past necessarily, they want to take SL forward, but they are out of touch with what SL is, where it's strength and growth potential is. And they are out of touch with their customers who put so much in SL to get it where it is. This is going to happen, they aren't going to change their minds, but they are not taking any consideration on how it will affect the customers. Most will grudgingly accept it but LL should be be bending over backwards to make sure it goes smoothly. Even better, they could have reached out and maybe brought in a group of residents from all walks, and discussed what they wanted to do, and sincerely elicited feedback on how to possibly proceed, even using NDA's to keep it quiet until a plan was devised.

The relationship between LL and it's customers is different from most, where the company provides the product and the customers use it. In SL the customers have a large hand in making the product, using what LL provides. There is no SL without the residents.

The word game is one that causes such uproar when used in reference to SL, but I think that is what LL needs to see it as, game meaning an entertainment and creative program that most will use as a hobby and for entertainment. They have to get off the idea of SL being a serious business tool or any sort of "Next Internet". Their delusions of grandeur will do them in.

A few different questions, only loosely related to this topic.

1. Are there plans in the works concerning PG land, and what activities will be allowed on that land? Right now, you can pretty much do whatever you want on PG land.

2. With PG and Mature sims randomly scattered all over the mainland, has there been any consideration to making a generally PG area, and a generally Mature area?

3. Considering that Linden Lab will be making some new technology/policy here, in that they are force-moving a category of people, have any plans been discussed to do this with other categories, for instance clubs or laggy stores?

VOLUNTEER: I feel really bad for the people that are going to have to move. I'm willing to donate a weekend to someone that will have to move and rebuild. If they took snapshots, I'm sure I could build something very close to what they had, which would free up time to move their items. If interested, please send a message.

Hi All

I just have a few thoughts on the whole adult content topic.

1. I hear talk of age checks for anyone wishing to visit the adult area of the main land. Why are these needed?. SL is an adult game and age checks are already done or are at least supposed to been done for anyone wishing to join SL. Kind of defeats the purpose of the tean grid/ adult grid.

2 How are these age checks to be done ?. There is alot of underage pepole with cridet card that have been set up by thire perants. Whats stoping them from using thier mums or dads details ? So if age checks are been carryed out by cridet card checks. dosnt always work.

3 Land and search already has adult content filter and event postings to. If you do not wish to see adult content, dont look for it. Or is SL going to become an SL police run vertual world.

4 How in the world is to be decided what is adult or even what is not. I have pictures of nude skins up for sale in my yardsale. Skins I made. The reason they are nude is to give the customer the abilty to see what they are buying. Male and female parts. Adult or nessary parts of an avatar?. Avaters do not come with them, so they have to be bought.
Also I may look at a nude picture and see art, soom other person may see porn.

5 Should I, as a paying customer (IE renting my plot of land of LindenLab ) not have the right to have on that land what I want. Who gives other in the game the right to tell me what I can and cant have on land I am paying for ?.


Anyways for now. just a few thoughts on this.

Kathryn Yer

Well, we saw banks in Madoff-style and Casinos in Mafia-style and vice versa. And there was serious law involved. In most countries only the government has a monopol on gambling, controls it strict and frequently and gives licenses and in some countries or states is gambling totaly forbidden. I. e. I can open easily a strip-club, a swinger club, a brothel, a porn cinema, an escort service, a nudist center, a porn-website, or an erotic museum, etc. in Vienna, but I cannot open a casino or a bank on the fly, because both needs some much more official control and security efforts to prevent manipulations. All other things are ok, as long I put a big 18+ sign on the entry and if the employees are 18+ too and working there consensual and not under pressure.

We have now serious verified exchange banks in. VirWox, Eldex and some more and some halfway harmless sploders with no obligation to pay in to participate (and maybe some left over Al Capones in 4000m height)

The actual problem has other dimensions. There they hit human essentials and they try to do specific socio-cultural-moral politics on 18+ people. This is a playground wich is a bit too big for them and they have no law and no democratic legitimation, nor obligation for that in background. So, these ambitions we can criticize with full right and we can act somehow to negotiate or to show resistance to represent our legitimate interests.

The banking and gambling thing was not to hold and no effort were good enough to manage that serious and risk-free for each and everyone on globe. Not for them, not for us. It was more or less a crime scene and a big ripp off and LL needed to act.

I think they remain the same as the rules stand now IIRC Marty touched on a couple of PG points but cannot recall what he said exactly. Hopefully the audio will be available soon.



It was said that if there was enough requests then a totally PG continent was not ruled out at a future date. Jack said that PG land on the continent wasn't going to be moved however if the changes allowed then maybe some changes could be made as to locations on the grid, but don't quote me but listen to the brown bag audio as i can't remember the exact wording



Now thats a really cool offer and what SL is to me, one big community, if i was a better builder i would offer help but my prims never align properly although i can rez a great Plywood cube

Ownership and permissions can be more of a problem there. There are plenty of people willing to help, but they can't.

Yes i was aware of that i was just commenting on a good community response

I've had a fair few conversations with people down the last month and it's becoming quite clear that there are quite common issues that are going to give a lot of people problems.

They range from not knowing how to take large unlinked builds to being homeless because the land they currently rent won't be going adult to people looking for others to share a sim with.

Is it worthwhile having a thread that people can post their logistical concerns to and we can try to find someone to help?

Some are almost insurmountable i.e objects owned by people who don't log on anymore (we won't talk copybot atm) but most of them should be able to be answered by someone.

If nothing else it might reduce some of the anxiety that people are facing on top of the anxiety about the policy itself.

At the moment I'm still debating whether to jump into the cattle truck or to close down and sell up.

If I do move then I have space to create some merchant spaces that could be let on a shortish (up to 6 months or until I need the prims) basis which gives people time to evaluate the fallout of the move. If I stay where I am I'm happy to let people temporarily put the equivalent of an ad board with LM givers as a bit of advertising. If I sell there's no benefit for anyone that I can think of atm..

but back to the idea of a thread. if we put all the offers and problems in one place would it will be easier to work out who can help who?

just my tuppence.

This is all true and since this thing is maybe one year in a pipe-line, and came now too suddenly and too lapidary from LL, I think one thing came also through all of our comments and questions and suggestions, even through all our anger our being disappointed: if I read *all* posts including my own wich were often very angry, I would say: if better and much earlier communicated, if a longer brainstorming process were started, if some reasonable ideas were early and open stated, then I think we would try to help them to create the different social biotopes - if really necessary - in a non-reactionary and a non repressive way and I mean - since we are humans, I bit with a twinker and a bit with humor I would expect Linden Lab to act too, instead of taking their ambition way too serious. Wich would mean to find compromises on a relative high level and not on the lowest level. So far - along 6 years SL - we thought they would be much more relaxed.

To integrate .com, .org, .edu folks - is even no problem. We integrated all lifestyles so far. The introverted and the extroverted. All has its place and space in here.

In case there would be a fear, to have "too much" eros involved, or if they maybe have the idea, that we have here an inflation of sexuality on the grid, then hmmm? they would need to hold in mind that the whole planet exists only because there is an inflation of sexuality in and as nature itself. No life without that and even no creativity without that. Thinking on fashion or architecture and even any design is somehow "sexy" - erotic is everyhwere and if it would be only a picture about how an individual like James Dean or Greta Garbo holds a cigarette in a specific way as self-design element and expression. (This said, while I watch two flies dancing under my living room lamp and I think I know what they have in mind...- to create some new flies, hahaha, wich then are hunted eaten by my cat...ha!)

Come on..

There is a big difference between nanny state dealings and tossing people who are committing fraud out on their ear.

That's like saying "caveat emptor" to patronizing a place where you can get robbed or murdered.

Not remotely the same thing.

I take your point, but I am not convinced that Linden Lab had to act on any of these issues. Judging from the interview with Mitch Kapor of 25 January 2008, my impression is that Linden Lab based its decisions regarding gambling and banking on internal policy rather than external forces. Maybe I am wrong.

(about 1/3 in)

Adam Pasick: The banking ban...were you involved in that decision?

Mitch Kapor: Let me talk about the gambling ban because that was the earlier incarnation. The Board was briefed on the situation, the staff and the company developed with the attorneys a view on what the issues were and it was presented to the Board and the Board made a decision. And so with big issues like that, the Board has to be involved in it and similarly we were aware of the issues with the banking and some time ago, despite what I think I read in the paper today - this just happened yesterday...

AP: The thing in the Wall Street Journal...

MK: Yeah I think it happened...

AP: A couple days ago, right...

MK: Or last week...

AP: The banking ban, yeah, a few weeks old...

MK: Well, it's not a ban, right, it just says...

AP: A ban on unregulated banking...

MK: Right, if you're going to be a Second Life bank, you have to have...you have to show that you're chartered by a terrestrial authority to do that.

AP: To be fair, though, all of the banks that were in Second Life, none of them could meet that requirement.

MK: No they couldn't and so they had to close down.

AP: Right.

Okay, maybe there were hard legal forces behind these decisions. I don't know. Perhaps only the Board knows, but Kapor does not appear to argue from a legal standpoint. Instead, his words and tone imply that the decisions were primarily internal.

--------

Presuming I am wrong, there is still a difference, in my opinion, between applauding capitulation to external forces on issues one likes and condemning similar 'governance' intervention on issues one doesn't like. While not wishing to split hairs, there is a huge difference between the following statements:

a) "Good thing those bastard banks were kicked out. Hey! You creeps have no right forcing me to move to Ursula!"

b) "No matter what the legal pressures, LL is right/wrong to kick out the banks and also force people to move to Ursula."

I'm not having a go at you personally, Argent, I am weary of people in general who are inconsistent in their praise/criticism of Linden Lab based on their own personal preferences. How may people in this forum condemn the new sexual definitions yet thump their chest and denounce sexual age-play? How may people want X, Y and Z banned who at the same time scream against P, Q and R being banned. If one is a libertarian, be a libertarian. If one is a conservative/socialist, be a conservative/socialist. It's mixing and matching based on whim and self-interest that drives me crazy.

My first seven months on SL, I was in a hospital bed and a wheelchair after, and made a ton of homes, shops, clubs, sims for people. It's easy enough to work around things as long as you, a) know what you are doing, b) limit your help to things that will not freak on the permission limitations of SL.

What a sound idea to get the advice in one thread