Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Main Forum Thread

Well, I wouldn't classify that as a strip club. Someone dancing in a cage at a club is different than a room full of people watching someone take their clothes off.

<voice=MrRogers>Can we say "Barrier to entry" children? I thought you could.</voice>

Nice try. These are YOUR definitions, fair enough. Nany may have a different set of definitions. In fact, there are probably as many possible sets of definitions as there are residents. Even if you were to get general agreement on a California set of definitions and the folks in Ohio manage to get general agreement on their definitions, there would still be as many sets of definitions as there are countries and cultures in the world.

People came to Second Life to get away from such labels and definitions in RL. Is it not obvious that this exercise in definitions is poisonous to Second Life?

But what about people who own/lease land on Estates, who get displaced by this.

As an extreme example, let's say the Dreamland Estate decides to go "All XXX" in all their 500 or so sims. There will be a lot of PG land owners who can no longer access the land they have been occupying, because they can't or won't adult verify. Dreamland is ONE estate. It's all or nothing, unless they submit a ticket to LL and pay fees to move some sims to a new Estate, even though the owner does not change.

Or worse yet, the 550 to 600-sim Fantasyland Estate decides to ban all "Adult" activities on their sims? Now at the very least, every strip club, brothel and adult content vendor in ALL those sims has to move, or go out of business. Again, if it is all one Estate, they may have to decide all-or-nothing.

Every large landholding I have ever visited, where a sim owner had a coordinated collection of more than a handful of slowly-accumilated individual sims, the "Estate" is a single entity for HUNDREDS of sims, so the entire block can easily be managed at once by the same Estate manager team and same ban lists, etc...

In actuality, most of the big landlords will more likely specify some sims as Adult, and some not, though they will have to incur a cash expense to get their Estate split into multiple Estates. This will still displace anyone in those re-designated sims that doesn't fit the new rating.

Will LL at least offer free re-designations of Estates, to help large landlords split off selected sims to a new XXX Estate or Estates?

Will LL help the parcel holders forced to move by these changes?

Or will you just ignore the far reaching impact of your mandated changes?

Ahhhhh! It's not real! It's a cartoon, it's a bunch of polygons organized in a mesh with a texture that is being put together by some fancy math on your graphics card!

Cinda rolls her eyes wondering if the whole world has become a bunch of gamers that can't tell reality from a video game.

Hold it "in trust" until the worst of the forced migrations and voluntary moves are over, then determine if there is anyone LEFT in that continent, or if it is so depopulated that maybe you can redesignate the whole continent now as all PG, All Mature, or all XXX Adult.

At the very least, do NOT allow the speculators and land-flippers to rape it.

It strikes me as odd that purveying prim genitals wouldn't be considered an Adult activity.

I really don't care one way or another, and granted, for male avatars, it's "correcting the anatomy" whether or not any sexual content is involved, but it's not as if these places are catering to the platonic: their purpose is about as sexual as it gets in Second Life, as far as I can figure.

Is the rationale that the (virtual) sexual *act* isn't performed as part of the business?

A consistent policy may be possible based on that criterion, but I'm hard-pressed to come up with a coherent motivation for that policy.

Horrible attempt at humor...

If public sodomy is "Adult" by all definitions, shouldn't LL and every single resident who will be negatively affected be sent off to Ursula?


On a more serious note:

Why isn't the existing TOS and definitions for PG and Mature enforced?

To everyone who has been offended by the things they'd like to see carted off to Ursula, was it against the TOS? Did you AR the offensive activity or object? Did you get a satisfactory response from LL resolving the issue?

If I have a private park on 512sm mature land, with BDSM Furniture and poseballs, banlines and a security device (all of this at ground level), Can I be AR'd? Why or why not?

what about when the club is near empty and one girl is dancing in a cage or on a pole and two guys are watching?
does the club have to take down all dance equipment when there isnt an event so as not to get ARed for being a strip club?

Does this include residents that rent land or not this answer is nothing but a repeat of your statement and avoids the question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWl_snUToM8

'It's hard enough to come up with a Mature / Adult Distinction!' Blondin Linden

Then why TRY? it's MUCH easier to classify PG so create a PG grid for the 'educators and commerce' you want to suck up to...

Can't help but wonder WHY this is being done at all...to suck up the USA media? to suck up to global media?..oh i guess suck is an adult activity......and of course the teen grid isn't being combined with the adults.....

No way will these organisations pump the time and dollars into SL that John and Jane Doe do...nor will they have the powerful computers...nor will they be bothered about their hair, clothes and make up! let alone building and furnishing their 'homes'.
Business has other easier ways of holding global conferences..

How can creators and sellers of genitalia not be classified as adult??? if the sex furniture places are? or will they be adult only if they also perform the bodily functions.....

Many a Brit will understand when i say 'you couldn't make it up'......

Well, for the record and for what it's worth, I'll continue to play ball and offer Linden Lab a definition - I'm happy with a definition of 'adult' (as it pertains to Second Life) as being:

'Content, communication, or behavior which involves intense language or expletives, nudity or sexual content, the depiction of sex or violence, or anything else broadly offensive.'


Although I've always chuckled at the term 'broadly offensive' and understand the argument against its use - as Second Life is Linden Lab's product, I do have to grant Linden Lab that as a type of 'god-switch', for individual situations (content, communication, or behavior) that require special, proportionate, moderator/admin intervention. Although, "the definition of 'broadly offensive' is frequently derided by civil libertarians as offensively broad." -- Wikipedia

So, yes, sorry if I firmly believe that the current definition is adequate - I see no distinction between adult and mature. Some of us live in cultures and communities where tolerance is highly valued and self control is respected. If you're in a 'mature' environment (and have the CHOICE to leave to go to, in this case, a PG environment), one should be deemed to have the right to use and create content, communicate and behave in an adult manner within that environment.

I believe we have the tools and guidelines already (although many of the technical issues within the Second Life client/server need to be fixed to make our experience more predictable) to express our freedom of choice in Second Life.

If by 'adult', you mean ONLY a) the adult entertainment industry, or b) the organised industry supporting violence and combat - then, well, I imagine that means relocating nearly everyone and their content eventually. How are you going to draw the line? IMHO, it's impossible.

The issue of public/private, IMHO, is an erroneous one, in this matter. Yes, you can start looking at the issue of advertising to differentiate - but really, all you are doing is starting down the road of prohibition.

The issue of 'shouldn't have to see it'? The don't look. There is mute, teleport, privacy prims, the option to move or the big X in the corner of your screen.

Mature = Adult. File...Exit.

Everyone will be biting the bullet a little on this one ... change is always that way. I think I'm in the vast minority here, in that I think this will be a short term pain, for a long term gain. I think the big long term winners will be adult merchandise vendors with quality goods and Linden Labs ... adult merchandise vendors with quality goods, because having all the weaker competition in close proximity will emphasize their quality, and Linden Labs, because I think a lot of people will get paid memberships in order to take advantage of the sex trade, and I think there will be a budding industry of private islands with strip clubs, etc ... on 16K meter lots. It will be harder to enforce the rules on private islands. There is a golden rule at work ... they give you their gold, and you allow them to bend the rules.

So, the question then becomes how to lessen the pain up front, and specific to your question, how to handle vacated land without doing long term damage to property values on the mainland.

1. It's as much about what you don't do ... as what you actually do.

1a. You can't flood the market, which means you can't allow the old land owners to sell it, nor can you sell it all in one shot yourself.

1b. You can't auction it ... that would be worse than 1a.

1c. You probably can't make it Linden land, because you probably would lose too much money doing it.

1d. You can allow the land cutters to get their hands on it.

2. Suggestions to the positive:

2a. Since you are offering new land, you would then become the defacto owner of the vacated land.

2b. Offer a phased approach to selling it, perhaps 10% to 20% per month, at exactly the current average market rate. This will still drive the market down, but not to the extent cheaper, or auctioned land would.

2c. Use this high drama event to make a serious statement about bettering the mainland ... keep a percentage of the land as yours, and get your department of public works people to make nice things on it ... the key point being to combine what will be a bad short term even, with something that will add something positive.

I have to say I am amazed at LL's cool and calm and nonchalance. If I came up with a policy that had my customers universally screaming at me and leaving, I would just freak out. I'd think the whole company is down the tubes now. And, in this economic climate where practically every dollar means the difference between staying open and layoffs... I am just amazed.

Glad to hear it, this is a step in the right direction!!!

Nudity is not "adult". I grew up less than 10 minutes easy walk from a nude beach, and the beach outside our back balcony was topless, and I hardly ever eat babies.

Good point. I've always read that line as 'intense.. nudity'. IMHO it's always a matter of context (for example, I personally don't have a problem with nudity anywhere, but understand that the mature thing to do is to chose one's location responsibly 'where' to be nude, I'm guessing most nude beaches are signposted with what one can expect) - but I just wanted to use the LL's words to highlight the definition problem

IMHO, the current definition is about as close as I'd feel comfortable to getting to labeling anything.

The trick is to not listen to what the customers are saying. Master that and these kinds of decisions become easier.

We can play this game until the end of time. Nany will have a different set of definitions. In fact, there are probably as many possible sets of definitions as there are residents. Even if you were to get general agreement on a California set of definitions and the folks in Ohio manage to get general agreement on their definitions, there would still be as many sets of definitions as there are countries and cultures in the world.

People came to Second Life to get away from such labels and definitions. Is it not obvious that this exercise in definitions is poisonous to Second Life?

I like how only ultra premium users have a say in anything anymore. Why do people even bother commenting on announcements we have no control over?

Seems to me we are really dumbing down the definition of "adult content". A wide range of views come from ppl who are from all over the world, it's smart for LL to take that into account. I am not afraid of labeling full frontal nudity as; adult. I am finding my rule of thumb is anything I wouldn't want small children to see on the grid. (Yes kids are here, we know they are.)

Would I consider a naked alien avatar adult content? No
Would I consider a naked alien avatar with a male "attachment" adult content? Yes

Cat

It might work for isolated island sims that could only be accessed via TP, but it could play hell with any attempt to travel across adjacent sims for anyone who either did not wish to see, or was not verified to see, certain categories of content.

It wouldn't affect me. I'm unshockable - even by clowns with swords and two penises.

The problem with your analysis is though everyone does piss and moan, everyone does that here anyways. No one *actually* leaves or goes through with their threats, so why not do whatever you want?

Also, I'm trying really hard no to laugh at your last sentence. I really can't tell if you're parroting, don't do any research whatsoever, or simply believe everything you're told.

Particularly if it were a female alien.