Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Main Forum Thread

That is a correction I did need. (Wow finally. )

Yes, there are already kids on the main grid. But any Linden worth their weight in hard drives would tell you it cannot be helped. Some resourceful kids are always going to pop onto the main grid. Heck, I've even heard some kids say they are on the main grid /because/ they think pedophiles are constantly trying to "infiltrate" the TG in the first place, so "what's the point in having two grids?"

Personally, I'd be in favour of merging them. It would at the very least shut me up about changing PG to G since there would then be no need.

Also, I am tired of repeating myself as to my point in this off-topic topic, so I'd appreciate it if we could move on to the actual issue.

If LL admits that a lot of the current problems are caused by underage kids using free, unverified accounts, then they'll have to admit they were wrong when they started allowing them all in. God forbid they admit they were wrong... better to pile one bad idea on top of another after the fact to try and fix it.

Apparently previously and a thread posted regarding someone having lunch with Blue suggested it is an estate level flag. However I've been trying to get Blondin to confirm this.

You're not alone in that. Before things like this started, I always thought of Adult and Mature as a category, many in the same. Now it seems as if the English language wasn't vague enough, it needs 3 more definitions per word.

They've always been here.

Some just get in by mistake - I've met a few who were wandering around and confused. I just tell them I'll contact the Lindens and ask for them to be moved then AR them with a note that they signed up for the wrong grid.

Some get in because they're kids and sneaking off to the adults table is fun.

There's really nothing that can be done about either case. These new rules and the 'age verify by credit card' doesn't make me feel safer at all - it's no better than having everybody take their shoes off when they go thru airport security. If anything, I feel less safe now because LL is going to claim they're doing something to make it safer but they're really not.

See also: http://usa.visa.com/merchants/new_acceptance/merchant_responsibility.html

When you say Estate, i have a mental picture of the Caledon estate, which in is a effect a mini-continent all connected up.....that would make more sense because of camming abilities....however mine are all stand alone (phew....I'm glad i did that!).......can only be accessed via TP's....no water sims inbetween them to fly across. They also do not share a common Estate name, so i find it hard how to see why i can't set whatever flags individually.....makes little sense otherwise.

Are they all part of one Estate? If you ban someone by name in sim "A", are they automatically also banned in sim "B"?

Most owners of multiple sims have one Estate that controls all of them, like "Sunrise Properties". They do this so they don't have to fly to every sim they own to ban one griefer from all their sims, or to add a new estate manager to all their sims.

If you actually have a separate Estate for every sim you own, you could flag just one of them as "Adult". But if the sims are controlled as one Estate, you can't. It's all or nothing.

Nope....if i ban a person, i'm given an option. "This sim only" or "all your sims on estate", but i don't have an estate name attached to any of my sims..like "Erlanger Properties" or whatever.


EDIT. Just checked the sims, Sim Name = Estate Name.......meaning they are all different named estates......yet when it comes to banning....i;m given a option "This Estate" or "All estates"

These pages once again groan under the weight of hair-splitting detail concerning the best method of classifying sexuality within Second Life. Again, Linden Lab asks the wrong question.

Background:

The establishment of anonymous accounts in June 2006 opened the doors to underage players. This resulted in international legal scrutiny, increased exposure to legal liability and damaging media coverage. Linden Lab responded by intruding into residents' sexual relationships and expelling two consenting adults for underage roleplay - even though no underage players were involved. Refusal to close the anonymous accounts and dogged insistence on an ineffective and unsound ID-based age verification system cost Linden Lab considerable political capital with no benefit.

Many of us who came into SL in 2006 (and brought money with us) were horrified by the policy changes of 2007. The deal was that LL would provide a basic property rights structure and act solely as a referee in property disputes. We sighed with relief when LL reassured us that they had no intention of applying overarching codes of morality on the community. I also vividly recall LL announcing that we there would be no change in gambling policy. Then came 2007 and bitter disappointment. All the reassurances given only weeks before were abandoned as Linden Lab slammed the gearshift into reverse. For thousands of people, the trust and faith they had in Linden Lab was badly damaged.

During 2008, the company's reputation slowly began to recover. Yes, the openspace pricing model was flawed and, yes, there was a second round of mainland supply problems, but at least LL were not bungling policy anymore. The micro-parcel issue was resolved within reason. LL seemed to be developing the ability to handle complex issues...then bang! We are back to square one with a crude policy on social behavior.

The Right Question:

The right question, then, is a) how best to prevent underage players from mingling with adults and b) how best to zone the mainland in a tolerant and efficient manner? Needless to say, eliminating anonymous accounts solves the first part of the problem. Instead of creating a complicated system of filters to prevent kids accessing adult content, keep them out of SL altogether.

As for the second part, when constructing the mainland, Linden Lab established a patchwork of Mature and PG sims such that a loud BDSM club can open next to a quiet, residential home. The introduction of a third sim type, 'Adult', though badly named (all SL is adult by definition) - let us call it 'Xtreme' instead - makes sense. Constructing an 'Xtreme' continent and allowing residents to migrate there - at their own choosing, at their own pace - also makes sense. It may take a year or two, but I believe most 'Xtreme' players will prefer to be free of the moral harassment they receive from PG residents.

The New Problem:

As has been known since the dawn of time - articulated again recently by the US Supreme Court - one man's obscenity is another man's beauty. To attempt to codify the wide range of human social norms into a regulatory system is counterproductive. At best, it will generate high monitoring and enforcement costs; at worst, it will lead to confusion and conflict within the SL community.

Context and Perspective:

1. Second Life is VIRTUAL, VOLUNTARY and ADULT

Seeking to apply RL standards to a virtual world is silly. There is no safer place on Earth than the privacy of your RL home. It is voluntary in that one must sign up for an account and it is adult in that everyone in SL is an adult (or should be). That means one has passed through puberty, has learned to relate to people and become responsible for one's decisions - including the decision to be in a virtual world with other adults. As an adult, one recognizes and accepts that people have different styles and tastes and that rudeness or harassment should not be confused with sexuality.

2. Creativity needs VARIETY, COMPLEXITY and SYNERGY

Second Life is unique in catering to a broad, international population of adults. Because of its richness and diversity, SL attracts a wide range of entrepreneurs who provide a wide range of services to a wide range of residents. The organic nature of this mix is itself creative. The functionality of a BDSM collar may benefit another entrepreneur making improvements to a 'PG' hugger; Gorean silks may generate new ideas in traditional fashion design; techniques learned to make vampire animations are transferable to dance animations. As for 'deviant' behavior, Penicillin was the result of dirty dishes. Post-It notes were a mistake. Lord Byron was a scoundrel. Virginia Woolf was a manic-depressive. Alan Turing was a homosexual. History is littered with the corpses of the brilliant heretics.

The founders of Second Life understood this. They recognized the organic nature of the IT industry and that 'creative destruction' had to be embraced rather than shunned. They were amazed by the fall of IBM and inspired by the Burning Man festival in the desert of Nevada. They built Second Life - against all the odds - and it was hugely successful. Sadly, in 2007, the regulators, lawyers and bureaucrats arrived. All this organic stuff had to go, they said. The time had come to strip away risk and uncertainty, to seek the lowest common denominator and penetrate the mass market. I summarized the spirit of this new direction in my profile: "In the name of safety and security and to protect residents from themselves, all activities requiring intelligence and maturity will be banned."

3. Don't micromanage the rainforest

Getting rid of snakes may seem like a good idea, but they play a vital role in the natural ecology/economy. Without the snakes, there are too many rodents. Importing hawks to solve the rodent problem disrupts other birds, causing a new problem. Soon, like a vast cascade of dominoes, the whole ecosystem goes out of balance. Hiring 1000 managers and forming new committees to provide more control only makes things worse. In an ever-descending spiral, the managers scramble to repair the ever-increasing damage until the rainforest is finally paved in concrete. Problem solved.

Conclusion:

While my criticisms may seem harsh, I feel it imperative to warn Linden Lab of the long-term consequences of 'cleaning up' Second Life. Yes, improvements can be made in the property rights structure to enable residents greater privacy and control - I am very much in favor of this - but Linden Lab does not seem to realize that the lowest common denominator is poison for any creative enterprise.

I implore Linden Lab to note the howls of protest against this new policy drowning out those voices raised surreptitiously beforehand in its favor. Please reflect on the nature of the world you have created - that became a wonder BEFORE you began meddling with it. Please remember that Second Life is VIRTUAL, VOLUNTARY and ADULT and understand that Disneyfication will buy you at best a temporary advantage before the whole edifice slides gently into banality.

@Deltango Vale

Quite possibly the best post I have read so far. Well said. All of it. I sincerely hope it gets heard, not just duly read, by those Lindens monitoring this thread.

Good post Deltango Vale!

I am still unclear as to who will be offered land , at no lose , in the new adult sim . I own a plot in a mature sim and would want to be included in any land offer in this new adult sim . The reason I bought land in a mature sim was so that I would not have to worry about any restrictions . As it turns out now a lot of our ligament questions are not being answered and I do not want to take the chance that I will face restrictions based on the fact that I own mature land and not adult .

Also , given the current land market in SL what will happen when people rush to exchange there mature land for adult land ? Could we see an adult land mass larger in size then the current mainland ? I do not think that I am alone on this and as a mature land owner I would expect the same offer as some one owning an adult club or shop .

Just because I do not have a club right now , or a shop right now , I still would like my options open , hence the reason I bought a mature plot in the first place and I do not except anything less as a mature land owner .

The fact that so many of our questions are going unanswered go to show how little thought has been put into this matter .

Perhaps some well informed person out there can tell me what is the ratio between PG and mature land ?

Am I the only mature land owner that would expect to receive an offer to move to an adult sim ?

As a mature land owner would you expect and demand the very same offer to upgrade your plot to an adult plot ?

Excellent post, DelTango. If the Lindens read one post (And I know they've read many more than one), that should be it, that they read, understand, learn, and heed.

Very well written, thought out, and stated.

Can we now expect to see adult sand boxes ? Will there be restrictions placed on creativity and where one can exercise there creative right ?

Simple truth is, SL, you tried this last year, one major stumbling block. VErification. Last year it did not work, this year it will nto work. Just as back then as soon ans the accountants tell you how much the free accounts on sl spend here and how much money you will loose, i suspect the proposed checks will be mist as it was last year and since your supposed to be doing what is best for the shareholders, lets hope common sense prefails.

Freee accounts, rent land, shop, support sims.

And please who the heck came up with the 5%? Does anyone really believe that?? Check online stats anytime, theng go around to the adult areas, GOR, BDSM, FRee Sex Rooms, Stripper Clubs, etc. Want to tell us that those are 5% of the users? out of 71000 online at one time to day....between me and two others we were able to account for over 7% in adult sims already without even trying.

a large number of free accounts will not give over informaiton to sl, many do not or will not give sl credit cards. So question is simple, Does sl want to see a signifigant drop in sl memebers and income, or does sl want to fidn a reasonable way to contorl things.

And the bull that the majority of sl users want this?? The majority of sl users don't know aobut this!!! Try posting this to the general users in a login message, then see if they wnat this, I suspect what you willg et is the same thing as last year. If you do this I will leave, over and over again and that the accountant will then use to stop it.

Want to keep the kids safe. Then make every users agree to tos and state they are an adult on a login. Give the sim owners powers to refer suspected avatars to sl for investigation if they suspect they are not adult. With cause of course, meaning providing some evidence to back up the Call.

Remove all adult listings from anyone that has not stated they are of legal age at a login or registration. Don't even give them the option to see it or tp to it.

But please don't scared the hlel out fo everyone when we all knwo the accountants will have the last work, just like last year.

sam

The main experience along the years is, that the company talks mainly as unit, as team, as one voice with one language - and at the end, they act as a unit. There is no opposition within the laboratory, as far as we know. Also we have no customer delegation sitting in the laboratory. If it comes to decisions about our money, freedom and rights and time and efforts we did so far, is there no one who would really collaborate with us.

We are just unsorted and non-effective elementary particles.

We do speak different languages (as you see at my bad amateur english), we're coming from different cultures and life experiences and we are from different countries and continents. This is sure an advantage for the lab, about wich they know and they know how to use the fact, that we are just small and non accorded, disoriented fishes in a big, dark pond.

As far it is to see, a majority of all people is influenced by liberal ideas and experiences and basicly open minded and no wonder: sl is a cosmopolitan environment like no other on earth and it is a magnet for less or more cosmoplitan characters.

Along all major changes, we had never any influence at any decisions of the company, because: no unit, no team, no delegation, no nothing, while confronted with a TOS wich is, ahm, all, but not a mirror for our interests...

Also we like to create and to play and to use all with fun and joy, for what we pay time, concentration and amounts of money enough, instead of doing any sort of politcs or unneccessary additional stress.

But we could really need: speakers, delegations, kind of trade union, industrial union, labour union or how that is called in english and maybe additional some lawyers, who are hmmm? no sharks, not too expensive and somehow connected to the game too.

Maybe one stronger organisation by each continent or hemisphere, some people per each who are authorized by us and acting as contact persons for the lab and vice versa.

People wich are sampling our concerns and justified claims and who are willing and able to speak with one voice in front of the lab and on any channel, to make us able to act as accorded and as unit as the lab does.

Not ever, but ever when a difficult major change is coming up and ever when there is danger, that we are easy to manipulate or easy to be ignored singulary elemetary pieces.

In real life is that called: consumer protection. Since we have no, it would be high time to create one by ourself. Because: in numbers we are maybe millions - but if not millions we are a bigger city, a metropole, or mabye a small country, except bots and alts, we are maybe 2-3-4-5 million unique people - but doesn't matter how much, we are: much - and we become more and as more we become, as more we need a: voice and some power.

I see a need for a sort of authorized representation for us - even while each and everyone as a singular charcater is an authorized representation too for himself and herself, as we see in these forums, but as single pieces we are more or less not really heard and as such we don't catch fitting results for our needs.

Just as a suggestion on wich maybe some ambitioned and more being experienced with that matter people can think on.

Sure, it can cause many problems too: i.e. jealousy between the organisations and characters, diffculties while sampling according things and so on, and how to establish? Per voting? And they would have to be somehow compensated for their efforts and their loss of game fun. Or payed by results and success, to make it not easy to run into sort of curruption thing. However.

But without that, (even while I see not much chances to establish something like that and I do not know a single person who would be willing and able to do that, even no group, or whatever), - I see black for all who have further long-time ambitions in here and for all who were going through thick and thin with the lab so far, some did that for years meanwhile with growing frustrations or ended up in fatalistic or disappointed mode... - because experience shows: without any kind of serious consumer protection, we do sit ever and ever and ever on the shorter side of the leverage and ever we end up as: the losers. As losers we are a unit... - would be nice to see us the first time as winner-unit, or not?

This is, note well, not against the lab. We do need the lab, the lab needs us. Because without dollars and euros, hmmm, the game would be over in a minute and without their tech-equipment and tech-staff, it would be over too - but both sides should be satisfied, not ever only one side...

We need to act more effectiv and robust in the best meaning for that.

The actual case we will lose in any way - there is no satisfying solution at horizon. Even while that thing could be so easy: just by creating a pure PG-continent with a separate entrance for all these maybe entering companies and schools and edu-staff. But there is obviously some sort of bigger plan in background of wich we do know nothing. So,I expect, that we will lose the whole thing somehow. Because it would need much time to establish an effective representation as quickly as needed, but for the future... and since frequently every quarter of a year, a new hammer is falling on our heads, we should try to protect us somehow much more better.

There is a very clear reason why this is not being discussed in public with all users.

The people pushing this idea, know, what happened last year. Seems there is a faction at liden lag doing this. I say that because why else do they bring this up yet again. Well fine you want to try agian then be brave, post a message to all users loggin in and tell them what you want to do.

NO? Of course not because they know as soon as they do, the project is dead. or sl looses a large number of members and income.

Pick one

One point that has been mentioned here earlier, but without any numbers...

I just did a quick check of some randomly chosen mainland regions (PG and Mature) and found that a little more than 40% of avatars were on parcels that would probably have to move to the adult continent. FOURTY PERCENT!

Now 40% is A LOT. At peak-time there are about 80,000 people logged-in. Let's say half of them are on mainland (I'm guessing on this number). That would mean 40,000 people on the mainland, of which 40% = 16,000 would then later be on the adult continent. Assuming of course they would be age-verified and allowed to go there.

Now as far as i know the mainland currently has about 10,000 regions. Someone correct me please if I'm wrong. I couldn't find a number anywhere.

Assuming that 4% of that would have to be moved to an adult continent, that would amount to an area of 400 regions.

Well... 16,000 avatars divided by 400 regions amounts to 40 avatars per region, which is the MAXIMUM any mainland region will hold. Now that's a problem.

I'm wondering if LL did make this calculation...

I have no clue, but it seems that some think it might become even higher priced and more sought after than both Bay City and Nautilus. I think we'll have to wait and see. Until it's clear on all levels, we are speculating and asking clarification. I do hope that Mainland Estate level tools become available to we Mainland sim owners.

Will we have to verify alt accounts separately if we already have payment on file?

Hey sweet Lindens, I did read the threads, it took a long time to...phew...and what did I see?
I saw that approximatley 95% of the users are not amused about you idea?!

Well, what you wanna do? Making all of them upset? Hmm, cloud be a big pitty...

I understand that you want to earn more money *sighs*, it seems you need space for "education and other business"? Space clean of "xxx" and stuff? Right? And you do think mainland is to much covered with?

Oki, good, so why not create a new "clean" mainland? for these "education and other business"? So they have a clean and fresh space and nobody of the old residents need to move away from the old mainland! After reading the whole amount of problems you have to solve with the moving of your loyal old residents, this would be easy! Right? So, why dont you do that? its sooooo easy?

Sure, the average old resident will not set a foot on the "clean mainland" if its possible to avoid that. But thats not your problem...

Let us be honest, without the "xxx" fun and stuff, you wanna ban into ghetto, the average old resident never would have entered SL or stayed sooo long, real life is clean and boring enough...your users dont want a RL copy here in SL...

LG Maxine

The more I’m thinking about this the less I understand what the hell it is about. The whole thing just seems to defy any common sense:

1) Linden Labs announces upcoming rules that will arguably bring substantial changes for many people’s “Second Life experience”, but they are not able to specify two fundamental components of those rules:
- Clear definition of “adult activities” that will have to be confined in the new ghetto,
- Comprehensive, practicable solutions for age-verification that are reasonably accessible for the residents willing to do so (and here again, I really insist on how penalizing this potentially is for many non-US residents).

2) Despite those unclear aspects above-mentioned, LL is apparently very advanced already in setting up the new continent.

3) Although they don’t know yet what will be classified as adult, they already know that it concerns 2-4% of the current content.

4) Messages delivered by various Lindens are not really consistent.

5) Residents information is carried out in a minimalistic way.

I’ve read the blog announcement several times and something that really strikes me in the wording is that the issue of underage users is not at all mentioned, there’s just a vague allusion about “an additional level of assurance for providers of Adult content that only adults are able to access their content”. So, actually minors' protection is not even, in LL's concept, the main motive of this change.

Beyond the foreseeable devastating effect this will have on SL’s frequentation and dynamics, beyond the big mess that the implementation will generate (think big adult SL-businesses filling lawsuits against LL, think black-market of “adult content”), what worries me the most is that the image LL is giving of itself is one of an un-coordinated, incoherent, mismanaged and self-righteous corporation and that doesn’t bode well for Second Life’s future.

As I have asked before, but feel I have not been responded to, I will ask again... What about business models that incorporate mixed use sims? My sim, and my business model, are set up for best use of sim resources, and moving only my club to an adults only sim will simply not work for me. First of all, I personally cannot afford to operate two separate sims. A LARGE part of my functionality as a club comes from having control (since I own the other properties around me) over the number and types of scripts, textures, particles, and other lag inducing elements in the sim with my club, thereby saving those resources for the club itself, and allowing us to run fairly lag free (average 43 fps, unless we are a day or two before a restart, when we are ultra laggy for some reason). Moving ONLY my club, therefore, places me, potentially into a sim with several others in a position like mine, where they only have to move their club, where we can all run the same equipment using the same scripts, and fight for the 40 avatars allowed in the sim with out concurrent events. How is this beneficial to ANY of us? People LEAVE clubs when the lag is so bad they are walking through molasses. They rez in, can't move, and go somewhere else. Conversely, the other businesses in my sim are designed for new players, a 5 linden store, a free cutting garden, art galleries, etc. These all benefit from the "wander" traffic OUT of the club. Removing the club from the area will adversely affect my traffic, but moving them to an adults only, age verified sim would be worse. I find it hard to believe that brand new players looking for affordable starter fashions will be age verified and able to reach us. So my choices appear to be... Kill my club by sharing space with other clubs, kill my stores by moving them out of reach of my customers, or spend twice the money in order to maintain 2 separate sims. How is this a simple and easy transition?

But we could really need: speakers, delegations, kind of trade union, industrial union, labour union or how that is called in english and maybe additional some lawyers, who are hmmm? no sharks, not too expensive and somehow connected to the game too.

Maybe one stronger organisation by each continent or hemisphere, some people per each who are authorized by us and acting as contact persons for the lab and vice versa.


The above was a quote from another reply, but I mis-formatted it or something.

There IS a group in-world trying to organize and speak out... Search *I* Am Adult Content in groups. Enrollment is open and free and we are working to be a collective voice. Two of us met today (March 18th) with Blue Linden during his office hours, and we will continue to meet with any Linden who will have us, either during their office hours, or during our weekly discussion groups. If for some reason you cannot find us in search and are interested in membership, please IM me (catriana ninetails), or our other group owners; Mystressanna Lovenkraft, Kyle Steig, and Crystalline Silverspar for an invitation to the group.

Why, then, enact an age-verification system for a grid where everyone is already presumably of legal age?