Feedback on the Mainland

Advertisements:
I agree with pretty much everyone else, that the advertisements are very irritating, unsightly and in some cases even cause server lag in regions flooded with ads.

Zoning:
This sounds like an amazing idea, the sooner the better, however this doesnt seem like a job that can be done at any remotely fast speed. I am glad to see the implementation of such land governing.

Suggestions:
What about paying residents to be active in the reporting process. Giving an incentive to use the recommended reporting process in order to rid the (second) world of unwanted people. Possibly a small payment in lindens for reporting and supplying evidence of TOS violations.

If your signage is over your store, I certainly don't have any problem with it. However, when it is over MY store or, worse, over my HOME, I *DO* have a problem with it.



I don't know about others, but everyone I have encountered has cheered when ads are blocked. In fact, I daresay the ONLY people who complain are the ones who own the ads being blocked, or their shill buddies. The neighbors most certainly never complain.



Compared to SPAM? ABSO-FRACKIN-LUTELY, DUDE! They are effin MONET compared to that crap.



I wouldn't consider buying the land at FMV "supporting them". They're the chunks they are dumping. I certainly won't pay the extortion prices for them. I don't find it hypocritical at all, really. We're not MAKING MONEY off of it, and the whole point IS to beautify the view, at the end of the day. We're quite happy to make them go away once you and your ilk are gone. All of which is totally foreign to your mindset.



I keep hearing this, but I have yet to see ANY evidence of any significant use to justify the blight. It is also a VERY one-sided statistic. You provide no way to obtain any data on people who do NOT like your ads. Why don't you put up an ad in the rotation that says "click here if you don't like these ads or don't want this tower here". When you have a balanced set of statistics, come back and let me know. In the meantime, all you have is useless statistics.



Umm. Well, a neighbor IS blocking "his view" of your ads. If it happens to be an adjacent neighbor, the side effect is that everyone else's view of your ads is blocked, too. Oh well.



Trending on incomplete data doesn't tell you anything significant, as it paints a woefully incomplete picture.



Ohhh.. I have been waiting for this argument..

I DON'T PAY FOR RADIO OR TV! I also AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE games which have stupid, moronic "product placement" crap advertising. I PAID for the game, I don't need to suck down that BS. If the game was free, that would be one thing, but when I PAY, advertising goes in the trash where it belongs. Game ads in forums for said game aren't truly "ads". Besides, the "I don't pay" rule comes into play. If I don't pay for access to the forum, I don't care if it has ads. If I DO pay, they better effing disappear.

Roadside ads are a mixed bag. There are many places where they are WAY overdone, and are eyesores. Eventually communities get a clue and clean them up. The rest are necessary (and some are even useful). However, don't think for a minute that SL even REMOTELY mirrors RL in that aspect, and as such the analogue doesn't even come close to applying here.

I don't know about your brain, but mine doesn't "ignore" blatant advertising. I am a highly attentive and perceptive person, so all advertising does is annoy the tee total crap out of me. I find tolerance for it in very narrow circumstances, and outside of that, it needs to all be wished into the cornfield.



It's not an "advert". It's called an "identification mark". I BOUGHT it. I like the reminder of what it is so I don't have to go dig out the paperwork to remind myself or someone else who asks what it is. I also don't mind the sign right outside my store (or your store, or anyone's store), identifying it.

Now, if I bought a computer monitor that constantly flashed random ads for god knows what on some or all of the screen every few minutes, I would most likely end up murdering someone (probably the manufacturer). Just like some random sign on some tiny ass little plot where NOBODY *CAN* live filled with massive amounts of constantly changing random crap that I have ABSOLUTELY *NO* interest in.

I've opened a thread for discussion of the proposed new Forum Guidelines, for those interested.

I'll be participating in this new discussion thread, on and off, until Tuesday August 12. Your patience will be appreciated, because I will only be able to read and respond in bursts, not continually -- but I will be interested to hear what you think, and I will read all your comments.

These guidelines are an attempt to clarify, in one place, not just rules, but some things that seem to confuse some people, and also our guidelines for what you can expect in the way of moderation (and penalties.)

I welcome your constructive criticism.

/341/0d/275405/1.html

-- Katt Linden

If you will note, the legal definition of trespass was among the meanings.



I'm sorry, but I don't usually see the law equivocating copyright infringement with some pixel toon walking over an imaginary line in an imaginary world.



Well, I tell ya what, when the first case of virtual "step over the imaginary property line" criminal trespass case gets to court, and someone gets convicted and goes to jail, come back and we'll talk. Until then, I will feel quite safe from prosecution over it.



Getting a little bit on the esoteric side of things, aren't we? Money is not nearly as large a factor in a criminal case as a civil case. In addition, "people" don't "pursue" a criminal case; the State pursues criminal cases, sometimes on behalf of the victim(s).



Cool. Keep studying.

Hi Jack

I'm gonna give you my point of view as someone who is relativley new to SL.

I have just under a quarter of a region in land spready between 2 private islands with convenants and rented from one of the largest private estate companies on SL. The covenant is maintained strictly, when there is a problem the land owners are over (or one of their managers) within 5 minutes. Round the clock 24/7 support.

A lot of friends of mine jumped from private island rental to mainland. Within 2 months of moving several if not all of the following has happened to them...

Land encroachment...

New neighbours building HUGE towers with particles spewing all over the place...

Having what i consider a POINTLESS linden road shoved right through the middle of their plot...

Greifing...

Ad plot appearing next to them with ban lines...

New neighbours sticking up ban lines next door...

In all cases there has been little to no support, in all cases there is no word from any concern those friends have had.

Those friends either abandoned their land or sold them dirt cheap just to get rid of them and over half of those people cancelled their premium membership. All of them went back to private land rentals.

I'm sorry Jack, I look at the mainland as a joke. Pure plain and simple joke. I will NEVER buy mainland, even bay city became a right royal rip off with carvers going in and selling off parcels of the land at a price where you can get a HALF of a mainland sim for?

LMAOOOOOOO

I can understand the desire for "privacy", such as it is in SL even if I don't subscribe to it myself. The issue is we just don't have a really useful way to ensure it other than a private island with restricted access. I do like the idea of being moved through the parcel automatically. That at least removes the major nuisance for innocent avatars as well as the visual spam and doesn't compromise any of the current protections for the landowner.

As for me, I pretty much expect to have a few random visitors from time to time. It's SL, that happens. Much like RPGs where you get to wander into every house you come across. If someone actively causes problems or refuses to leave, they better like bananaphones and mudkips.

Well done and a heart felt Bravo! You are up against a lot on the mainland and I commend your efforts. Your neighboring sims would be smart to continue your road Shoot me an IM I would love to come visit.

I wish more ppl made the effort you have.

*Trin

**Update: Checked your sim out; very nice )))

business is great Melodie... and i have never put a spinning ad up, ever

But, you could not 'live' on the 16sqm's you complain to others about when they block your adds, add farmer.

I love my mainland home. Thank you for being careful when it comes to changing the mainland. It may not suit some people, and there are ways it can be improved, but always bear in mind that it means a lot to many people.

As far as I can see LL most likely makes more than 295$ for the average mainland sim in tier - simply because most of thouse have lots of smaller parcels, which will make them more tier than estate.

If a sim is divided into 16x4096 sqm parcels, that will make them 400 USD in tier (+ premium fees) - a sim with smaller parcels even more... So it's just not true that mainland is cheaper for most of the people who own mainland, only if you really have a very large parcel or own the whole sim.

In addition you don't have all of the options private island have (terrain, can just move the sim to another place...), so I think there's a justified reason that whole mainland sims are being offered at a lower tier.

Good that you acknowledge this, but quite honestly? The way the original blog post was worded, and the impression that was given, was that there WOULD be concrete info. And I'm just not seeing it. Perhaps your blog posts would be better worded in a format of 'We would like to make changes to "X", and are interested in your feedback, please comment on /x thread/' instead would be more direct AND more effective? Without creating false expectations?



Doesn't mean 'King Linden' actually cares. Only that's it's read.

(Why yes, I'm getting cynical in my old age... "Same **** Diffferent Day gets real old after a while.)


Now, all this ranting aside...

The idea seen elsewhere (possibly posted later in the thread than the spot I am replying to) of "Only allow minimum sizes for sale on open market" seems like a lovely idea. Key words being OPEN MARKET only. This would still allow resi-to-resi sales of small parcels, and parcel-dicing to rearrange things as long as it's not set for sale to 'anyone'.

LL used to have LL-provided advertising networks, I still see traces of them at the welcome areas. Perhaps something like this could be used again, a la RL billboards? If LL provided the access points (thus negating the need for the SEA of adver-crap we have today) - in combination with the minimum-open-sale-parcel-size idea, it might be a better compromise.

AR's by adver-crappers because they don't like having their views blocked - and their AR's get acted upon, but the resident who's got the crappy view has to put up with it, instead of being able to put up PHANTOM walls - that anyone with a brain could bump into and see whether they're phantom or not before AR'ing someone out of spite?

Awful.

And you wonder why people don't have faith in your policies. Sheesh.



Autoreturn would be LOVELY! Even a 1-hr autoreturn would be better than no autoreturn at all!

Or if not that, then AT LEAST move prims that are encroaching onto neighboring parcels, fully onto the essentially-abandoned parcel. I had that issue once, and it was ignored for a long damn time, and then I think it was closed WITH NO COMMENT by staff (talk about adding insult to injury!), while I had neighboring prims sticking about halfway through my own at-the-time itty bitty small parcel. I eventually gave up and sold out.

Building up to parcel borders I never had a problem with - but 5m of a 10m prim sticking into my build, THAT I have a problem with. Being ignored, THAT I have a problem with.

See the theme?

What (if anything) will be done about the lag issues on the mainland?

This is completely off track for what I clearly meant. It was in reference to people being on the parcel of another person, not about stealing textures, scripts, or using a copybot and you knew that. I can not come on your "land" and hurt anything, and I don't leave behind any forensic evidence I was there either. LOL

I don't know if you are trying to start a flame with me, or playing lawyer, either way, your post has no bearing on what I said.

DRD

Hey Talarus - I like your style man.

DRD

This post is off-topic for this thread. Please remove it. Thank you.

I agree on every word the Linden guy say, and I think this is one of the 2 biggest issues LL has to take care of.

The other one is the camping boths on the mainland and on private islands that boost the traffic and lures our residents. I think it's time for LL to assign some officers to take charge of the anarchy in SL. I'm not a WoW player but I have heard that they also have some kind officers hired by Blizzard to stear things up. But with this also comes the rights of every resident to defend themselves if being accused by anything from LL. We need a democracy and not a dictatorship if we will be using officers. But we need a SL Police

There are places where zoning would be great and some places it would be horrible. Large scale retail and businesses associated with entertainment would be a great place to start. If Linden Lab would take back the land of people who never log in, and auction it, there would be even more renewed interest in the mainland. The auctions would also create a fresh income stream. I have neighbours who haven't been logged in for more than half an hour over the last four years. Attempting to get them to sell or do something with their land, even clean off the crap and set it to no build almost never works. It is all very discouraging and I wouldn't be surprised if a few of them have died over the last few years. Maybe taking away the free 4096 from lifetime and charter members unless they log in two or more hours every month might be a good thing.

In the UK, we have radio and television without advertisements, and are appalled when we see what others have to suffer in this respect. This is because we pay for these with a license fee - as I pay for SL.

Complaints about billboards to local councils and advertising regulators are common.

Reading forum posts is vlountary, and signatures can be turned off.

Branding of (at least my) PC is discreet and out of the main line of view.

Yes, we can turn away from the computer screen, by leaving SL and ceasing to contribute.

JubJub, to get things in proportion, I do want to congratulate you on being bold enough to enter into the argument here. I believe you are not an extortionist, but that your blocks are aggravating. From the numbers of your neighbours that you say block them, so do many others. By the way, you do need to subtract one click-through from your statistics - before I knew better, I did click through and go to your stote, just to find out who it was who was putting up these orange things.

Actually one of the more vehement posters raised a good point about polling...
80000 people on SL today (ish).. only a few chose to contribute here - some multiple times.. and some with what seems as over the top outrage (humans... shrug).
What is the actual percentage of people who care? My personal experience as an advertiser is that not many seem to bother. In 6 months only 15 odd have approached me - despite my profile saying happy to work with residents. One guy Imed me 30 mins ago with abuse... i very politely offered to sell the plot in question to him at cost = $75LD - he turned me down saying "thats like selling my soul". ?? (he even admitted he was an advertiser too)
Seems to me is a very vocal minority 55 pages at 15 per page is 825 out of 80,000?

Is it possible for the Lindens to use the process available to them -polling at the login screen... to do a carefully worded survey? and get some actual stats on how many people care?

for instance...

Do you care about ads on mainland?
1/ Yes hateful things remove em all and send advertisers to * insert appropriate punishment here
2/ there's too many..cut down the numbers and zone them so its someone elses problem
3/ i like ads they inform me and alert me to sales where i can save money
4/ i never go to mainland it's so ugly with all those horrible textures and builds
5/ pfft what ads? just let me into SL dammit!!!

Meade, there are other ways to keep people off your land other than those terrible ban lines. For instance you can buy security systems that will allow enough time for a resident to fly over your land but not loiter, before they are removed. They are on the whole a much more community friendly approach than ban lines, and are usually just a one prim box.

cause jubjub i go to my secondlife home to relax not for ppl to try and sell me stuff.... and thats the reason i turned away from the mainland.

i gota say LL this is a great start and it will be interesting to see what your plan will be in due course. I agree i pay more tier to live in a private estate but i thinik its worth every $L and will take a lot to get me back to the mainland where i started with my land ownership.

Xav

I for one support our new Zoning Overlords and anxiously await their arrival. Thank you Linden Labs/Linden Research. I personally believe that in new Zoned areas you'll find happier, more satisfied Mainland Residents.



Speaking from limited experience, I believe most people are so jaded that they decide not to contact the ad owner as they believe that it will accomplish nothing. For instance, when I contacted you about the ad you own and operate on the sim I live, I was told something along the lines of "My ad was here before you purchased land so I see no need to move it. Also, there's land behind you that could be bought and turned into an ad/ad farm. Or, if it really bothers you that much you could always just turn your house in a different direction." Paraphrasing, I know...but alas I've deleted the note card. But in either case, the option(s) of taking said ads off Full bright was never discussed. Nor was making them smaller by a percentage or degree. Nor was the act of simply moving them closer to the ground.

When I contacted you, politely I believe, but like I said...I deleted the note cards.....I was told, more or less "Suck it up and/or turn your house." These are the types of responses and experiences that cause many who live near ad farmers and/or advertisers to grow jaded and not even bother with the process anymore.



But oh well......perhaps I shall just have to wait it out until I can get some new, Zoned off land. Preferably in a Residential sim where advertising simply isn't allowed.

* Actually JJ .. i think you did approach this person instead .. just a thaught..

* I can understand this person did not buy this plot. This guy maybe has some principes after you did terrorize his view for over a year. Why you want to sell it now ? Cause of the upcoming changes in the policy ? pretty odd

* I think if people are in need for one prim sculpties they can search for it : slexchange or classifieds, or they can create one themselves. They dont need a 24/7 offer in their backyard, 3 layers high.

* Indeed this person advertises : flat textured objects on parcels that are for sale since 60% of the avatars are flying when they are exploring a region, very effective ! The rest of his marketing goes from mouth to mouth ( a result of grid caring behaviour ), or inside ad vendors.

* I know this person by coincedence.

Yes, the old "forums are a vocal minority of users" argument. Thing is, it has been shown in many cases that the forums actually are a fairly representative subset of the userbase on many subjects of interest. My personal experience as an anonymous resident is that, when anyone talks about the subject, almost invariably it is "gads I hate those things". A few are indifferent about it, but outside of advertisers or their clientele, I have yet to meet anyone positive or supportive of advertisers. Sure, it's anecdotal, but when you see the proportions of people here, at Jack's and Robin's Office Hours, posting on the blog, showing up at Ad Zoo and Arbor Project meetings, etc, it all adds up to a very large negative tide against abusive, blatant spam advertising.

As has been pointed out, many folks just don't bother, because they have heard the stories of abuse, and ones of indifference on the part of the adfarmer.



We've asked Jack about it, but he hasn't indicated any interest.