Feedback on the Mainland

I'm starting a post as a space saver on the off chance that this thread gets closed when Jack returns to "sum up" the discussion. I'll be back to edit in a proper response soon (if that's possible). Also need to read the rest of the posts too.

Otherwise I'll blog a post at:

http://web.mac.com/salazarjack/iWeb/Site/Blog/Blog.html

Salazar Jack
The Lighthouse
Cowell (115, 29)
The Forest of Kahruvel
Sansara, The Mainland

Does that freedom include the freedom to block the view of your ugly ad towers?[/QUOTE]

No ------- Names removed by Katt Linden -------------
, it does not include the freedom to harass people, nor encourage others to harass people when you have no actual land interest in the area.
And i note instead of contributing to this thread with ideas... you chose to harass again.
I don't believe you have any rights to dictate to others what they do. No-one voted you abitrator of whats an appropriate build.
Advertising is allowed. Indeed is necessary for business. And just cause you don't like ads doesn't mean others don't use them.

Unfortunately, it doesn't solve the land extortionist problem, and is covered by several JIRAs, that Argent previously posted.

No ------- Names removed by Katt Linden -------------
, it does not include the freedom to harass people, nor encourage others to harass people when you have no actual land interest in the area.
And i note instead of contributing to this thread with ideas... you chose to harass again.
I don't believe you have any rights to dictate to others what they do. No-one voted you abitrator of whats an appropriate build.
Advertising is allowed. Indeed is necessary for business. And just cause you don't like ads doesn't mean others don't use them.[/QUOTE]


As many have already said, the real harassment here is imposing your "freedom" to pollute the viewscape with big obnoxious ad towers. If I own land, I have land interest, and that is not for you to judge. It is interesting that you interpret anything that opposes your ideas as harassment. Grow up ------- Names removed by Katt Linden -------------
. Advertising is allowed, yes, but your particular form of advertising has seen its day. I have a right to express my views, whether it is here or with protest signs on my land. I am not dictating anything. I and many others have devoted considerable time and resources to try and lessen the damage people like you do to SL.

What on earth are you talking about: "harass"? Shielding my view of your build is somehow "harassment"?

Adfarmers may have had the "freedom" to destroy the Mainland in the past, but rest assured that this will change, because it has to.

Now where have I heard that before?

More cases need to go to court on this to establish precedent, and common law rules to to govern SL. However, an issue here is jurisdiction.

There are several issues to focus on: Has a crime been committed? If it is deemed that a crime has been committed, where has it been committed? Which legal system will apply? There may well be terms of service and community standards, but these are still subject to a legal system. A starting point can then be the location of the main Linden servers... which can infer that US Federal and State law can apply. However, where a resident is using their own server in an agreement with Linden, then the locale of those servers need to be taken into account too. This then presents a legal conundrum, of which jurisdiction applies and therefore, which legal system applies.

A few years ago, the "love bug" from the Philippines did the rounds, causing much damage worldwide. The reason this is interesting, is due to the fact of legalities. Under Philippine Law, no crime had been committed, as they did not have any laws in place under which to prosecute the crime, thus there was no crime. If this then is applied to SL, and in world transactions, and a crime is then committed, but that crime is deemed to have taken place in a jurisdiction where that act is not seen as a crime, then no crime occurs and thus no action can be taken. This is why the establishment of jurisdiction is important.

It has been suggested that the Internet is a new jurisdiction, and thus requires its own legal system, while other support the self-regulation theory. However, neither will suffice in governing the Internet. There needs to be a hybrid of both.

If a crime is committed in SL, how can it be determined where it has been committed so as to know which legal system will apply? And once this has been determined, it needs then to be evaluated to see if that legal system does then in fact apply. SL, by its nature, is global, but localised to some servers located in set places.

Take for example a phone call, where a person is either end but the conversation takes place at some point in between. So too with SL... where do these transactions take place? This is particularly interesting, as 'owned' land can still be claimed back by the covenanted owner (sim owner), even if tier (tax) is being paid, and this can then be claimed by Linden Labs.

This is indeed a legal quandary for the courts to settle. Clearly, there is much at stake within SL with many residents making a living from the transactions within SL. There is a reliance upon the services rendered within SL, and thus creating a situation where breach of promise can incur a person a loss of livelihood and as such, this needs some form of legal protection. There is certainly a requirement for the courts to take an active role in resolving these issues.

In this case, there is no "crime". No legal system outside of LL's ToS is in effect, so no, I cannot be jailed for breaking their ToS. I can be banned from their service, but nothing else, unless I actually break a RL law.

Also, we don't need any "legal system" for the Internet. Use of the Internet is a privilege, and a highly optional one at that.

OK, so if I have a small store on a 512 with (say) 20 sale boxes, I need to buy an extra 4500 square meters?

The problem here is, how do you define what an "ad" is?
Um, no, I can imagine what I've written being interpreted as wondering why ban lines exist at all, and I think that I should have the right to fly over your house so long as I don't bug you, and I've suggested scripted solutions to the problems that are kinder and gentler than ban lines and security orbs... without ever intending to say that it's OK for Joe Trespasser to use your Sexgen bed when you're not there.

There's plenty of room between "ban lines don't provide a benefit commensurate with the problems they cause" and "you shouldn't be able to stop people from doing whatever they want with your stuff".

Um, no, I can imagine what I've written being interpreted as wondering why ban lines exist at all, and I think that I should have the right to fly over your house so long as I don't bug you, and I've suggested scripted solutions to the problems that are kinder and gentler than ban lines and security orbs... without ever intending to say that it's OK for Joe Trespasser to use your Sexgen bed when you're not there.

There's plenty of room between "ban lines don't provide a benefit commensurate with the problems they cause" and "you shouldn't be able to stop people from doing whatever they want with your stuff".

My sim-partner and me own a full mainland sim. We worked over a year to buy parcel by parcel and getting full sim ownership, the whole 65000+ sqm. Then we decided to design the sim as an example of a better place on mainland. We made a mix of all but with stringent style: the very best desgner buildings wich were available, the best plants, a nice road, some small business buildings and private zones for living. No ad-farms, no agrresive advertising on our small shop signs, no banlines, even not at our private houses/zones, and very comfy and perfect looking. Our sim is surrounded by ad-farms, big prims and whatever trash, but we learned to somehow ignore that more or less, but since we pay the european monthly fee, wich is all in all 235 dollar, because european VAT is included, we would prefer to see soon some serious action against ad-farming and big-prim walls and also banlines. We would not like zoning, because we created a mixed zone (no club on it, just small business like art gallery, fashion, design, etc.) with small shops, nature and private zones on one sim. Our own street goes straight through the middle of our sim, as kind of orientation for visitors and shoppers and is thought more for to walk along than to race on. So, from our view: all ideas are welcome to eliminate ad-farming and other disturbing impressions things around and we support any good idea and action by the lab. But we wouldn't like to see our own creatings destroyed by lab-streets or zoning obligations. On our wishlist is also, to have nearly or the equal same managing and controlling tools for the sim, wich island owners have, if and where it is technical possible. But our main-problem is really the ad-farming wich cuts down the visible-values we created there and wich giving visitors a not so good impression about the viewable zones around our sim. Thank you for all upcoming efforts, to make mainland a really better experience for owners of smaller parcels or whole regions and the money we pay, wich is nearly as much as an island owner pays - and this is a good reason to help us mainland residents and it will help also all people who own smaller parts of mainland, to have a more comfortable life there all in all.

My "parcel basement" suggestion would have done that. The "phantom zone" suggestions made by others would have had the same effect. The latest iteration of this is the "skybox zone" (SVC-2390).

Create a trouble ticket on the Linden Labs support portal. Seriously. The Lindens are really good at removing obstructing trees. They even do it when nobody complains, if they notice them when they're cleaning up land to auction.

As long as mainland is valued with lower tier than private islands, I do not see why it should be offered as a perfect alternative. It puts a stain into LindenLabs advertising of SL as a business platform already, that private island owners are overcharged with 295$ a month towards mainland sims with 195$. Why? Is there any difference in the hardware provided? It doesn't seem to me. Island owners take over most of the work of LindenLabs concierge and support for their sims for which they should receive a substantial rebate instead of paying a higher price - and then you want to harm them further by creating equal situations on mainland by zoned areas? I can as well drop my 70 sims then, since the landmarket for private owners has already been significantly harmed by the ridiculous price drop for sims and the resulting overflowing of private regions. (While the mainland supply gets stopped in case of market saturation).
LindenLabs has never shown any will of substituting or responsibility (not that these would be a known term on the internet) for their called-in "entrepreneurs" in the past - at some point it will just get too much and a significant change on the rules on mainland would be the point where we better say bye bye - since too many scammers have (unpunished) ruined the reputation of serious landowners there would be no more reason for anyone to rent land from a private person if the mainland enters a similar quality that private regions have.
If this is LL's interest better say it out loud now, so we have time to close our possessions at least. We (and this meaning sellers, landowners and any kind of businesses in SL) have been fooled often enough by unwelcome decisisons made above our heads.
A wholeseller should not compete with retail at all. But it;s always "LL" and not "we" - right?

No, you can't fly over, unless you fly while leaning on the PgUp key because if you don't you keep sinking to the level where you hit the ban lans all the time.

No, you can't travel through. You bounce off, and you have to work your way around.

And yet out of the +20k regions on the grid, only 5k of them are mainland..

Cause we're the idiots here eventually....

June 24, 2008 saw the following article get released "who owns our resident-owned assets?" (http://slnn.com/article/who-owns-what-in-second-life/). This article deals with the SL/RL crossover and the theft if Intellectual Property.



For you to claim, I quote:



One needs to have an understanding of trespass is...and to make such a statement indicates a lack of understanding of what tresspass means. To understand what trespas is, the term needs to be evaluated in the light of how the term is employed by the legal system and the courts. Further, if one deems that only a single legal systems applies this is a fairly narrow outlook, as SL spans wider than that... In effect, when a crime is committed in SL, one does not know where that crime has been committed, and until it is known, then one cannot bring an action.

To say there is no property, well here again, the term needs evaluating in the light of the legal system to understand this. There is intellectual property and this certainly can be infringed, and effectively trespassed upon and stolen.

There is indeed property and there can be theft of that property.

Unfortunately, it seems you either live a sheltered life, or you are blind to all the crime on the Internet. The Internet most certainly does need a legal system in order for prosecutions to be brought.

And yes RL can be broken in SL and you can be brought to justice and spend time in jail.

I am not talking about breaking RL laws in SL, I am talking about getting prosecuted in RL for breaking the ToS.

The ToS is a CIVIL CONTRACT. Most of the time, the RL legal system is not concerned with violations of contract terms, until one party or the other BRINGS them to the attention of the courts for remedy. Even then, it will result in a CIVIL case, not a CRIMINAL one.

ohh i see.... your prims and signage are ok but mine is not? Your "ugly obnoxious" screens floating in the air are ok, but my adverts for my shops aren't. Your encouraging residents to block all sides of an advertisement on a sim you have never visited is ok? Your purchasing of land expressly to block ads, regardless of locals opinion is ok? Your land plots with one or two ferns, a cheap 3 prim fountain and giant floating screens are beautifying SL are they?

I find it a little hypocritical when people buy an ad block and erect a set of "ad farms suck" signs exhorting others to not support "ad farmers". They don't seem to get that they are supporting the very people they dont like by purchasing the land... and i have yet to see one of those signs beautifying any view.

Please understand - i do not like land extortionists. it is a problem i would like to see solved.
However, enough people click my (valid) ads and they generate enough traffic/sales for me to know that there are people who find them useful. I dont mind a neighbour blocking his view of my ads... i object to one person abitrarily deciding no-one should see them.

FYI i recently did a visit to every block I own over 3 days... estimates would be..
- erected signage against adfarms 3-5% (often by same AVs with large ugly signs proclaiming ad farms suck - hypocrites)
- blocking on 2-4 sides... 1-3% (with prims/screens often supplied by one of three AVs (coughs))
- blocking on one side... a single neighbour erecting a wall/fence to block their view of ad... maybe as high as 30-40%
- clicks/responses...depending on the ad on display... as high as 5% a day. Thats 5% targetted, spending traffic for a low initial investment and minimal maintenance.
- different advertisers ... 100s
- extortionists - people with no ad, a for sale sign, or trash, and prices over $200LD... well its basically the same names over and over - i would estimate 20 AVs(if that)
- amount of ad parcels owned by those few AVs... well over 80%... i reckon on close to 90%

I don't have many ad blocks.. but enough to show me trends.

And before ya flame me for erecting allowed ads... consider this... you are surrounded by advertising..on radio, tv, billboards, and in many 'games' - has any one of you ever complained about a roadside ad you drive past each day in RL? Or an ad at the bottom of a forum post? Or a "brand reinforcement" for a game you already play, in a forum you already know what its for?(see top of page). No your brain ignores these - but suddenly when it's in "your view" its a huge problem?
Can anyone explain why you can ignore the brand advert on your computer monitor but not the ad on the screen (which you can simply turn away from)?

I spend large amounts of L on both land and plants for my locations. Yes, I panel off ads EVERY CHANCE I GET. Advertising has its place. Floating and spinning high off in the air is an automatic NO for any sort of interest to me. There are 2 plant places that I have visited and spent L at who I found because their billboards were well done, attached to the ground and not intrusive.

I visit everywhere that I own land every day. I have only ever seen your ads in the middle of other ad plots in terribly cut up locations. As they are floating and spinning ads, my only interest in your signs is how many panels can I put up. Fortunately, I am nowhere near yours.

Tell me, how are sales of trees when you anger all the treehuggers?

And people are simply turning away--from the Mainland, in droves.

The only real freedom involved in any of this is Linden Lab's freedom to run their Mainland as a profitable business. Current versions of in-world billboard display advertising erode that profitability. They have every right and every reason to close it down in favor of something that isn't universally loathed, avoided, and fled.

tres·pass (trsps, -ps)
intr.v. tres·passed, tres·pass·ing, tres·pass·es
1. To commit an offense or a sin; transgress or err.
2. Law To commit an unlawful injury to the person, property, or rights of another, with actual or implied force or violence, especially to enter onto another's land wrongfully.
3. To infringe on the privacy, time, or attention of another: "I must . . . not trespass too far on the patience of a good-natured critic" Henry Fielding.
n. (trsps, -ps)
1. Transgression of a moral or social law, code, or duty.
2. Law
a. The act of trespassing.
b. A suit brought for trespassing.
3. An intrusion or infringement on another. See Synonyms at breach.

Trespassing is not a "crime" in SL. It *MAY* be against the ToS, depending on the circumstances, but you can NOT and will NOT be prosecuted for it in RL.



Arguing semantics won't win any points here. The sense of trespassing in use thus refers to violating personal space or privacy. Since privacy is not a right granted inside a service managed by a private company, but is instead a tenet in a contract, the most that can be expected is the redress provided by said contract for violation. It has nothing to do with intellectual property "trespass". Two totally different senses of the word.

To be prosecuted in RL for breaking ToS, Linden would have to bring an action. However to say a person cannot face a criminal prosecution for acts in SL is incorrect. There have been residents criminally prosecuted for pedalling child porn within SL. This violates the community standards, and the ToS and they faced jail time.

Quoting a dictionary is irrelevant as I qualified what I wrote... I stated trespass as interpretted by courts and the legal system. It is wholly different from the dictionary. Its not semantics, its how the law views it... and again to its not crime, is incorrect. Unless its taken to court, it cannot be determined if it is indeed a crime or not. The ToS is irrelevant as it is itself subject to the legal systems of this world. So to say trespassing is not a crime... or for that matter, is a crime, unless its gone through court....it cannot be determined, however, based on how the courts view and define things, yes, one could very well be legally prosecuted irrespective of the ToS.

Unfortunately, too many view it as a justice system... it is not, it is a legal system and a question of law not semantics. Justice never enters into the equation...though in some cases justice is served. The more money a person has to pursue a court case, civil or criminal...and SL and Internet, is one of those unique that bridges the two, and makes it a civil and criminal case at the same time.

This area is my main focus, its what I am about, its what I study... and intend to continue to study.