Feedback on the Mainland

Well, for what it's worth, I think it's an excellent intention to 'clean up' some of the mess on mainland....created by residents themselves!! Life is what you make of it, and that applies to SecondLife too. Unfortunately, some residents feel the need to ruin it for others, by placing ads and other rubbish on their land. And I'm happy to read that LL intends to do something about it. Keep up the good work.

jill

In theory, yes.

However, banning ad farmers won't work, because they re-emerge in other forms using new exploits.

Then there is the issue of what to do with all of the unmarketable land. The huge volume of "checkerboards" cannot be fixed. Those lands and their adjoining lands have been rendered useless and unresellable. Some might be reclaimable by the neighbors, but on the grid as a whole, it's an unsurmountable task. The sheer volume of labor required by Linden staffers would be through the roof. Time and money better spend developing new technologies, as opposed to stop-gap or uneffectual measures.

SL2 would/should/could develop hard and fast rules about parcel sizes, subdivision and zoning. Accounts could be easily transferred from one grid to the other.

A new broom sweeps clean. Let the experiences of SL1 be the model for SL2.

Scaleability, folks. That's the ticket.

If you are getting spammed, IN SL then that is one thing, if these popups are coming on your browser, then your machine is infected, probably by the smithfraud trojan or a derivitive.
Download and run the free version of superantispyware.
Also run your antivirus, if you dont have one, install the free version of AVG.

On a side note, adfarms is not the only serious issue with SL.

This thread is only addressing part of the problem.

Copyright infringement, freebee reselling, texture theft, money laundering to name a few.

Again, SL2 seems to be the only solution.

It's interesting that value in managed land (zoning) is now recognized. LL does not have enough employees to manage the zoning themselves. They need residents to do it. However, residents won't do it unless they receive some kind of reward.

Estate management is a very good system that provides that incentive.

I see so kick everyone out, let the people in to make a profit cleaning up , hmmm isnt that what you used to do??

learning from the mistakes is the whole poi8nt, kick out the ad farms, and KEEP them out.

the ads on BTEGlobals sign towers are direct duplicate of popups in RL thats what I meant. I want the ad towers gone.

Perhaps the main focus of the people is a sexual frustration? Who knows....



As to whether it needs addressing... maybe / maybe not.



I do not have a premium account. Yes, I signed the ToS, but it does not mean I am age verified, it simply means I stated my age was 18 or over. I can own land, I can use and own adult content if I wanted. Age verification is not stringent and bypassable.

Further more, I can get a 'pay as you go' credit card (see http://www.mycashplus.co.uk/) and it did not do a proper age verification... just a tick this box thing. This can now allow me access to anyplace that needs age verification. Thus I can get into SL with this and be deemed an adult irrespective of whether I am or not.

Jack will be here participating as he is able to do so, but he is reading all comments.

I'm doing so as well.

I get that some of these issues are very frustrating, but I do need to ask you all to not use this thread to "name names". Personal attacks are never appropriate in the SL Forums.

And please do keep on topic.

We are concerned about these issues, and we're listening. I hope you can see that as a positive step.

Thank you!
-- Katt Linden

Not yet there isn't =)

Thanks for the reply Katt

I am reminded of being a pedestrian... and how drivers annoy me, then when I am driver, how pedestrians annoy me... What we have here with ban lines, are peoples personal feelings, and privacy lines being infiltrated by other people they do not want there. Not every has the ability to own an island... and to offer this as an alternative is not sufficient nor adequate as a solution. There needs to be another way to deal with that...

The issue here is a difference of perception and you have yours while another holds a different one. Each one is entitled to their individual view on this issue. I for one will ban and have banned those who enter my property and cause grief. I think there shuld be a system that can prevent a camera panning into a property too, and I am sure someone can come up with this as a security system....and I am sure it will sell well. I know I would buy one.

I suggest that you put in a complaint to LL about signs that do that, it has been stated that this is not allowed.

I would help out free of charge and am sure many others would to, I don't think LL would feel I was unbiased though as I feel great dislike for those individuals who extort everyone, LL already have many mentors who work for them with no recompense, why would people not also donate their time freely to help save the mainland, many users love secondlife and would gladly help myself included if LL wants me.

This system is tried and tested, the SL5B for instance, we all worked free of charge for the good of the show, I myself took a week off work and worked 14 hour days to get the show up, why?? because I LOVE SL. No other reason than that.

Yes, it is what I used to do. I'd be all for that again, but I doubt it would be a magic bullet to the current problem.

Travis Lambert was right by stating residents managing abandoned land is better than LL staff, mainly because of scaleability. Governor Linden is intended to be impartial to community needs. Straying from this principle causes other issues, such as favortism etc.

When the governor gets abandoned 16m and resells them for 1/sq m to a bot, nobody is served, not even the bot runner. It becomes yet another useless plot of land in their inventory. It takes the same amount of work to manage 512, 4096 etc..... except for near zero profitability. Their only option is to "dump it". This creates an endless supply of cheap land for the adcutters. This folks, is the underlying reason for their motives. Buy low, sell high. Plots that are not bought by adcutters often get abandoned back to the governor. Otherwise useable land adjoining these plots, also get abandoned again and again. Even groups like the Arbor Project, often consider abandoning huge tracts of land, because they are useless or otherwise unmarketable.

At the very least, public land offers some hope, that residents can particpate in cleaning up the mainland. But under the current system, that feature has been taken away from us.

Hear Hear ms. Merryman. I volunteer. Start the Corps.

Again this cry "SL is not a real world..." If you truly believe this then you are not really posting messages here, after all, it is only "pixels on a computer screen". Why do you constantly deny people reality? People get hurt in an online environment. Perhaps you are one and this is merely your way of deling with it? The idea was to create an environment for for pleasure, if another person prevents that, it is a tort, and therefore action can be taken. However, as Talurus (forgive the incorrect spelling) stated, the problem is proof. Getting the evidence may not be difficult, but using it and pressing charges or raising a suit against another is. There are a limited range of preventative measures, but this is not enough. There are the resultant groups like wiki.patrioticnigras.org and this type of thing needs stopping.



When viewing things like mentioned above, what would constitute a realistic response?



When, as previously stated, people go to extreme lengths then something more is needed, irrespective of the thousands.

First, the original statement regarding trespass which you ended up starting this debate over was about crossing over virtual property lines without permission. Second, you also have been tying in trespass from a completely different literal and legal definition of the word. Read the link you gave; it does NOT refer to Intellectual property in any way, shape, or form, with respect to "trespass upon rights". All trespass categories given are related to trespass on land, or trespass on REAL property rights. Seriously, read it again.

We have been trying to illuminate this red herring you keep wheeling out, but to no avail.



This is ENTIRELY incorrect. There SEVERAL international copyright treaties, most notably the Berne Convention, the UCCs, and the WCT.

As for registration, works do NOT have to be registered to be protected under copyright, and ONLY works of US Origin MUST be registered as due course of litigation. Hence:

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#cr



Except that it isn't ILLEGAL to trespass inside of a virtual world, and I would oppose any kind of legislation making it so. In addition, the whole notion that a participation-OPTIONAL IMAGINARY place holds the same level of threat and, thus, requires the same level of protection as real life, is completely absurd. Thus, any "psychological damage" resulting from "virtual trespass" wouldn't be actionable, since no crime was committed.

Even in the Megan Meier MySpace suicide case, where the "eggshell skull" rule would most definitely apply, the prosecutors in the case couldn't find any law broken. The Feds, though, seem to want to try and make SOMEthing, ANYthing stick so they can try the case. So far, that hasn't panned out too well.



I realize that there is a serious side to it. My point is that the burden is on the one experiencing, not the service, or anyone else using the service, PRECISELY because the use of the service is OPTIONAL. You CAN turn it off. You CAN walk away from it. You CAN use one of the many tools available to you to deal with it quickly and effectively. There is NO CAUSE to bring RL law and criminal consequences in a place where consent and optional use are the base paradigm.



I don't think it is so much inflammatory, as almost maddeningly obtuse.



I've used the internet since before it was called the "Internet", thanks. I never claimed it wasn't "real", I claim it is not the SAME as "real". Clearly, realized fantasy is quite "real", but it is STILL fantasy. Thus, the same legal paradigm that applies to the "real" is quite inappropriate for the "virtual". Something we also have been trying to get across to some folks in this thread and others for some time: SL is NOT RL, and just because something is good/bad or done a certain way in one doesn't automatically infer that it is, or should be, the same in the other.



If I "harass" you in RL, you can ignore me and/or walk away. If I harass you in SL, you can ignore me, walk away, mute me, ban me, eject me, teleport me home, freeze me and dress me up in a clown suit, or simply LOG OUT. In RL, participation is not voluntary. You are REALLY there, and your options (and safety) are limited. In SL, participation is COMPLETELY optional, you AREN'T really there, and your options and safety are far from "limited".

Two COMPLETELY different situations.



Yet, they aren't "real". If I shoot "you" (the virtual you, your avatar) with a virtual gun, even in a damage-enabled area, you don't start bleeding and die in RL. "Making a living", besides being exceedingly rare for the vast majority of residents, isn't a rationale which alters this truth.



See above. (and, yes, owning land is appropriate for the discussion, since it is about trespass) At the end of the day, you STILL have at least ONE control that cannot be subverted which you do NOT have as an option in real life: LOG OUT. That makes a LOT of difference in legal terms, and it should.



Restating the obvious. There is no need to state "it is my opinion" in front of everything I say which is not otherwise qualified, nor is it for you. Regardless, I maintain it IS trivial, and I believe that for not only myself, but others. Whether they choose to MAKE it non-trivial to themselves is another matter entirely. People can CHOOSE to take offense, even when there is none offered, or when it is completely optional to do so.

The problem is LL didn't state it properly so we still have the same problems, that initiated the ban in march, a job not very well done in this case Linden Labs.

I appreciate the gesture of this forum though by the way.
If a genuine attempt to action the majority of user complaints is going to be made then please accept my apologies for feeling doubt and distrust in you all.

I disagree. I seem to recall you visited Noonkkot when we were clearing up that adfarm in the middle, to trade your parcel out for one of Jasper's at the other end of the sim. Come back and have a look around now. There's still a few weird newbie boxes and builds, but it's a whole lot clearer than it was back then.

OK, agreed that the plots in themselves are useless, but they are also useless to the ad farms IF LL sticks to the TOS and bans harrassment and extortion.
All they need do is return the prims to the owners and set the land not for sale.
The ad farmers then have no choice but to sell the land at a reasonable price, or continue to pay tier on useless plots.
Again, the land bots may well grab the plots, but they would then also be useless to the land market sellers, and would have to be sold to locals at a reasonable price since they are the only ones that would have any use for the land.
Ban lines on those plots is also a form of harrassment, and that would have to be enforced also.

I dunno, a proactive management team with its eyes on the ball can see new "outcrops" of their silliness, and nip it in the bud before it becomes a problem. Estate managers do it all the time on private estates. People find new and novel ways to break the rules, and EOs/EMs quickly and decisively put a stop to it.

I also think that LL has an ace in the hole. One of the main disincentives to griefers and abusers is economic; when it costs money, sometimes lots of money, to be a jerk, people stop being jerks. That's why fines work so well in RL. With the adfarmers/extortionists losing their land, which is not an insignificant economic investment, every time they start up some new scheme, I think it will work well to break their will to continue.



This is not a problem. I have reintegrated over 1024sqm of microparcels back into real plots in my sim alone. It CAN be fixed, and I (and others) are more than capable of doing it. So, I don't believe it is insurmountable. There are residents who are quite willing to donate their time and money to "heal" the mainland. The Lindens just need to get rid of the problem children, reclaim their land, and dole it back out to people willing to take it upon themselves to clean up.

I agree Esther.

There is a huge cross-section of the community who would be happy to participate.

It's a huge labor pool worthy of consideration, much like education, mentors etc.

Volunteers need incentives though. One possibility could be a "tier-free" grace period for a couple of months for volunteers to reclaim the land and develop ways of re-integrating them back into the landscape.

These "tier-free" plots could get special tags (ie) resold only for 0L, no prims allowed unless joined to larger plots and returned to normal tier fees.

It won't stop new plots from being hacked, but it would contribute to cleaning up some of the mess. No large single measure will work entirely, but a combination of smaller measures could be effective.

Sorry, but this is not possible. You would have to modify the viewer AND the simulator to implement it, and any changes to the viewer can be gotten around.